Death Knight FAQ. Read this before posting! - Page 3

huntcaudata · 01/22/09, 2:59 PM

You couldn't be more wrong. What the hell happened to the tank community that all of a sudden everyone is confused about what Effective Health is, what Avoidance is, and what Mitigation is?

Avoidance = the chance to dodge/parry/be missed by an attack by a mob. This might also include the chance to fully resist a spell if we're talking about magic.
Mitigation = the ammount by which damage is reduced when an attack hits you (this includes block value (if block capped), armor, and talents or gear that reduce damage taken). Block value if not block capped could be thrown in here with some caveats, since it is a type of "mitigation"; other chance based mitigation could also be tossed in if you want to get complicated.
Effective Health = The ammount of raw damage a mob would need to deal to you in order to kill you if none of the attacks were avoided. This is a combination of Mitigation and Health, and has nothing to do with avoidance.

If you want to combine all of these, you should talk about Time to Live, which is the amount of time a tank would live, given certain assumptions (attack speed, raw damage per attack, etc.) As others have stated, this doesn't often make a lot of sense, since it is very rare that a tank will need to tank a mob without getting heals, but it's the only way that makes sense to combine Avoidance and Effective Health. A far better method is to talk about mitigation and avoidance seperately, and choose which to maximize and/or how to balance them based on the needs of the situation.

EDIT: Well, you changed your mind faster than I could post. This should really be standardized because since WotLK, I have seen countless people confusing these.

Mindaika · 01/22/09, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by huntcaudata

You couldn't be more wrong. What the hell happened to the tank community that all of a sudden everyone is confused about what Effective Health is, what Avoidance is, and what Mitigation is?

Avoidance = the chance to dodge/parry/be missed by an attack by a mob. This might also include the chance to fully resist a spell if we're talking about magic.
Mitigation = the ammount by which damage is reduced when an attack hits you (this includes block value (if block capped), armor, and talents or gear that reduce damage taken). Block value if not block capped could be thrown in here with some caveats, since it is a type of "mitigation"; other chance based mitigation could also be tossed in if you want to get complicated.
Effective Health = The ammount of raw damage a mob would need to deal to you in order to kill you if none of the attacks were avoided. This is a combination of Mitigation and Health, and has nothing to do with avoidance.

If you want to combine all of these, you should talk about Time to Live, which is the amount of time a tank would live, given certain assumptions (attack speed, raw damage per attack, etc.) As others have stated, this doesn't often make a lot of sense, since it is very rare that a tank will need to tank a mob without getting heals, but it's the only way that makes sense to combine Avoidance and Effective Health. A far better method is to talk about mitigation and avoidance seperately, and choose which to maximize and/or how to balance them based on the needs of the situation.

EDIT: Well, you changed your mind faster than I could post. This should really be standardized because since WotLK, I have seen countless people confusing these.

That is true. However, I still feel the EH > avoidance philosophy is like saying druid tank > warrior tank because druids have more HP. That being said, the Avoidance/Mitigation/EH descriptions should either be in the tanking FAQ.

Shadai · 01/22/09, 6:47 PM

okay, cleaned up some of the language in the original post. Added in windfury vs IIT. Added those definitions, which was a good idea.

now i wish some of those posters we've had lately would actually READ this before they post questions that are easily answered here.

Lazare · 01/24/09, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by crd

As long as we are beating the Runeforging dead horse i'd like to bounce my views off someone, let me know if i'm way off base:

I looked at it like this (SG=25def/2%stam, SS=4%parry):

For another approach, let's assume your exactly defence capped and are using SG. If you swap to SS you will need to find 25 defence skill, which means you'll need 7.69 [Thick Autumn's Glow]. So, let's say you swap 8 of them in for 8 [Subtle Scarlet Ruby]. You've gained 128 defence rating which is 3.12% avoidance (pre DR), plus an addition 4% avoidance from SS (no DR). You've lost 128 dodge rating which is 3.25% avoidance (pre DR) plus an additional 3% avoidance from SG (no DR) and 2% stamina (which per your calculation is about 50 stamina).

The net effect is to gain 0.87% avoidance but lose 50 stamina. (That's pre-DR, but DR hits both sides of the equation. True, dodge and defence have different curves, but to a first approximation it should cancel out.) Now if you further swapped out two more [Subtle Scarlet Ruby] for two [Solid Sky Sapphire] you'd lose another 0.81% avoidance (pre DR), and gain 48 stamina. In short, you end up down 2 stamina, but up something in the neighbourhood of 2 dodge rating. The difference seems too minor to really worry about.

