I agree that there are variables we have forced into play that skew this from being a completely valid comparison.
That being said, it seems as though one could make the argument that while there are several 2h specs that dance around the same numbers, for the most part we can focus on variations of the classic 1h frost/uh build for max single target DPS?
I am not impressed given the time it took you to kill him plus your rogues spaming tricks of the trade on you. Not really something to brag about.
When I first saw the Tricks of the Trade buffs referenced, I thought that would account for most of the huge numbers in ztn's post. But really, do the maths.
3 applications at 6 seconds each over the course of the fight... 18 seconds out of 113 seconds, that's just under 16%.
a 15% damage bonus for 16% of the fight is only ~2.4% damage increase.
Even giving a wildly generous 5% damage bonus, his dps without Tricks of the Trade would still be 7268dps for that fight.
That's still impressive and hence the presence of the rogue buff is certainly not grounds to dismiss the post outright when we're investigating what the top raid dps spec/rotation is.
I'm keen to see if it can be replicated by someone with similar gear/spec.
I don't really post here very often, but I don't see how this thread is giving any accurate measure of raid dps. You guys are showing wws'/wmos/recounts of sub 2 minute fights where all cooldowns/buff potions are up. Of course you are going to get retardedly high numbers under such circumstances.
WotLK needs a REAL benchmark raid boss, but Patch who dies in less than 2 mins is not it.
I don't really post here very often, but I don't see how this thread is giving any accurate measure of raid dps. You guys are showing wws'/wmos/recounts of sub 2 minute fights where all cooldowns/buff potions are up. Of course you are going to get retardedly high numbers under such circumstances.
WotLK needs a REAL benchmark raid boss, but Patch who dies in less than 2 mins is not it.
When you stop and think about it, which fights really require max dps?
Sarth 3 drake, 6 minute malygos.
Burning tenebron and shadron down can be equated to a "max cooldown short fight" situation.
In the absence of a 6 minute benchmark fight, using patchwerk to measure how well you will perform on the actual hard parts of the "hard" encounters seems valid to me.
I don't really post here very often, but I don't see how this thread is giving any accurate measure of raid dps. You guys are showing wws'/wmos/recounts of sub 2 minute fights where all cooldowns/buff potions are up. Of course you are going to get retardedly high numbers under such circumstances.
WotLK needs a REAL benchmark raid boss, but Patch who dies in less than 2 mins is not it.
The idea is not to get an accurate measure of raid dps, but rather to discover which Death Knight spec/gear choice has the most potential. In that case, looking at how all the different spec do under similar conditions (25man Patchwerk) is indeed a valid method on inquiry.
The idea is not to get an accurate measure of raid dps, but rather to discover which Death Knight spec/gear choice has the most potential. In that case, looking at how all the different spec do under similar conditions (25man Patchwerk) is indeed a valid method on inquiry.
Well I guess for the current raid content it would be a bit accurate since everything currently is really a cooldown burnfest. However, the disparity in dps between a DK fully buffed with cooldowns as opposed to not differs a bit between specs. Imo, if you are going to run tests like this you should also be testing those same encounters without the cooldowns as well to get a better idea of the true sustained dps between the specs of the class. While it doesn't matter so much now, it'll prove valuable later down the road as fights grow longer.
I'm keen to see if it can be replicated by someone with similar gear/spec.
Id say my gear is comparable to his, except not having dual last laugh like he does. I have no idea how I am currently more than 1k dps behind his, since this last PW I hit my personal best of 6391 dps (WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!). This was with all stops, AOTD launched on unholy presence and speed pot, switching to UP just before gargoyle, and speed pot macro on its summon, ghoul food buffed, etc...
Granted this kill took 43 seconds more than his, and my rogues dont love me like his do, but would that really account for such a difference? Well thinking about it, it could indeed be huge, especially if applied during bloodlust.
Another difference is his howling blast has 33% crit more than mine, probably better play on his behalf, or luck on procs. I was running FC/CG against his dual FC, which granted him 18% more uptime on the buff... How big would this be?
But I confess my jaw dropped when I saw his numbers, pro job there
Id say my gear is comparable to his, except not having dual last laugh like he does. I have no idea how I am currently more than 1k dps behind his, since this last PW I hit my personal best of 6391 dps (WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!). This was with all stops, AOTD launched on unholy presence and speed pot, switching to UP just before gargoyle, and speed pot macro on its summon, ghoul food buffed, etc...
Granted this kill took 43 seconds more than his, and my rogues dont love me like his do, but would that really account for such a difference? Well thinking about it, it could indeed be huge, especially if applied during bloodlust.
Another difference is his howling blast has 33% crit more than mine, probably better play on his behalf, or luck on procs. I was running FC/CG against his dual FC, which granted him 18% more uptime on the buff... How big would this be?
