Prepull AotD, using Death's Bite. Screwed up my gargoyle summon, which would have helped of course. But was steady over 6k for majority of the fight. Be getting Darkmoon Card next week, so hope to post better numbers next week
Last edited by Bloodmourne : 01/29/09 at 7:07 PM.
Reason: wowmeter link fixed, no longer broken link
OK guys. Gonna get straight to the point here. I'm not exactly an elite player nor do I take the game to a level that some of you may. I don't use that many add ons, in fact, I barely use any because my computer sucks and I'd DC every second in Naxx 25 if I did.
Now I do some decent damage. 3k on 10 man sarth, etc. When I feel like playing I do some decent things. Nothing like you guys are doing, but I'm well on par with my guild, usually always in the top 5.
I have a 27/44/0 spec. It's not too different from 21/50/0 etc, I'm not thinking that my spec is of any problem regarding my DPS. But the thing is (and it may be that my guild has lots of crap DPS and we are just not that good - so fights take longer, thus resulting in less dps), I just feel like I could be doing so much more damage. I look at some posts here and see people doing 5k+ easy on Patch, etc, and they have better gear than me but not by that much.
Now -- I don't use a set rotation really (and this is probably the problem). I kind of do. But in general, I just kind of use whatevers up at the time.
I'm always in Blood Presence, and have RotFC on 2h'er.
I never use AoTD and I don't bother using the Ghoul since im not unholy.
A lot of the time I let my diseases run out and don't refresh them right away, or wait even sometimes 5-10 seconds (don't really count, just do it once OB/FS etc are on CD, or their runes rather).
I'd say generally I do IT -> PS -> OB -> BT -> OB -> BS -> BS -> DUMP, then rinse and repeat (or without the BT in the next rotation - BS if Death Runes become Blood Runes again, and use whatevers up).
Is it my rotation? Is it the fact that I don't keep my diseases up at all times? Is it gems? Spec? Gear? All of the above?
Any tips would be appreciated guys. Really wanna hit an elite level of damage.
OK guys. Gonna get straight to the point here. I'm not exactly an elite player nor do I take the game to a level that some of you may. I don't use that many add ons, in fact, I barely use any because my computer sucks and I'd DC every second in Naxx 25 if I did.
Now I do some decent damage. 3k on 10 man sarth, etc. When I feel like playing I do some decent things. Nothing like you guys are doing, but I'm well on par with my guild, usually always in the top 5.
I have a 27/44/0 spec. It's not too different from 21/50/0 etc, I'm not thinking that my spec is of any problem regarding my DPS. But the thing is (and it may be that my guild has lots of crap DPS and we are just not that good - so fights take longer, thus resulting in less dps), I just feel like I could be doing so much more damage. I look at some posts here and see people doing 5k+ easy on Patch, etc, and they have better gear than me but not by that much.
Now -- I don't use a set rotation really (and this is probably the problem). I kind of do. But in general, I just kind of use whatevers up at the time.
I'm always in Blood Presence, and have RotFC on 2h'er.
I never use AoTD and I don't bother using the Ghoul since im not unholy.
A lot of the time I let my diseases run out and don't refresh them right away, or wait even sometimes 5-10 seconds (don't really count, just do it once OB/FS etc are on CD, or their runes rather).
I'd say generally I do IT -> PS -> OB -> BT -> OB -> BS -> BS -> DUMP, then rinse and repeat (or without the BT in the next rotation - BS if Death Runes become Blood Runes again, and use whatevers up).
Is it my rotation? Is it the fact that I don't keep my diseases up at all times? Is it gems? Spec? Gear? All of the above?
Any tips would be appreciated guys. Really wanna hit an elite level of damage.
If you are posting on EJ it is likely because you want to improve, though from your post it seems like you aren't really putting effort into it. Look up which spec you want (it seems like you are leaning towards 2H Frost so check out that thread) and stick to a rotation or priority system at first. Learn to be flexible with it when movement interrupts your rotation. Also, read which presence you should be using, I can't remember exactly but I think 21/50/0 functions best in UP.