Basically, if you're at the defence cap, and have a miraculous ability to regear to focus on any mix of dodge/stamina/defence, then the difference between SS and SG seems to be effectively nil; any difference is overwhelmed by differences in the exact defence and dodge DR curves, and in exactly how much stamina 2% works out to be.

So, if my napkin math above is accurate, at current gear levels if your under the defence cap then SG is clearly best. If your at the defence cap it's a wash. And if your over the defence cap SS is clearly superior. Sound right?

Edit: Let me rephrase. SG + 10 dodge gems seems to give the same amount of crit immunity, stamina, and avoidance as SS + 8 defence gems and 2 stam gems. (That assumes 2% stamina is about 48 stamina, and that the impact of DR on 10 dodge gems is close enough to the impact of DR on 8 defence gems that it cancels out.)

crd · 01/25/09, 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by Lazare

Edit: Let me rephrase. SG + 10 dodge gems seems to give the same amount of crit immunity, stamina, and avoidance as SS + 8 defence gems and 2 stam gems. (That assumes 2% stamina is about 48 stamina, and that the impact of DR on 10 dodge gems is close enough to the impact of DR on 8 defence gems that it cancels out.)

This is a very confusing post. First, 10 gems is every single gem in your gear on average. You will want socket bonuses for free stats on some items (why not?). Second, no matter how you look at it Swordshattering provides 1 extra percent of avoidance off the DR that can be made up elsewhere (stam gems or a trinket) which are not affected by DR. It's a win/win really.

Edit: to put it in similar sounding terms that I think you meant:
It will take you more than 2 gems to make up 1% avoidance lost from SGargoyle (at least 3)
It will take you -only- 2 gems to make up the 2% stam from -not- having SGargoyle
Thus, if you consider weapon enchant + 2 gems you will get more out of Swordshattering than Stoneskin Gargoyle

Fugazor · 01/25/09, 10:00 AM

I wrote little guide for my guild so I will share it here too. Keep in mind that I have most experience as 2h Unholy so other specs (especially 2h Blood) may not be 100% correct.

IT - Icy Touch
PS - Plague Strike
BS - Blood Strike
HS - Hearth Strike
SS - Scourge Strike
OB - Obliterate
PT - Pestilence
BB - Blood Boil
DnD - Death and Decay
CE - Corpse Explosion
HB - Howling Blast
FS - Frost Strike
DRW - Dancing Rune Weapon

Viable specs:
1) 2h Unholy - 17/0/54
2) 2h Frost - 21/50/0 or 17/54/0
3) 2h Blood - 51/13/7
4) DW - 0/32/39
Note: There are more specs for Frost, Blood and DW but I listed those that I know surely works.

2h Unholy
a) Spec:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

b) Glyphs:
- Major: [Glyph of Icy Touch], [Glyph of Scourge Strike], [Glyph of the Ghoul]
- Minor: [Glyph of Death's Embrace], [Glyph of Pestilence], [Glyph of Raise Dead]

c) Single target rotations:
IT/PS -> BSx2 -> SS then SSx3
- use IT/PS only if your diseases are about to fall off (>3 sec) otherwise spam SS and use blood runes on BS
- keep UB up, it is better than DC if it can tick
- use DC when you can, most likely when runes are on cooldown but don't let RP cap

d) AoE rotation:
DnD -> IT/PS -> PT -> SS -> PT -> SS -> PT -> repeat
- try to use UB as soon as possible
- throw DnD while running to target
- use BB instead of PT if targets went >15 yard range
- switch target when you use PT so that you won't need to reapply diseases with IT/PS more than once

e) Presence:
Blood Presence is only good presence for 2h Unholy build.

f) Macros:

#showtooltip Death Coil
/startattack
/cast [nomodifier] Death Coil; [modifier:shift,target=pet] Death Coil

If you press SHIFT you will heal pet with DC instead of damaging mob.

