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Old 08/24/09, 2:22 PM   #101
Asphyxialol
TEH DEEPZ!!!
 
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Human Paladin
 
Dalvengyr
The specs are all fairly well balanced now, probably more than ever in full honesty. As an example check out WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay. All of the current parses are from 3.2, and not 3.1. You will see, with the exception of a couple select fights (Hodir, XT 002) that every spec has solid representation in any given boss fight.

Essentially any fight where cleave will be available a good portion of the time Blood will come out on top (ie Mimiron). Any fight with a crit multiplier buff frost will do better (ie Hodir). When it comes to mass AoE then unholy comes out triumphant (ie Freya/Yogg). However, in general, each spec is competitive if played correctly.

This also comes down to raid makeup and buffs available to your group.

Personally being Blood/Frost dual spec is what works best for me (and I have hold the top spot or top 10 on most fights in 10m US with both specs - 25m gives me weird interface lag and we rarely have an optimal group comp). I don't enjoy pet management and there aren't any fights that it exceptionally exceeds dps over the other two specs, so I don't use unholy.

Last edited by Asphyxialol : 08/24/09 at 2:33 PM.

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Old 08/26/09, 3:03 PM   #102
Slider_1128
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Feathermoon
Originally Posted by Asphyxialol View Post
When it comes to mass AoE then unholy comes out triumphant (ie Freya/Yogg).
Why would Unholy still have best AoE? (Im sure your right just trying to understand) With the change to Unholy Blight the only think that would give them an advantage is Impurity. Morbidity is low enough in the tree that any spec can have it. Also Blood has increased dmg on Boil blood and if your unholy and frost runes are death runes these are more AoE's you can trigger. As for Frost, it only has howling blast but i thought that would be enough to also give it increased AoE dmg. Unholy does have Corpse Explosion, but is it always a viable talent. Lots of creatures count as elementals or Mechincal so i wouldnt conside it something you can use all the time. Being i dont do alot of upper end raiding (25 man naxx is extent of my experiance) I can be wrong on the Corpse Explosion.

Guess my question is why does it work out that unholy has better aoe dmg?

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Old 08/26/09, 8:57 PM   #103
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
Unholy has the strongest diseases (impurity, crypt fever, RoR, so on). Diseases are one of the highest parts of any spec's AoE dps. That's one for Unholy.

Unholy has the strongest Death and Decay (not because of morbidity, but because of impurity, primarily). That's two for Unholy.

Unholy has Wandering Plague. Wandering Plague is pretty huge. It can easily be 10% of your dps in an AoE situation, potentially higher without much trouble. Not only that, but all of the damage it does is essentially passive (i.e, gcd free). That's another point in Unholy's favor.

Unholy can spread Ebon Plague in an AoE fashion. Moonkins and Locks can't do their 13% magic damage debuffs to multiple targets with any amount of ease, so not only does this boost Unholy's AoE by a lot, but it boosts the AoE of the entire raid. This is a huge point in Unholy's favor.

Stronger Diseases/Wandering Plague (the two go hand in hand) and Ebon Plague/Pest are the primary reasons why Unholy still wins the AoE medal. Ebon Plague alone is enough, it's just highly underrated/underacknowledged.

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Old 09/01/09, 4:21 AM   #104
Jackinthegreen
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Twisting Nether
I'd like to add in a little tidbit about (ab)using AMS for TotC, since the other threads don't have anything about these fights yet:

Faction champs: Plenty of opportunities to use it here especially if you're taunting a magic-user. If you find you don't need it for an ohshit button, might as well use it for RP.


Twin Valkyr: Possible use during Light or Dark vortex, but will annoy your healers.

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Old 09/03/09, 1:41 PM   #105
Buffie
Von Kaiser
 
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Goblin Shaman
 
Akama
Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
Twin Valkyr: Possible use during Light or Dark vortex, but will annoy your healers.
Rather than this, I'd suggest using it to soak balls heading for the boss.

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Old 09/14/09, 4:14 PM   #106
Silarn
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Argent Dawn
My group chooses to simply soak the Touch damage on Hard Val'kyr, so I try to use AMS for when I get one of these debuffs. The only other time it might come in handy is if a ball slips past your 'filter' group and might kill you if it hits.