Also, why would you not pop Ghoul? Even if its not permanent it is still a significant addition to your damage. The same goes for AotD. It just seems ludicrous not to use all the abilities you have at your disposal. As for diseases, their uptime is usually very important to priority systems (less so for rotations, but rotations take into account disease length) and you should use some sort of addon to track it (NeedToKnow, ClassTimers, Ellipsis, DoTimers, etc... all of these are simple and don't require much memory to run and easily tell you when your diseases are low or gone).
In general, if you want to hit an "elite level of damage" you need to put forth some effort. Reading the forum thread for a given spec and using the appropriate rotation or priority system will go a long way. Also not doing obvious increases to your DPS (Ghoul/AotD) just points to a general laziness which will hurt your ability to do well. You can find the gem/gear selections as appropriate from many threads on these forums, just do a little bit of searching and your post would have been unnecessary in the first place. Such as if you see everyone is using AotD on Patchwerk, wouldn't you wonder why you are not using it?
Basically regem to +str gems (reds and ignore socket bonuses, you need two blue for your meta gem), replace your bracers with something more in line for your class, and work on your rotation. Try using the face smasher mod to help learn your rotation, it really helps with prompting. Oh and your spec is rather hurting too. Little things like using the ghoul do help your dps, getting the small details down is important.
Can we (you) please stop posting test dummy results in a Top RAID DPS thread?
It is annoying enough to have to weed through them to find useful information (actual raid DPS, rotations and stats) in the dual wield thread.
RAID DPS = the damage you did or do while raiding, so including buffs and whatnot.
Not the numbers you solo on the yellow ebon hold "boss".
Spec: 17/0/54
Gear: [Sigil of Awareness] and [Claymore of Ancient Power]. Same gear as current Armory minus [The Jawbone]
Notes: AotD to start in UH presence with a [Potion of Speed] taken pre pull before switching back to blood. Gargoyle used during Crusader/Mirror procs with speed pot. 40 str food, Kiblers Bits, and Flasked.
This doesn't include AotD but does include the Ghoul. Army did 80,782 damage to Patch so if you add it to total damage and go by my given dps time it shows as 6020. Army was channeled as he was pulled so I don't know why it calculates dps time as being so off from total fight time (3'09 dps time to 3'24 fight time) but if you put it at total fight time its 5578 which is roughly equal to what WWS posted. This was my first Naxx run as UH since hitting 80 and I'm fairly pleased with the results. It should also be noted that this was 20 manned so fight time was longer (I could have probably got two Gargoyles in if I hadn't waited to pop it at the start) so I'd expect dps to go up by quite a bit in our average Patch kill.
I found that a few changes up'd my dps from the previous week. I got the new IT sigil from venture bay and I changed to Cinder glacier on OH instead of razorrice
also don't mind the belt got it last night and didnt get a chance to throw on a buckle and a gem
The spec was 33/38, normal rotation + spec. Upon pulling patchwerk, I did PS - IT - BS - AOTD, and by the time AOTD was finished casting runes were up and followed a normal rotation.
Gargoyle was summoned when mirror's truth procc'd along side with orc racial. 40 str food buff and 120 ap flask was used.
Given the number of Blood questions that've popped up lately, I decided to re-read the Blood thread and came upon this very interesting post from a while back, and it gave me an idea.
Since we're currently in a holding pattern waiting for more data to come in, it might be useful to employ some of the parses we have to rate the various specs by what I'll call "Realized DPS". This might wind up being a topic for its own thread, but I want to get some feedback here first.
As the spreadsheets progress (and thanks to the spreadsheet guys for the work), we're getting reasonably good tools to evaluate the theoretical DPS output of a given spec and gear set. In this thread, we have a pretty good (and improving) list of real DPS numbers. What I'd like to see happen is for us to come up with a meaningful way to look at how close a given spec tends to get to its theoretical numbers. Yes, player skill drives a certain amount of the real DPS shortfall vs. theoretical DPS, but as our data set grows that variation should get sorted out assuming players of roughly evenly distributed skill are playing each spec. The rest of the shortfall is made up of intangibles that we assign to each spec, but have a hard time putting a meaningful value on. Things like:
Blood uses a lot of one rune strikes, and so is less forgiving to mistakes.
IT-spam builds suffer less from time off of the boss because of the ranged nature of IT and BB.
Unholy doesn't require proc-watching to nearly the degree of Frost (KM) or Blood (SD).