#showtooltip Scourge Strike
/startattack
/cast Blood Fury
/use 13
/use 14
/cast Rune Strike
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/cast Scourge Strike

Macro for lazy people. Whenever you will try to use SS it will also:
- try to cast BF orc racial (/cast Blood Fury)
- try to use trinkets (/use 13/14)
- try to cast Rune Strike
Remove what you don't need from it.

g) Pets
- Learn to use magical "passive" button on pet bar, it will make Ghoul come to you and save its life from things like void zones, blizzard etc.
- Turn off Leap and Gnaw auto-cast on your Ghoul for PvE.
- Gargoyle and Army of the Dead benefit from UP, BL and trinket procs. When summoned they do snapshot of your stats and use them until they die.

The best way to utilize those:
1) Wait for BL.
2) Wait for/use trinkets, FC etc. if it won't happen just follow before BL ends.
3) Switch to Unholy Presence, summon Gargoyle, summon AotD then switch back to Blood Presence.

If you don't have BL, don't really know when it will happen and don't want to wait (so you can use Garg twice per fight for example) then on pull summon Army in UP (then switch back to BP of course) and summon Garg only when trinket/FC pop.

h) Sigils
1) [Sigil of Awareness]
2) [Sigil of Arthritic Binding]
You should not use any other sigils.

i) Weapons and enchants
Slowest, highest dps possible 2 hander.
FC as rune enchant.

j) More info
Unholy DPS Discussion

2h Frost
a) Spec:
There is few specs and rotations but I will focus on one style only.

a.1) Example for 6xIT rotation:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

a.2) For OBx2 rotation you can either use same build as above and move points from Death Rune Mastery or use something like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

b) Glyphs:
- Major: [Glyph of Icy Touch], [Glyph of Obliterate], [Glyph of Frost Strike]
- Minor: [Glyph of Horn of Winter], [Glyph of Pestilence], [Glyph of Raise Dead]

c) Single target rotations:
c.1) 6xIT - You should use that one if you don't have [Sigil of Awareness] and [Betrayer of Humanity].
BSx2 -> OBx2 -> ITx6 -> repeat
- you need [Sigil of the Frozen Conscience] for that rotation
- you should use Unholy Presence
- you should try to fit FS into rotation, best it to use when KM procs
- try to fit HB procs when you can

c.2) Similar to above but with OB instead of IT, don't try it untl you get [Sigil of Awareness] and [Betrayer of Humanity].
BSx2 -> OBx2 -> ITx2 -> OBx2 -> repeat
- it should be doable in Blood Presence but you can start with Unholy
- you should try to fit FS into rotation, best it to use when KM procs
- try to fit HB procs when you can

d) AoE rotation:
IT -> PT -> HB -> OB -> repeat
- spam FS when possible
- when HB procs simply do 2x OB

e) Presence:
Unholy is considered better especially for 6xIT rotation. OBx2 rotation may be possible in Blood and give better dps but require more practice, skill etc. so I wouldn't try it for start.

f) Macros:

#showtooltip
/startattack
/cast [nomodifier] Frost Strike; [modifier:shift] Death Coil

If you press SHIFT you will use DC instead of FS.

#showtooltip Obliterate
/startattack
/cast Blood Fury
/use 13
/use 14
/cast Rune Strike
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/cast Obliterate

Macro for lazy people. Whenever you will try to use Obliterate it will also:
- try to cast BF orc racial (/cast Blood Fury)
- try to use trinkets (/use 13/14)
- try to cast Rune Strike
Remove what you don't need from it.

g) Pets
- Remember to use Ghoul it is nice dps boost even as "cooldown".
- Army of the Dead benefit from UP, BL and trinket procs. When summoned they do snapshot of your stats and use them until they die.

The best way to utilize that:
1) Wait for BL.
2) Wait for/use trinkets, FC etc. if it won't happen just follow before BL ends.
3) If you use BP remember to switch to UP before summon for extra dps for Army.

If you don't have BL etc. summon Army on pull in UP (then switch back to BP if you use it).

h) Sigils
- [Sigil of Awareness] for OBx2 rotation.
- [Sigil of the Frozen Conscience] for ITx6 rotation.
You should not use any other sigils.

i) Weapons and enchants
Slowest, highest dps possible 2 hander.
FC as rune enchant, Razorice is viable too if you have many FFB mages in raids and no one to bring it.

j) More info
Frosty DPS Discussion (no magic hat required)

2h Blood
a) Spec:
There is few specs and rotations but I will focus on one style only.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
You should move points from Death Rune mastery to, for example, Imp. Rune Tap if you will use OB rotation.