That being said, you take constant damage throughout the fight so if your group runs PERFECT, no bad balls slip through, and you opt to remove the Touch debuffs, you might as well use AMS any time off cooldown for a bit of extra RP.

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Old 09/24/09, 8:07 AM   #107
radon
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
The Venture Co (EU)
Hello, i have a question about expertise. I am DW frost dps spec, i am orc and i have a main hand axe / off hand sword. My character sheet says Expertise: 19 / 14. Since i got threat of thassarian, when i OB / BS / FS, does it take my main hand or off hand expertise into account ? If neither (?), what is my expertise for special attacks ? (Special attacks make a single attack unlike mutilate, so you cant hit main hand / get dodge offhand i assume. i got confused in here)

Last edited by radon : 09/24/09 at 8:13 AM.

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Old 10/02/09, 10:07 AM   #108
Shadai
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Rivendare
@ radon Each weapon is the listed expertise. Main hand 19, off 14. Each time you swing with that weapon, it uses those numbers to determine a hit, including your overall hit rating. Usually ability swings will key off the main hand weapon. Unless it is specifically different, it should still key off that main weapon.


On another note, I've updated the post to reflect the current changes. As always, if I missed something, please let me know.

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Old 10/12/09, 7:05 PM   #109
Knaledge
Glass Joe
 
Undead Death Knight
 
Maiev
I have messaged a few people and dug through skeletonjack.com, wowpro, and EJ. I just am a bit lost in terms of "starting out tanking".

At level 68, I have become comfortable with spec/rotation for Unholy 2H DPS and now want to occupy my second talent spec slot with a tanking spec. However, most of the information I have come across is for raiding at 80 and even then they take the tone of "well, play how you want to play and choose a spec that fits you ^__^"

Really, is there something better than that? I am hoping for perhaps some indicators as to what to build out at 70, what to build out at 80, and all of this being considered for 5-mans, pre-raids, and the like.

This post may be reaching and... yeah it's basically a request but - you guys seem so knowledgeable! And I am positive if you spent just a few moments throwing something basic together, this thread would only benefit.

Thanks

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Old 10/14/09, 6:21 AM   #110
Pintofbrew
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Orc Death Knight
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
5mans at pre-80 are irrelevant. You can zerg through them and as long as Frost Presence is on, you're effectively a tank. Not that it makes any difference. Read the first post of this excellent thread, it's specifically designed for what you ask. The exact same rules that apply to end-game applies to casual pre-raid gaming. Get the Def Cap, then Dodge>Parry>Miss and more Stamina. The only particularity about casual tanking is you'll be on trash most of the time, so you may benefit from a slightly more AoE-based spec, like frost with glyph of HB and glyph of DnD.

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Old 12/12/09, 3:26 PM   #111
Shadai
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Rivendare
updated for 3.3 patch

Death Knight Questions? Here are some answers!

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Old 12/12/09, 3:41 PM   #112
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
The Unholy and Frost dps thread links link to the old Unholy/Frost threads, not the new ones.

I would question the usefulness of the tanking gem section. Strength gems? ArP gems? AP gems? If people are interested in just knowing all the gems available, they can scroll through Wowhead as well as anyone. There's really no point listing 80% of those when they're just horrible choices for tanking. That's how the other threads get some of the inane questions they get =/.

Unholy tanking spec with GoSS, but also Epidemic? No Viscous Strikes?

Some information is still plain outdated - namely a lot of the glyphs (GoUB, for example).

Other stuff, but yeah, a lot of the information in this post is questionable at best. I don't mean to be picky or critical, but for a thread which is supposed to answer most basic questions and therefore provide some base level of knowledge among those new to the class, it just seems more misleading and plain incorrect than anything and, as such, moderately pointless.

And, besides, it's not so much a DK FAQ as it is a DK Tanking FAQ.