The goal of the project would be both to find out which specs more "easily" approach theoretical DPS to recommend to weaker players, but also to possibly employ these "easier" builds when we hit a point in progression where a coordination fight is the chokepoint. Being able to maintain acceptable DPS levels while freeing player attention to focus on complex fight mechanics may not be very valuable now while folks are farming, but it could be a useful option in the future.
Any ideas on how to aggregate the data we have in a meaningful way? Is this even a project people would be interested in?
Last edited by Megaera : 01/28/09 at 2:49 PM.
Reason: fixed link
Theoretical DPS is meaningless as long as our theorycrafting tools are chained to the fixed rotation. Many (if not all) specs are best played using a priority system that quickly starts to look very different from its closest fixed-rotation counterpart. Not to mention that proper use of things like Blood Tap and ERW (and proper Gargoyle timing, though that one is feasibly modelable) don't show up well on a spreadsheet if at all. It's going to take something beyond the scope of anything currently out there before we can start in with the assumption that our actual DPS is attempting to approach some theoretical apogee predicted by our spreadsheets.
Spreadsheets succeed at modeling the damage per rotation by calculating each abilities' damage, RP generation, and the damage of RP dumps, etc. These tools aren't going to model disruptions in whatever theoretically optimal rotation, but it still tells us things like "rotation/spec A will pruduce bigger numbers than rotation/spec B with raid buffs, assuming we don't make mistakes with either". Perhaps rotation/spec A is more fragile, and will produce smaller numbers than rotation/spec B after you factor in the real world -- this is the reason we're discussing DK rotation/specs in a forum rather than all silently concentrating our efforts on building a more accurate spreadsheet/simulator. The theoretical tools tell us roughly which ~dozen of the hundreds of possible rotation/specs to discuss.
Spreadsheets succeed at modeling the damage per rotation by calculating each abilities' damage, RP generation, and the damage of RP dumps, etc. These tools aren't going to model disruptions in whatever theoretically optimal rotation, but it still tells us things like "rotation/spec A will pruduce bigger numbers than rotation/spec B with raid buffs, assuming we don't make mistakes with either". Perhaps rotation/spec A is more fragile, and will produce smaller numbers than rotation/spec B after you factor in the real world -- this is the reason we're discussing DK rotation/specs in a forum rather than all silently concentrating our efforts on building a more accurate spreadsheet/simulator. The theoretical tools tell us roughly which ~dozen of the hundreds of possible rotation/specs to discuss.
It's this "fragility" that I'm trying to get at. My approach might be wrongheaded (or, as Kurokaze suggests, premature given the tools we have), but I think given our focus on getting away from "x feels better than y" and toward meaningful comparisions, it might be useful to find a way of measuring how taxing it is on the player to maintain a given spec/rotation, and how severe the impact of the real world is.
Some players can be superheroes no matter how complex their DPS mechanics are, but even top guilds aren't composed 100% of players of that skill level, and for those of us whose tunnel-vision worsens with more demanding mechanics it'd be useful to explore what "speccing for survival" means in more exhaustive terms than damage reduction and increased stamina.
I was running the OB, IT, PS, HSx6 Rotation. Fight length was obviously very short, and thus the numbers are higher due to overall CD uptime. I finally managed to pick up the Sigil of Awareness last night, and am now in the process of trying to decide if, when I get to spec for DPS (I tank most of the time), I would be better off running a 51/13/7 spec and the Obitx3 rotation. I had good success with that spec/rotation/sigil combo back in beta, but that was the last time before last night that I was DPSing as blood in a 25 man scenario. Looking forward to seeing more numbers from people running Annihilation specs.
The goal of the project would be both to find out which specs more "easily" approach theoretical DPS to recommend to weaker players, but also to possibly employ these "easier" builds when we hit a point in progression where a coordination fight is the chokepoint.
It's not even just about weaker players, or about choosing an easier spec to concentrate on boss mechanics. No matter how good you are, some bosses are still going to CC you, teleport away from you, summon adds you need to switch to quickly, and otherwhise make optimal performance impossible. Better 3.01 patchwerk numbers aside, I suspect part of the reason people favor 2h unholy over blood and frost is because unholy compensates better for lost DPS time.