b) Glyphs:
- Major: [Glyph of Icy Touch], [Glyph of Obliterate], [Glyph of Blood Strike]
- Minor: [Glyph of Horn of Winter], [Glyph of Pestilence], [Glyph of Raise Dead]

c) Single target rotations:
c.1) If you don't have [Sigil of Awareness]:
IT/PS -> HTx2 -> OBx2 -> HTx4 -> repeat

c.2) If you have [Sigil of Awareness]:
IT/PS -> OB -> HTx2 -> OBx2 -> HTx2 -> repeat

d) AoE rotation:
DnD -> IT/PS -> PT -> OB -> HS -> OB+PT or HSx2+PT -> repeat and throw some DC around

e) Presence:
Blood Presence is considered better but some people are using Unholy too.

f) Macros:

#showtooltip Obliterate
/startattack
/cast Blood Fury
/use 13
/use 14
/cast Rune Strike
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/cast Obliterate

Macro for lazy people. Whenever you will try to use Obliterate it will also:
- try to cast BF orc racial (/cast Blood Fury)
- try to use trinkets (/use 13/14)
- try to cast Rune Strike
Remove what you don't need from it.

g) Pets
- Remember to use Ghoul it is nice dps boost even as "cooldown".
- Army of the Dead benefit from UP, BL and trinket procs. When summoned they do snapshot of your stats and use them until they die.

The best way to utilize that:
1) Wait for BL.
2) Wait for/use trinkets, FC etc. if it won't happen just follow before BL ends.
3) If you use BP remember to switch to UP before summon for extra dps for Army.
If you don't have BL etc. summon Army on pull in UP (then switch back to BP if you use it).

- Blood also have DRW, you should use it when you have 100 RP, trinket procs and possibly BL too.

h) Sigils
- [Sigil of Awareness] for OB rotation.
- [Sigil of Haunted Dreams] for HS rotation (staring sigil us good too).

i) Weapons and enchants
Slowest, highest dps possible 2 hander.
FC as rune enchant.

j) More info
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t38659-b...ched_yo_uncle/

DW
a) Spec:
There are other specs than 0/32/39 but I consider it as best due to NotD.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

b) Glyphs:
- Major: [Glyph of Icy Touch], [Glyph of Blood Strike], [Glyph of the Ghoul]
- Minor: [Glyph of Death's Embrace], [Glyph of Pestilence], [Glyph of Raise Dead]

c) Single target rotations:
IT/PS -> BSx2 -> HB -> IT/PS -> ITx2 -> HB -> repeat
- use DC when you can, most likely when runes are on cooldown but don't let RP cap

d) AoE rotation:
IT/PS -> PT -> HB -> PT -> repeat
- you might use DnD too
- drop some DC when you can

e) Presence:
Blood Presence is considered better but some use Unholy too.

f) Macros:

#showtooltip Death Coil
/startattack
/cast [nomodifier] Death Coil; [modifier:shift,target=pet] Death Coil

If you press SHIFT you will heal pet with DC instead of damaging mob.

#showtooltip Howling Blast
/startattack
/cast Blood Fury
/use 13
/use 14
/cast Rune Strike
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/cast Howling Blast

Macro for lazy people. Whenever you will try to use Howling Blast it will also:
- try to cast BF orc racial (/cast Blood Fury)
- try to use trinkets (/use 13/14)
- try to cast Rune Strike
Remove what you don't need from it.

g) Pets
- Learn to use magical "passive" button on pet bar, it will make Ghoul come to you and save its life from things like void zones, blizzard etc.
- Turn off Leap and Gnaw auto-cast on your Ghoul for PvE.
- Gargoyle and Army of the Dead benefit from UP, BL and trinket procs. When summoned they do snapshot of your stats and use them until they die.

The best way to utilize those:
1) Wait for BL.
2) Wait for/use trinkets, FC etc. if it won't happen just follow before BL ends.
3) Switch to Unholy Presence, summon Gargoyle, summon AotD then switch back to Blood Presence.

