If you spec for a cooldown but don't pop it, what's the point? You can only get x DPS on Patchwerk because you are going balls out with every cooldown you have, hitting them when you get the most benefit out of it.
You might as well factor out random procs like Mirror of Truth, because there's a huge difference between a 10 second proc going off right when you're about to hit the heavy-hitting part of your rotation (i.e. Obliterate/Scourge Strike/Howling Blast/Heart Strike) versus the weaker part or the downtime (Death Coils, Icy Touch on certain builds, Plague Strike).
Although really, I don't even know what you mean by "actual DPS". I thought "actual DPS" was the amount of damage you deal in the duration of the encounter.
Also for some reason I keep thinking this thread should be called "America's Next Top Raid DPS".
The issue is trying to define a reliable metrics to directly compare the DPS of various specs. Patchwerk is the standard fight for obvious reasons. However, the same person with the same spec using the same rotation can see wildly varying DPS if you change the fight duration, so comparing two different specs without accounting for these other variables doesn't help towards answering the all-important question.
Leaving out gargoyle from a DPS fight will always undervalue any spec that includes gargoyle. It is that simple. You cannot do a fair test by leaving out any cooldowns.
If you spec for a cooldown but don't pop it, what's the point? You can only get x DPS on Patchwerk because you are going balls out with every cooldown you have, hitting them when you get the most benefit out of it.
You might as well factor out random procs like Mirror of Truth, because there's a huge difference between a 10 second proc going off right when you're about to hit the heavy-hitting part of your rotation (i.e. Obliterate/Scourge Strike/Howling Blast/Heart Strike) versus the weaker part or the downtime (Death Coils, Icy Touch on certain builds, Plague Strike).
Although really, I don't even know what you mean by "actual DPS". I thought "actual DPS" was the amount of damage you deal in the duration of the encounter.
Also for some reason I keep thinking this thread should be called "America's Next Top Raid DPS".
I would agree with this. Why bother speccing for an ability you'll never use? I think it's impossible to get an exact figure on it. You have to keep in mind gear will vary drastically as will the raid circumstances. I think the best that we can hope for with testing is just a generally glimpse of what should be the best under ideal conditions.
I'm a long time reader and first time poster. I just wanted to ask if you guys wanted to post your dps on Heroic Dummy since I can only do patchwerk once a week and I'm messing around with many specs.
I totally agree with you that we need to have all discussion /numbers on the same boss dummy.
And from boss dummy, my findings are:
I run each rotation for at least 1000 special attacks.
What I found is that I have more dps at unholy presence and this contradicts the Death Knight DPS compendium.
This fact already bothered me for a while, since I have 2 other unholy DK in raids also output in unholy presence and they are doing much better DPS than me while I was in frost build or blood build.
I believe that the thumb rule "blood presence dps > unholy presence dps" need to be discussed again.
Boss dummy tests are worthless, because they imply that all builds will scale exactly the same with raid buffs and debuffs, and many of us simply do not have access to boss dummies above 35% HP, which benefits merciless combat builds, or above 1 HP, which strongly devalues necrosis.
I see a lot more 21/50 than 17/54 builds. Are we taking back our stance on having 6 death runes? Still seems sloppy and redundant to me.
Currently 2h Unholy. Nothing to report, but I was frost spec for a while and would love to know how its doing now. (Switching to unholy netted me nearly 1k of dps increase :P)
It has been stated many times in many different threads in the DK forums. The Training Dummy is your least accurate form of testing DPS. Period. It should simply be used to test your rotations, and check certain mechanics that are either normalized (BCB and necrosis) or advance externally to raid buffs (KM).
The purpose of this thread is to find TOP DPS, some people and their guilds will not kill Patchwork in under 3min, some people do not have the availability or the skill to run a 25man. They are not the Top percentile. Every spec can utilize AoTD with no reason why you would not use it at the start of an encounter. Ghoul, Gargoyle, DRW are all attributes that make the specific specs stronger or weaker. Not including them in a parse is stupid, you no longer are finding the best possible outcome, but merely what happens when you stand and smack an enemy for white damage for 3min.
I wanted patchwork because it is an encounter that most people will kill within 3-4 minutes, that entire guilds push for maximum every week to see who tops the charts and who's becoming a bench warmer the next and those that just want an achievement. Dummies do not pressure you to play your best, you can reset and try again if you make a mistake and most importantly, there are a lot of abilities that scale differently with buffs.