But I confess my jaw dropped when I saw his numbers, pro job there
RNG was in his favor. If you examine his gear, you will notice he has traded 8-9% crit for about 200-250 str. In fact, he has traded almost every stat except hit for strength. Yet his crit rates on that fight were as high or higher than someone with a more average setup of gear (more crit, less ap), for IT and HB. All this, with a massive amount of strength, and a 64% FC uptime.
I don't expect it will be easily repeatable. It seems more like a freak of nature to me.
Last edited by Zurm : 02/03/09 at 11:41 AM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Granted this kill took 43 seconds more than his, and my rogues dont love me like his do, but would that really account for such a difference? Well thinking about it, it could indeed be huge, especially if applied during bloodlust.
Another difference is his howling blast has 33% crit more than mine, probably better play on his behalf, or luck on procs. I was running FC/CG against his dual FC, which granted him 18% more uptime on the buff... How big would this be?
More likely than not the discrepancy is due to the large difference in time to death. Due to things like AotD and the Garg, Death Knight DPS does MUCH better in situations where the fight is over as quickly as possible; in fact, in a world catered exclusively to Death Knights, the fight would only last as long as an AotD ghoul.
The idea is not to get an accurate measure of raid dps, but rather to discover which Death Knight spec/gear choice has the most potential. In that case, looking at how all the different spec do under similar conditions (25man Patchwerk) is indeed a valid method on inquiry.
The problem with this statement, is that your are not finding the most potential. The conditions set out are too skewed to base a reasonable judgement on. 30%+ uptime of Heroism and AotD, 25% uptime of
Speed - 500 haste potion, fight lasting shorter than the full cooldown of gargoyle. (Especially with a spec that relies on white damage and BCB procs as highly as this does) The fact is, if you stopped raiding, didn't change any of your spec, and came back in 3 weeks, your dps would go up noticeably. Not because you are any different, but in a bursty CD oriented spec like this, you are just lowering your dps the longer you are in combat. The higher the rest of your raids dps is, the higher yours will -seem-.
Granted their is no such benchmark yet, but the work that should be happening here, is finding out the sustainable portion of raid dps it gives, and figuring out the the peak portions of this spec relative to fight length.
A major problem with this spec and comparing it, is there may have been others that posted here with better specs or more effective rotations, but because their fight was 30 seconds+ longer, their numbers would much much
lower.
For a thread that is becoming the point that guild masters are looking at to see what their dks should be performing at or rather what they should be capable of at present time is- misinformation. Take the DK that hit 7k dps,
put in a raid that kills Patchwerk in ~ 3 min doing the exact same he is doing now, and people wouldn't be changing their gear choices or spec to try to replicate it.
That's why we have theorycrafting tools, Klasp. We don't have any real-world situation where we can find the ideal DPS spec over a 5 or 10 minute fight which is pure dps. Perhaps Ulduar will bring us one. Your best bet is to use Rawr or the spreadsheets and model the fight YOU want.
My guess is that come Ulduar we will experience longer, more complicated fights, with less burn time on a single target and more multi-tasking. In a fight like that, any spec that relies heavily on gargoyle or DRW will do poorly, and a spec that is more player oriented than pet orient (such as 2H frost) will probably do best.
The other thing is that we don't know much about ulduar or T8. Current T7 bonuses are fairly game-breaking in terms of how heavily they benefit 2H builds. All we really CAN theorycraft right now with any certainty is performance on fights like patchwerk, and that's what we are doing.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I am not impressed given the time it took you to kill him plus your rogues spaming tricks of the trade on you. Not really something to brag about.
Pot calling kettle black... This thread is sort of made to brag about things. Are you implying we should only look at reports from inferior guilds and players?
But we are still using Patchwerk as a benchmark knowing that he is not a valid one. If there is no real world scenario in game yet, we should not settle on one known flawed specific encounter to measure off of. If you are to measure at all, than measure on ALL the content available.
But in the current form, labeling this thread as finding Top Raid DPS is no better than a youtube pvp crit video where all it shows is people critting people with berserker and all cooldowns blown under ideal situations.
I find this thread useful for my own analysis. Given the situation that people are hitting their dps numbers I can draw my own conclusions about which spec is best. If you don't like how things are being done then don't read this thread. I don't know how many times its been brought up that patchwerk is a bad benchmark for whatever reason, but it's starting to get real old now.
My guess is that come Ulduar we will experience longer, more complicated fights, with less burn time on a single target and more multi-tasking. In a fight like that, any spec that relies heavily on gargoyle or DRW will do poorly, and a spec that is more player oriented than pet orient (such as 2H frost) will probably do best.