If you don't have BL, don't really know when it will happen and don't want to wait (so you can use Garg twice per fight for example) then on pull summon Army in UP (then switch back to BP of course) and summon Garg only when trinket/FC pop.

h) Sigils
[Sigil of the Frozen Conscience]
You should not use any other sigils.

i) Weapons and enchants
One-handers with highest dps possible. Speed doesn't matter much tho Slow/Fast is probably best.
FC on MH and Razorice on OH, if there is another DK with Razorice use Cineglancer on OH.

j) More info
Dual Wield Builds

OMG WHAT SPEC SHOULD I USE!?
All of them are close with most likely DW being ahead and Blood little behind. Choose one that brings buffs your raid needs and fits your playstyle best.

Buffs you bring:
1) 2h Unholy - 15% run speed, 13% magical damage
2) 2h Frost - Imp. WF (20% melee haste), 5% frost damage (optional)
3) 2h Blood - 10% AP
4) DW - Imp. WF (20% melee haste), 5% frost damage

To see what spec is doing best dps go here:
WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

Lazare · 01/25/09, 10:48 AM

Gems are used for ease of calculation. You need to get that defence from somewhere. If it isn't coming from gems it's coming from armour, gear, trinkets, whatever. Either way, you can't make up the loss of 25 defence skill in three gems if your right on the cap - you won't remain crit immune even if your avoidance doesn't change. Anyhow, while I think my math was right, I'm pretty sure I'm making it much too complicated. Let me try this a different way.

Imagine the two enchants were actually items.

SG would have 123 defence rating (the equivalent of 25 defence skill) and 50 stamina (a working estimate of the value of 2% stamina at current gear levels). Stamina is only 2/3 as expensive combat ratings, so the total item budget is 156.3.
SS would have 157.4 dodge rating (I'm assuming dodge rather than parry because they're effectively the same, and dodge is cheaper). The total item budget is 157.4.

In other words, the two enchants have almost exactly the same total item budgets - the key difference is how they spend those budgets. SG spends it on stam and defence; SS spends it on dodge. Since dodge rating is better than defence rating once over the defence cap, it follows that:

If your under the defence cap, and you can't easily regear/regem to reach it without making sacrifices, SG is best.
If your over the defence cap, and you can't easily regear/regem to reach it without making sacrifices, SS is best.
If your right at the defence cap, or you can easily regear/regem to reach it without making sacrifices, then it doesn't matter what you pick. You'll end up with the same total defence and the same total stats either way.

I think that makes a bit more sense.

(Of course, that's basically just a fancy way of saying that SG is good if you need defence, but not otherwise; which has been popular wisdom since SG was first announced...)

Shadai · 01/25/09, 1:33 PM

Wow I didn't mean to re-open any SG vs SS rune discussion....

To help clear the air about what I was trying to accomplish....

I was mearly trying to define the BASELINE between the two.

Let me show you an example.

DK A has the following (using round numbers to make the math easy):

24% Dodge
21% Parry
9% Miss (we don't actually know, but we do know it caps at 13%. 9% is probably pretty close)
540 Defense
Swordshattering Rune
(total avoidance = 54%)

Lets suppose DK A decided to switch weapon rune to SG. After the switch, his stats (BEFORE REGEMMING OR SWAPPING) would look like this:

25% Dodge
18% Parry
10% Miss
565 Defense
Stoneskin Gargoyle (extra 2% stam which is about 40-60 stam, your milage may vary)
(total avoidance = 53%)

I think everyone is good with that. We all know that there are no DR on either rune. However, what I think most people are missing is what happens if you drop that extra "defense" in the name of regemming. Huh?

Lets say DK A swapped out a few pieces of def gear out for threat and changed some gems, thus dropping him back to 540 defense. Again, without taking into consideration what those changes are, DK A has:

24% Dodge
17% Parry
9% Miss
540 Defense
Stoneskin Gargoyle (extra 2% stam)
(total avoidance = 50%)

So, same two tanks, at the same DEFENSE level of 540, a difference of 4% avoidance.

Now, before you start the angry replies.

YES I'm not taking into consideration WHAT gear your swapping in/out.

YES I'm not taking into condideration WHAT your regemming into.

YES I'm not taking into consideration if you get hit/expertise capped, or if you regemmed it all for dodge.

YES I'm not taking into consideration what you are gaining in total.

NO, I don't care, and I'm not clairvoyant.

I'm not going to balance this out for you, nor am I going to guess what swaps you are going to make or what things you are gaining nor what stamina this nets you nor what regemming strat you are going to use nor what other things you can think of. Know why? Cause each of our gearing its going to be a bit different from person to person. We all don't have the same shit. If we did, this arguement would be moot. Instead, its going to be different for everyone.