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Old 12/14/09, 6:52 AM   #113
Shadai
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Rivendare
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
The Unholy and Frost dps thread links link to the old Unholy/Frost threads, not the new ones.
Fixed, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Originally Posted by Consider View Post
I would question the usefulness of the tanking gem section. Strength gems? ArP gems? AP gems? If people are interested in just knowing all the gems available, they can scroll through Wowhead as well as anyone. There's really no point listing 80% of those when they're just horrible choices for tanking. That's how the other threads get some of the inane questions they get =/.
I put it there because I found searching though wowhead time consuming and annoying. I'm sorry you don't like it. And those gems you are questioning the use of are for increasing threat. Everyone's gear is different.

Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Unholy tanking spec with GoSS, but also Epidemic? No Viscous Strikes?
This is not an endgame thread. They are starting specs. They aren't intended to be the be all, end all. The endgame specs are located in Suno's thread. Why reinvent the wheel?

Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Some information is still plain outdated - namely a lot of the glyphs (GoUB, for example).
You were right about some of the glyphs, I fixed those as well. See how this works?

Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Other stuff, but yeah, a lot of the information in this post is questionable at best. I don't mean to be picky or critical, but for a thread which is supposed to answer most basic questions and therefore provide some base level of knowledge among those new to the class, it just seems more misleading and plain incorrect than anything and, as such, moderately pointless.
But you are being picky and critical. But thank you for your comments, I'm fixing what I can to make it a better post. I'm sorry you don't like it. Thanks for taking the time to tear down work that you didn't do.

Originally Posted by Consider View Post
And, besides, it's not so much a DK FAQ as it is a DK Tanking FAQ.
Right at the beginning I say DPS section is further down, and provide links to the appropriate places where the most knowledgeable people can help. Its a good starter point for anyone new to the class. That was its intention.

Death Knight Questions? Here are some answers!

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Old 12/14/09, 8:15 AM   #114
 Darkside
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Kroot
Orc Death Knight
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Shadai View Post
I put it there because I found searching though wowhead time consuming and annoying. I'm sorry you don't like it. And those gems you are questioning the use of are for increasing threat. Everyone's gear is different.
As a tank you shouldn't be gemming those things, ever. You're see better returns on threat if you gem hit or expertise, since they will prevent you from having threat "holes" that come from missing multiple attacks in a row.

Three steps to a better EJB experience: Step One, Step Two, Step Three

And remember:
Originally Posted by Zeroblack View Post
The Ignore functionality doesn't work if you guys keep quoting him.

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Old 12/14/09, 2:21 PM   #115
Shadai
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Rivendare
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
As a tank you shouldn't be gemming those things, ever. You're see better returns on threat if you gem hit or expertise, since they will prevent you from having threat "holes" that come from missing multiple attacks in a row.
And I explained exactly that in the sections of hit and expertise.

While I agree that you shouldn't be gemming those things, everyone's gear is different. Most tanks (myself included) get all the expertise and hit from gear. I've gemmed almost exclusively for stamina now. But if I was having threat problems, those would be gems I would look to help increase threat. I'm not saying they are good, nor am I saying you should. I'm simply pointing out these are some gems you can consider.

Look, if everyone is having a problem with a table I created for easy gem reference for those people without jewelcrafting and who do not want to scroll through all of Wowhead's gems to find the one they're looking for, then the answer is simple. I'll remove it. I'm not here to start fights. I'm here to help make everyone's job easier. And if you think its not helping, I'll delete it.

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Old 12/14/09, 3:38 PM   #116
Talgog
Don Flamenco
 
Human Death Knight
 
Archimonde
Originally Posted by Shadai View Post
While I agree that you shouldn't be gemming those things, everyone's gear is different. Most tanks (myself included) get all the expertise and hit from gear.
I'm pretty sure it's not possible to actually hard cap expertise for a DK tank without a very deliberate attempt at it to the expense of all else. The boss mob has 14% parry; at the soft cap where you have knocked off the 6.5% dodge, you still have 7.5% boss chance to parry. As DPS, the only number one cares about is 6.5% because you damn well shouldn't be in front of the boss in the first place. As a tank, you have no choice.

So there's no realistic point where expertise stops improving threat.

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Old 12/15/09, 11:58 AM   #117
Rofy
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Sen'jin
Information about hit on Dual Wield tank X Two Handed tank is a little imprecise and missleading.

While you do need 27% to cap dual wield white strikes, you just need the same 8% to cap all yellow strikes, that are a larger contribution to your threat (including Rune Strike).