It is not too much to assume that your 25man will have an enhance shammy for example. 20% melee haste and 10% AP
If I'm 2H unholy iI don't benefit from wither of those on a dummy, but i have CoE up
If I'm 32/39 I don't benefit from CoE or the AP
If I'm 51blood I don't benefit from WF or CoE
Get my point yet?
Less QQ, this topic was NOT created for it, post your numbers keep your opinion to yourself, there are other threads where that is for.
Boss dummy tests are worthless, because they imply that all builds will scale exactly the same with raid buffs and debuffs, and many of us simply do not have access to boss dummies above 35% HP, which benefits merciless combat builds, or above 1 HP, which strongly devalues necrosis.
Agreed. The reality is we have to look closely at each parse to determine the impact of fight duration, gargoyle strength etc. before declaring a best build. Looking at the majority of the numbers being posted, I am really not seeing a surefire winner. All the builds seem to be relatively close and considering the trivial content at this point I think it is safe to just relax a little bit.
With the great strength and balance being shown by "all" the builds, it puts us in a great position to either play the spec we enjoy or play a build our raid needs. In my case, we need imp. icy talons and unholy aura and there is a viable build to fill that role.
Lastly, while heroic dummies are a mediocre indicator of raid dps, I don't feel that Patchwerk is the end all either. Although it does provide ideal circumstances for a "benchmark", most fights are not like it so take into consideration how your build will perform in less than ideal circumstances. The goal is to kill bosses, all bosses.
My comments are not directed at anyone and not meant to offend. I am reacting to the general feeling I am getting from the DK community. Take from them what you will, if anything at all.
Leaving out gargoyle from a DPS fight will always undervalue any spec that includes gargoyle. It is that simple. You cannot do a fair test by leaving out any cooldowns.
Simple solution is to simply model the gargoyle dmg over 3 minutes. Total gargoyle damage / 180 (maybe more if you want to consider waiting for procs) = added DPS.
AotD started about a second into pull because tanks pulled with no warning - lost some dps time here.
25 man all content (sarth+2)
21/50/0 2h; Death's Bite + Fallen Crusader; Sigil of Awareness. No DRM as I was using the "old" OB OB IT BS -> OB OB BS IT rotation (Frost Strike woven in more or less between every rune attack)
Glyphs: IT, Oblit, FS
4pc t7 bonus
**Unholy Presence for the entire run.** Every test I did of blood vs unholy came out with unholy on top; it seemed impossible to dump all RP + handle rime procs + pop unbreakable armor + HoW with a 1.5 sec gcd. Possibly it is better to simply ignore those things and run blood, but after hours on the dummies I could not make blood come out on top of unholy.
Last edited by CureFC : 01/25/09 at 6:28 AM.
Reason: wrong url
I think if people want to continue to use Patchwerk as a METRIC you need to use this formula. I am removing AoTD completely because there is no reason it needs to be included to have an accurate metric. Once again, formula should give an accurate metric of comparing builds in a vacuum.
21/50/0 4pc T7(,5).
OB OB IT BS dump - OB OB BS IT dump, without any lag/reaction, gives you about 5 fs to fit in perfectly. It genereates 208 RP (with IT glyph).
Going for UP, it will give you 218 RP instead of simply 208 (adding in HoW), meaning that you can push out 1, 75 more FSs per rotation as well as 0,3 HB uses due to rime (15% on 2 ITs per rotation, means 1 procc every 66,6 secs). Auto attacks will do "roughly" the same damage, I won`t look at them now. So you got 15% of 5 FSs, 4 OBs, 2BSs and 2 ITs compared to 1,5 FSs and 0,3 HBs. This should most clearly be won by the BP.
The main problem now is lag, when you use BP, you got a total of 0,5 seconds of time for lag/reaction, every 20 seconds, which is of course too less. Considering you got a GC of 1,6 Seconds is much more likely, thus giving you 13*0,1 seconds of loss, meaning you lose 0,8 seconds per rotation, if you simply keep following it. That would be a los of 4% of damage, meaning BP just dropped to 11% (oh and you lose a bit more, but keep it simple now ) . So you roughly lose 4% of damage per 0,1 second of delay on a cast. As we can see, the more time you lose on your styles the superipr UP get`s and it get`s better very fast, as you still got your 1,75 FSs, 0,3 HB, free HoW refresh and maybe other stuff like getting a mate to be a cool ghoul or the like.
Things to consider as well:
- Ghoul glyph, instead of IT glyph, as you got enough RP, when using BP
- Movement problems other things that let you abort/pause rotation, both will most likely benefit UP
- huge lag - when you got a gc of 5 seconds and you shouldn`t wipe, BP is the way to go
Overall it`s a great question if UP beats BP, but it will depend on lag and reaction time a lot, as they aren`t that much away from each another.