So to blindly claim that one is better then the other is foolish and stupid. But to blindly dismiss Swordshattering and ignore that in order to make it the 1% avoidance vs 2% stam arguement that everyone seems to be tossing around is equally stupid. This is because you are actually assuming 1% avoidance and 540 defense vs 2% stam and 565 defense.

Now, if you regem and reswap out def gear for better pieces that not only nets you stam but also avoidance and the respective hit/expertise caps, then that is up to you. Only you can make that call. I'm merely giving everyone the baseline of "this" is what you have at 540 with either rune. That way its easy to compare what you're gaining as you already know what you're losing.

I also realise that if in your furious regemming/reswapping it is entirely possible you are above 540 when you are done. And no, I'm not taking that into consideration either. This is all for you to figure out when you balance one over the other. Ideally, I recommend you figure this out on paper before you start blindly destroying gems cause someone on the internets told you SG is better.

I hope this helps clear any misunderstanding up.

secradonm · 01/25/09, 11:24 PM

Alright i must say i am new to the dk dps system. really i just need a dumbed down version of this.

All i am really looking for is a nice simple dps build while leveling up.

JALbert · 01/25/09, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

OMG WHAT SPEC SHOULD I USE!?
All of them are close with most likely DW being ahead and Blood little behind. Choose one that brings buffs your raid needs and fits your playstyle best.

Buffs you bring:
1) 2h Unholy - 15% run speed, 13% magical damage
2) 2h Frost - Imp. WF (20% melee haste), 5% frost damage (optional)
3) 2h Blood - 10% AP
4) DW - Imp. WF (20% melee haste), 5% frost damage

To see what spec is doing best dps go here:
WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

DW can pick up Unholy Aura easy with 31/40.

Lazare · 01/25/09, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Shadai

DK A has the following (using round numbers to make the math easy):

24% Dodge
21% Parry
9% Miss (we don't actually know, but we do know it caps at 13%. 9% is probably pretty close)
540 Defense
Swordshattering Rune
(total avoidance = 54%)

Lets suppose DK A decided to switch weapon rune to SG. After the switch, his stats (BEFORE REGEMMING OR SWAPPING) would look like this:

25% Dodge
18% Parry
10% Miss
565 Defense
Stoneskin Gargoyle (extra 2% stam which is about 40-60 stam, your milage may vary)
(total avoidance = 53%)

I think everyone is good with that. We all know that there are no DR on either rune. However, what I think most people are missing is what happens if you drop that extra "defense" in the name of regemming. Huh?

Lets say DK A swapped out a few pieces of def gear out for threat and changed some gems, thus dropping him back to 540 defense. Again, without taking into consideration what those changes are, DK A has:

24% Dodge
17% Parry
9% Miss
540 Defense
Stoneskin Gargoyle (extra 2% stam)
(total avoidance = 47%)

So, same two tanks, at the same DEFENSE level of 540, a difference of 7% avoidance.

Now, before you start the angry replies.

YES I'm not taking into consideration WHAT gear your swapping in/out.

YES I'm not taking into condideration WHAT your regemming into.

YES I'm not taking into consideration if you get hit/expertise capped, or if you regemmed it all for dodge.

YES I'm not taking into consideration what you are gaining in total.

NO, I don't care, and I'm not clairvoyant.

Oh dear, where to start? You have just taken two enchants which have ~1% avoidance difference, and calculated that they have a 7% avoidance difference.

First, your math is wrong. You correctly note that 25% + 18% + 10% = 53%, but you incorrectly note that 24% + 17% + 9% = 47%. It appears your double counting the effects of dropping 25 defence skill - it's 3%, not 6%.

Second, even using the correct values, saying that the actual avoidance difference is 4% if you drop 25 defence rating and don't pick up any additional stats is...not very helpful. Of course a DK who has stripped partially naked will have worse stats.