If specced into Nerves of Cold Steel, the yellow cap goes to 5%.

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Old 12/25/09, 6:47 AM   #118
s[orc]ery
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Death Knight
 
Frostmourne
As you have stated, between effective health and avoidance one is not strictly superior to the other. However I think the effective health versus avoidance argument can be better illustrated in terms of types of damage taken, and the particular scenarios where one has been used over the other.

Avoidance
Because stamina stacking has been the staple for so long, many people have forgotten why and when avoidance tanking becomes superior. This mainly dependent on the type of damage intake you are facing. Some examples of when avoidance tanking was used in top-end raiding scenarios are:
- on M'uru in Sunwell, the Shadowsword Berserker adds hit very hard and extremely fast. This occurred over a relatively long period of time, which resulted in healer mana issues from the sheer Damage Taken per Second (DTPS) on the tank, as well as unpredictable rapid burst damage from up to 5+ melee hits. These factors made your avoidance set preferable to your stamina set.
- on Brutallus in Sunwell, who also hit very hard and very fast, because he hit so hard that within the gear levels available at the time stacking stamina would not help the tank survive an additional hit.
- for Anub'arak(25H) add tanking, as warriors and paladins could use a specially made avoidance set to reach 'unhittable' (or close enough to it) to take very little damage from the burrowers.

At the end of the day, avoidance sets have been used where damage intake consisted of fast and numerous melee hits. The extra avoidance both decreased the possibility of multi-hit burst combos and reduced healer mana consumption from the tank's overall DTPS.

(NB: Just because a boss or adds hit(s) you quickly and often, does not automatically mean that avoidance is best. You must take into account all of the sources and types of damage in the encounter; and gear first and foremost to prevent burst damage from killing you, and then move away from that if the encounter requires. For instance, Algalon does hit quickly, but much of the burst is unavoidable damage either from the magic AOE damage in the encounter or Quantum Strike/Phase Punch. An encounter such as that favored a balanced tanking set rather than an overly stamina biased or avoidance biased set. This is also why many people advise new tanks to gear for effective health over avoidance because more often then not the danger of being bursted down at low gear levels is much higher than the danger of the healer going oom)

Effective Health
Effective health stacking is, on the other hand, currently the staple for gearing for most raiding tanks because of the risk that every new boss or encounter we face will have more burst damage than the last. In addition, effective health stacking can actually be a preferable option for reducing healer mana consumption if you can pass a threshold where a healer can safely reactively heal and conserve mana instead of being required to constantly use less efficient faster heals in anticipation of spike damage (already covered). Against slower hitting bosses the difference becomes very apparent.

Stamina improves your survivability against damage which isn't avoidable such as magical or damage over time effects, or special unavoidable melee hits such as Algalon's Quantum Strike; whereas extra avoidance will not help. Stamina-biased gearing improves your survivability in the largest number of scenarios, and other types of gearing are seen as more or less for niche encounters, which is why most tanks are proponents of stam-stacking.

Armor is somewhere between the two, as it mitigates melee hits and certain spells which deal physical damage but not other types of damage. The benefit of armor (and spell resistance) is that it both makes you a better tank (reducing DTPS) and increases your Effective Health, whereas Stamina only increases your Effective Health, and Avoidance only reduces your DTPS. Typically stamina will be preferred on bosses which have combined magic and physical damage combos on the tank; however armor trinkets have been used in the past against high physical damage bosses where healer mana is a concern and/or the armor trinket simply gave you more EH. Items which have both high stamina and bonus armor are usually considered Best-in-Slot for their gear level (reflected in the current 3.3 BiS list; Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking).

Spell Resistance is used in niche scenarios where spell damage is a large part of the encounter, either in overall damage taken or in bursts. Most recently, tanks on Anub'arak(25H) have used [Recipe: Flask of Chromatic Resistance], [Arcanum of Toxic Warding], [Scroll of Enchant Cloak - Superior Nature Resistance], and [Fur Lining - Nature Resist] to mitigate Leeching Swarm due to its extremely high damage. Due to the new wotlk resistance mechanics, spell resistance increases your effective health against magic damage because there is a reliable minimum % you can resist based on your current resistance levels, and actual amount resisted varies above that level (Source: WotLK Resistance Thread). Spell Resistance is also the best form of mitigation against elemental melee strikes (those which deal magic instead of physical damage). These types of attacks are both avoidable and resistable but bypass armor. Examples of when this occurs include Lava Blazes on Sartharion, and Hodir under the effect of Frozen Blows.