Obviously there's no perfect way to model this problem. I'd be interested to see spreadsheets with an "80% presence" option - how well does X spec perform running Y priority system if has to DPS for 8 seconds and then stop completely for 2, or it's allowed to DPS for 8 seconds and then autoattack stops and it can only use ranged abilities. I could also see creating a random map of forced DPS stops or ranged-only periods, with the ability to save that random map and test it for several specs. That's probably a fair amount of work, but I think it's be an interesting project for some future bored spreadsheet-writer.
It should be a requirement that a person survive an entire fight to post numbers for it--otherwise, we'll see people popping garg/cooldowns and dying right after pulling ahead unfairly.
I was alive for ~2 minutes, the shortest Patchwerk fights are just over that, so I wouldn't say there's anything "unfair" in there, I even missed half of the Heroism and the whole <35% phase.
Probably I won't post any high DPS reports anymore though as my guild is planning to split our raid group to two <20 people raid groups resulting in a much higher fight time.
I was running the OB, IT, PS, HSx6 Rotation. Fight length was obviously very short, and thus the numbers are higher due to overall CD uptime. I finally managed to pick up the Sigil of Awareness last night, and am now in the process of trying to decide if, when I get to spec for DPS (I tank most of the time), I would be better off running a 51/13/7 spec and the Obitx3 rotation. I had good success with that spec/rotation/sigil combo back in beta, but that was the last time before last night that I was DPSing as blood in a 25 man scenario. Looking forward to seeing more numbers from people running Annihilation specs.
That is a 1min50sec fight, your numbers are unfortunately not very useful.
5676DPS
17/0/54, [The Jawbone], [Sigil of Awareness], Rune of the Fallen Crusader
Glyphs: Blood Strike, Scourge Strike, Ghoul
Other info: Flask of Endless Rage, Worg Tartare (not hitcapped without it), GG used early in fight along with Orc racial, no AotD. Second Blood Fury was used in Bloodlust, no ERW, no Blood Tap.
EDIT: Another thing some number crunchers might find interesting is Loatheb where I haven't used any diseases, and was using Obliterate instead of SS because we were attempting Spore Loser (which we failed because a mage used his 'all out' macro with mirror images embedded at 2% or so).
Something different for change, last nights: Razuvious.
I am not sure how helpful this can be in the meaning of this topic. Silvermoon (EU) is hardly an enjoyable environment, even less for benching. However here is the stuff you're looking for
Rotation: IT-BS-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS weaving more FS in on any fitting occasion Presence: Blood Other:
~ UA, Rime used when up;
~ KM immediately used for FS
~ AotD not used
~ Flask of Endless Rage
~ No food
the chatwindow shows a recount snapshot for Razuvious only;
the recount window includes the remaining adds after Razuvious was down
I played around with rotations and lag the rest of the raid, so don't have any other helpful data. This one came in very handy as Razuvious didn't move at all.
__ don't argue with an idiot. he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience __
33/38 DW
Deekayjay
5865 DPS Patchwerk 2:36 kill WoW Meter Online
Dual [Hailstorm] FC MH + CG OH
AotD on the pull, PS-IT-HB-BS-BS-RP, PS-IT-HB-IT-IT-RP with Freezing Fog canceled.
Zulrath - 17/0/54
5242 DPS
Death's Bite and blue SS sigil
Glyphs: SS / IT / Ghoul (I realize BS is probably better than IT now)
Hannibul - 51/0/20
5239 DPS
Cryptfiend's Bite and blue HS sigil
Glyphs: BS / OB / Ghoul
I did much better last week as DW 32/39. However we don't have the WWS for that run plus I died embarassingly to Patchwerk at the start. This could be due to the fact that my unholy set hasn't exactly improved (only other trinket I have until darkmoon faire is meteorite whetstone) and I've yet to even see the Sigil of Awareness drop for two months. But since our raid needed UA and EP I figured I'd test it out.
The one thing I like about 17/0/54 is that it's easy to hit the expertise cap. I had no issues with my rotation whatsoever, so my dps was very consistant. Last Laugh dropped again tonight so I'm next on the list for tanking, but I'll definitely be using it for the dps as well.
01/28/09, 4:03 AM
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