You don't need to be clairvoyant. You aren't going to drop 25 defence skill without picking up some stats, and any DK with an IQ above room temperature will pick up stats that he considers to be more valuable than the 25 defence rating (or he wouldn't have bothered to drop down to the defence cap). Therefore:

If the DK doesn't regear at all, the avoidance difference is 1%. As such it's the upper bound of the difference. (You'd only do this if you REALLY needed the defence to stay crit immune.)
Most likely, the DK gears for some mix he finds optimal (expertise, dodge, defence, stamina, hit, whatever). We've no idea what his stats will be, and don't care - all we know is that if he didn't value it higher than the 3% avoidance 25 defence skill would have given, he wouldn't have regeared.
And as a point of trivia, if the DK regears just right, he'll end up with the same stats he started with. Unsurprising, since the two enchants have the same effective amount of stats, just spent differently. (Very few DKs would be able or interested in making that particular gearing choice, but it's illustrative of how small the difference between SG and SS is.)

If you need defence, SG is great. Otherwise, your better off with SS, because defence isn't the best tanking stat once you're over the cap. Why make this hard?

Shadai · 01/26/09, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by Lazare

Oh dear, where to start? You have just taken two enchants which have ~1% avoidance difference, and calculated that they have a 7% avoidance difference.

First, your math is wrong. You correctly note that 25% + 18% + 10% = 53%, but you incorrectly note that 24% + 17% + 9% = 47%. It appears your double counting the effects of dropping 25 defence skill - it's 3%, not 6%.

Second, even using the correct values, saying that the actual avoidance difference is 4% if you drop 25 defence rating and don't pick up any additional stats is...not very helpful. Of course a DK who has stripped partially naked will have worse stats.

You don't need to be clairvoyant. You aren't going to drop 25 defence skill without picking up some stats, and any DK with an IQ above room temperature will pick up stats that he considers to be more valuable than the 25 defence rating (or he wouldn't have bothered to drop down to the defence cap). Therefore:

If the DK doesn't regear at all, the avoidance difference is 1%. As such it's the upper bound of the difference. (You'd only do this if you REALLY needed the defence to stay crit immune.)
Most likely, the DK gears for some mix he finds optimal (expertise, dodge, defence, stamina, hit, whatever). We've no idea what his stats will be, and don't care - all we know is that if he didn't value it higher than the 3% avoidance 25 defence skill would have given, he wouldn't have regeared.
And as a point of trivia, if the DK regears just right, he'll end up with the same stats he started with. Unsurprising, since the two enchants have the same effective amount of stats, just spent differently. (Very few DKs would be able or interested in making that particular gearing choice, but it's illustrative of how small the difference between SG and SS is.)

If you need defence, SG is great. Otherwise, your better off with SS, because defence isn't the best tanking stat once you're over the cap. Why make this hard?

Math in my head skills aside.... (which I fixed in the above post, btw)

You're completely missing the point. Its a bit further down from where you quoted. Comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure, they are both fruit, but one is completely different from the other. SS gives 4% avoidance over SG at the same defense. SG only gives 3% avoidance AS A DIRECT RESULT OF the 25 defense it grants you. Some people are walking around confused thinking it gives you 25 defense AND 3% avoidance. Whereas the comparison everyone makes that its 1% avoidance vs 2% stamina is fundamentally flawed. Its not 1% avoidance vs 2% stamina. Its 1% avoidance at 540 Defense vs 2% stamina at 565 Defense. If they don't know this, they aren't getting the entire picture.

However, you still seem to be coming to the general conclusion that you and I both agree on. I would take it a step further though. If you need the defense SG is great. If you don't, then you'll get better use out of SS. However, if you have some better gear that helps you reach hit/expertise caps or want to regem for more stamina or whatever, you can make a good case for SG. But that is individually up to each individual person and their gear selection. There are no blanket statements that one is better then the other made by me at any time.

Flamingcloud · 01/26/09, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Shadai

Math in my head skills aside.... (which I fixed in the above post, btw)

You're completely missing the point. Its a bit further down from where you quoted. Comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure, they are both fruit, but one is completely different from the other. SS gives 4% avoidance over SG at the same defense. SG only gives 3% avoidance AS A DIRECT RESULT OF the 25 defense it grants you. Some people are walking around confused thinking it gives you 25 defense AND 3% avoidance. Whereas the comparison everyone makes that its 1% avoidance vs 2% stamina is fundamentally flawed. Its not 1% avoidance vs 2% stamina. Its 1% avoidance at 540 Defense vs 2% stamina at 565 Defense. If they don't know this, they aren't getting the entire picture.

However, you still seem to be coming to the general conclusion that you and I both agree on. I would take it a step further though. If you need the defense SG is great. If you don't, then you'll get better use out of SS. However, if you have some better gear that helps you reach hit/expertise caps or want to regem for more stamina or whatever, you can make a good case for SG. But that is individually up to each individual person and their gear selection. There are no blanket statements that one is better then the other made by me at any time.