Spell resistance should not be overlooked when making gearing choices, but is generally geared for in highly niche scenarios such as the example given above. An exception to this is Signified Ring of Binding which is one of the best tanking rings in the game because of its combined stamina, high armor, and +30 spell resistance.

(NB: Many boss spells have been designed to bypass spell resistance, entirely dependent on the specific encounters/spells themselves. Most notably in current raiding are those which are mixed spell-types such as Mimiron's Plasma Blast which is classed as 'Spellfire' damage, and Anub'arak's Freezing Slash spell which is classed as 'Froststrike' damage and cannot be mitigated by frost resistance nor armor.)

Other factors
Other factors to take into account are how tanking stats interact with the particular class and spec, such as health increasing the effectiveness of AMS/VB, Defense increasing the effectiveness of IBF, Avoidance increasing the effectiveness of Bone Shield, and so on. Blood Deathknights for instance gain more auxiliary benefits from stamina than the other specs.

Keep in mind also that a correct analysis of damage taken in an encounter is also dependent on the usage of tanking cooldowns, buffs and debuffs, and parts of the encounter itself. For instance Gormok the Impaler(H) is balanced around tanks rotating mitigation cooldowns to survive impale/melee combos in the latter half of the fight. Thorim(H) is dependent on tanks using mitigation cooldowns to survive the initial Unbalancing Strike hit as well as an immediate taunt from the other tank to avoid him taking hits under its -defense skill debuff.
Almost all bosses which deal high melee damage are balanced around the raid having a fully talented Attack Power debuff(Demoralizing Shout, Attack Speed Debuff (Judgements of the Just), and a physical% reduction buff (Inspiration). These are the main ones but there are many others. A quick tank death in many circumstances can be related to one of or a combination of these or other needed buffs/debuffs dropping off. The point is that the fact of a tank's death is not necessarily dependent on his gear choices (although it often is). Much of avoiding unnecessary damage is about executing the encounter correctly.

Last edited by s[orc]ery : 12/25/09 at 11:44 PM. Reason: additional information, formatting

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Old 01/08/10, 12:35 PM   #119
Melador
Mercurial Rapper
 
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Troll Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
First of all thanks for the guide.

I did see one thing in the first post that was confusing, not sure if it was just a typo or what -- one Stamina vs Avoidance, you say: "More Stamina does not make you a better tank...Avoidance (or hit/expertise, depending on how you gem) does make you a better tank...My point here is one is not better then the other." But given what you've written, it does sounds like you feel that Avoidance is better than Stamina.

I'd also agree with the comments about the gem section. Listing gems that no tank in their right mind would use is just confusing.

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Old 01/21/10, 9:46 AM   #120
draxar
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Nagrand
Originally Posted by Rofy View Post
Information about hit on Dual Wield tank X Two Handed tank is a little imprecise and missleading.

While you do need 27% to cap dual wield white strikes, you just need the same 8% to cap all yellow strikes, that are a larger contribution to your threat (including Rune Strike).

If specced into Nerves of Cold Steel, the yellow cap goes to 5%.
Yea, iirc the only time any class actually aimed to cap white hits on DW was rogues in Vanilla.

While people should be aware of the 27% hit requirement, it's by far anything to aim for.

Personally I'm in the process of replacing my Paladin Tank with my DK and with my current gear (Triumph Badge + ICC 5 man drops) am currently only at 177 Hit rating, but with Cold Steel and 3/3 Virulence (placeholder while I acquire more +hit) I have no issues with threat or specials missing.

The 3/3 Virulence was rather easy to fit into the spec also:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

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Old 02/14/10, 1:20 AM   #121
Arcel
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Alterac Mountains
Glyph of Death Grip for leveling

I would like to add that [Glyph of Death Grip] is an excellent (and extremely satisfying) leveling glyph to the Glyphs section at the bottom of FAQ.

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