I think if people want to continue to use Patchwerk as a METRIC you need to use this formula. I am removing AoTD completely because there is no reason it needs to be included to have an accurate metric. Once again, formula should give an accurate metric of comparing builds in a vacuum.
What about Heroism, Hysteria, DRW? All those effects strongly gain by having a shorter fight. Even small stuff like trinket cds is biased towards a fight that lasts slightly less than 3min (since you can use a 2min cd trinket twice). If you want it to make it any more complicated you should involve RNG. How do we judge someone getting 30 procs of Killing Machine by the same standard as someone getting 15?
DPS is about performing when it matters. No one cares how fast Usain Bolt runs on training, what we care about is how fast he runs on the track when it really matters. As long as he keeps himself within the pre-set rules set by IAAF (Blizzard in our case) he can do whatever he want to do and we only need to keep track of the time.
What about Heroism, Hysteria, DRW? All those effects strongly gain by having a shorter fight. Even small stuff like trinket cds is biased towards a fight that lasts slightly less than 3min (since you can use a 2min cd trinket twice). If you want it to make it any more complicated you should involve RNG. How do we judge someone getting 30 procs of Killing Machine by the same standard as someone getting 15?
DPS is about performing when it matters. No one cares how fast Usain Bolt runs on training, what we care about is how fast he runs on the track when it really matters. As long as he keeps himself within the pre-set rules set by IAAF (Blizzard in our case) he can do whatever he want to do and we only need to keep track of the time.
My point is that including this stuff into the metric makes it worthless as a metric. If you want to compare who has the highest dps/shortest kill on Patchwerk go ahead, but it will help very little in judging which spec is the best.
My point is that including this stuff into the metric makes it worthless as a metric. If you want to compare who has the highest dps/shortest kill on Patchwerk go ahead, but it will help very little in judging which spec is the best.
It helps just as much as any other metric as long as you analyze it with any amount of intelligence at all. If you just look to see which person has the biggest number and then declare that spec the best no matter what, clearly you don't really belong here. Clearly, every individual report here has to be evaluated with the kill time and how lucky they were with the RNG in mind. If you want to completely regard various cooldowns and add them in a formulaic method, you might as well just use a spreadsheet.
It helps just as much as any other metric as long as you analyze it with any amount of intelligence at all. If you just look to see which person has the biggest number and then declare that spec the best no matter what, clearly you don't really belong here. Clearly, every individual report here has to be evaluated with the kill time and how lucky they were with the RNG in mind. If you want to completely regard various cooldowns and add them in a formulaic method, you might as well just use a spreadsheet.
[Non Cooldown DPS + (Cooldown dmg / cooldown length) ] seems like the best model to me.
As rightly mentioned several times in this thread, our DPS as 51/x/y spec, depends on the number of times we have DRW fully up.
Thus, Patchwerk is the worst boss for an accurate comparison, since the fight lasts more or less 3min30s.
Okay so im new around here so lets see if i do this right
Just to supply some data,
Current spec: 51/13/7
Rotation: Ps - IT - Oblit - Hs - Hs - Dc [ Oblit - Oblit - Hs - Hs - Dc ] Secondary section of rotation, generally weaving in
deathcoils on sudden doom procs (in blood presence)
Glyphs - Glyph of bloodstrike, Glyph of Oblit and Glyph Ghoul for majors
Misuse Cds, hit them without a bloodlust (Big dps loss) Aotd not included in wws but was used WWS Loading...
Dps based from wws 4,488.
P.s. i have [Sigil of Awareness]
Wow Web Stats 5344 DPS (Patchwork)
Angry Dead +FC/Hailstorm + Berserking
Rotation: PS-IT-BS-BS-HB RP Dump PS-IT-IT-IT-HB RP Dump
Didn't have Procc-Luck on Berserking and FC at the same time thus Gargoyle used with [Fury of the Five Flights] up and Berserk active.
Used: [Sigil of the Frozen Conscience]
Didn't use AotD at all, lost a lot of DPS this way. And Ghoul was not added correctly, don't have a screenshot though. Will add next week a more accurate DPS output.
01/24/09, 4:03 AM
) . So you roughly lose 4% of damage per 0,1 second of delay on a cast. As we can see, the more time you lose on your styles the superipr UP get`s and it get`s better very fast, as you still got your 1,75 FSs, 0,3 HB, free HoW refresh and maybe other stuff like getting a mate to be a cool ghoul or the like.
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