Your math might be fine, but the logic behind the conclusion is bad. The absolute WORST SG can be is 1% avoidance vs 2% stamina AND significantly better IBF mitigation. Which in my opinion is already better than 1% avoidance. If you choose to use superior overall low def items, re-gem, re-enchant, then your conclusion is that re-gemming is superior so you improved on the comparison. There is zero purpose comparing their item budgeting in a vacuum, 500 strength would be a high budget enchant, but it wouldn't be better for tanking.

So in conclusion, the only time SS > SG, is when you conclude that 1% avoidance > 2% stam and better IBF. The situation where you compare SS gemming stam vs SG gemming avoidance is not going to happen.

Also I am at almost 2400 unbuffed stamina as blood, this number of 40 stamina buffed from 2% stamina being thrown around is not very accurate in good gear. Anyone running SG with decent gear should be atleast 2500 buffed.

An even larger extension of this is that the people who have SS and don't have to gem defense are using inferior surviability items like [Signet of the Impregnable Fortress]

Pyros · 01/26/09, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

Your math might be fine, but the logic behind the conclusion is bad. The absolute WORST SG can be is 1% avoidance vs 2% stamina AND significantly better IBF mitigation. Which in my opinion is already better than 1% avoidance. If you choose to use superior overall low def items, re-gem, re-enchant, then your conclusion is that re-gemming is superior so you improved on the comparison. There is zero purpose comparing their item budgeting in a vacuum, 500 strength would be a high budget enchant, but it wouldn't be better for tanking.

So in conclusion, the only time SS > SG, is when you conclude that 1% avoidance > 2% stam and better IBF. The situation where you compare SS gemming stam vs SG gemming avoidance is not going to happen.

Also I am at almost 2400 unbuffed stamina as blood, this number of 40 stamina buffed from 2% stamina being thrown around is not very accurate in good gear. Anyone running SG with decent gear should be atleast 2500 buffed.

An even larger extension of this is that the people who have SS and don't have to gem defense are using inferior surviability items like [Signet of the Impregnable Fortress]

2% stamina on average gear is 40stam. In top gear, it's probably closer to 45. Then if you're blood spec or have votw, it is higher, but the number seems right for people that don't have JC/BS and/or BiS gear. That said, it's unbuffed stamina. Buffed it's not terribly hard to hit much higher levels which makes SG more valuable.

As for the ring comment, I'm not sure I understand it. Impregnable is one of the best ring in the game, it's not like there's tons of options. You sacrifice 34dodge rating for a 28def gain, a 11stam gain and 20expertise gain over the deflection band, which would be the closest to a survivability item for that slot, assuming you use worm band in the other. That's definitely not a bad survivability trade in my opinion. Also if you use SS, you have to gem for defense. Even counting the new sigil as part of your crit immunity, you still need around 75def rating, and while you can get 22 on chest and 16 on cloak, you're still short of either a few gems, or a trinket(which is a trade for 120stamina).

Mindaika · 01/26/09, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

Your math might be fine, but the logic behind the conclusion is bad. The absolute WORST SG can be is 1% avoidance vs 2% stamina AND significantly better IBF mitigation. Which in my opinion is already better than 1% avoidance. If you choose to use superior overall low def items, re-gem, re-enchant, then your conclusion is that re-gemming is superior so you improved on the comparison. There is zero purpose comparing their item budgeting in a vacuum, 500 strength would be a high budget enchant, but it wouldn't be better for tanking.

So in conclusion, the only time SS > SG, is when you conclude that 1% avoidance > 2% stam and better IBF. The situation where you compare SS gemming stam vs SG gemming avoidance is not going to happen.

Also I am at almost 2400 unbuffed stamina as blood, this number of 40 stamina buffed from 2% stamina being thrown around is not very accurate in good gear. Anyone running SG with decent gear should be atleast 2500 buffed.

An even larger extension of this is that the people who have SS and don't have to gem defense are using inferior surviability items like [Signet of the Impregnable Fortress]

At 2500 buffed stam, that ups the 2% to 50. Also, how do you know that people using SS and not gemming Def are using inferior items? You're still assuming that defense in one place (the weapon rune) is superior, or even different from, defense in another place.