The other thing is that we don't know much about ulduar or T8. Current T7 bonuses are fairly game-breaking in terms of how heavily they benefit 2H builds. All we really CAN theorycraft right now with any certainty is performance on fights like patchwerk, and that's what we are doing.
Ulduar will have longer fights, that's for sure. There will also be much less aoe. I don't think Gargoyle & Co. will be less good, since sheets already model infinite fights. Cooldowns for burst damage are always good.
I think T8 will have more general bonuses. T7 clearly wasn't very thought out with only 2h in mind.
In my opinion, there is no fight with a real benchmark as of now. You can't rely on Heroic Dummy, you can't rely on Patchwerk, nor you can rely on any fight with aoe/buff.
A real benchmark would be a less than 20man Patchwerk (thus making the fight last 5 minutes).
Also, it would need to all fights have the exact same setup (all buffs/debuffs possible, etc) and last the exact same time. (yes, they need to last the exact same time due to the spikiness of DK dps at the beginning)
In my opinion, there is no fight with a real benchmark as of now. You can't rely on Heroic Dummy, you can't rely on Patchwerk, nor you can rely on any fight with aoe/buff.
A real benchmark would be a less than 20man Patchwerk (thus making the fight last 5 minutes).
Also, it would need to all fights have the exact same setup (all buffs/debuffs possible, etc) and last the exact same time. (yes, they need to last the exact same time due to the spikiness of DK dps at the beginning)
Not directed specifically at X, but at the whole discussion along these lines:
I'm not sure why we've arbitrarily chosen five minutes as a 'real' benchmark, especially on a class with 3 minute cooldowns on buffs. A five minute fight would still overvalue cooldowns, and only be marginally better in that it dampens AotD's contribution, but if that's the goal we can just look at current numbers less-AotD. If you want meaningful numbers you could either take a 3min+ fight and look at the first three minutes (but then you're undervaluing Frost-ecute), or take a 6 minute fight that would hopefully wind up with both trinkets and cooldowns refreshing shortly after the fight ends.
I'm also a little confused about people's use of the word 'real'. I'm not sure what we're talking about when the fights in the game aren't real, but hypothetical fights are. There's something seriously wrongheaded there.
In my opinion, there is no fight with a real benchmark as of now. You can't rely on Heroic Dummy, you can't rely on Patchwerk, nor you can rely on any fight with aoe/buff.
A real benchmark would be a less than 20man Patchwerk (thus making the fight last 5 minutes).
Also, it would need to all fights have the exact same setup (all buffs/debuffs possible, etc) and last the exact same time. (yes, they need to last the exact same time due to the spikiness of DK dps at the beginning)
Patchwerk is a good benchmark, there will never be a better one. You just can't simply take the dps number, you have to look closer at the wws log and factor in stuff like time and the relative class positions.
Patchwerk is a good benchmark, there will never be a better one. You just can't simply take the dps number, you have to look closer at the wws log and factor in stuff like time and the relative class positions.
I don't think patchwerk is bad.
The problem is that the data without real processing is rather skewed.
And most people who come here only see the bolded DPS number, which says nothing about fight length, raid setup. The information is available but people often don't use it.
If you normalize the dps numbers though, by correcting RNG and accounting for cooldowns. I wonder what kind of numbers we get to see then.
One suggestion might be to make a calculation to factor in gear as well. There might be guys doing 5,000 DPS, but with a lot better gear, than guys doing 3,000 DPS. The latter spec might be the one giving most DPS, its just not showing cause of gear differences.
One way to do this could be dividing the DPS by AP, Crit and Hit. Sadly, I'm not the theorycrafting genius, to make a useful of these, and the number will never be precise. But over a 3 minute period, with DPS divided by AP and Crit/Hit, might be somewhat of a more comparable number than just basic DPS.
RNG was in his favor. If you examine his gear, you will notice he has traded 8-9% crit for about 200-250 str. In fact, he has traded almost every stat except hit for strength. Yet his crit rates on that fight were as high or higher than someone with a more average setup of gear (more crit, less ap), for IT and HB. All this, with a massive amount of strength, and a 64% FC uptime.
I don't expect it will be easily repeatable. It seems more like a freak of nature to me.
I think I still hold the freak of nature title with a 100% crit rate on Howling blast. It was Faerlina and on last patch but I'm only using it as an example to show that getting RNG lucky is not that rare. Oh and btw, expect new record parses this week. We're doing a full on dps oriented raid to set some records this week.
I think I still hold the freak of nature title with a 100% crit rate on Howling blast. It was Faerlina and on last patch but I'm using it as an example that it is not that rare or impossible. Oh and btw, expect new record parses this week. We're doing a full on dps oriented raid to set some records this week.
20 man raid but damage could have been higher with appropriate buffs. Lacked a buffed Windfury (elemental dropped 16% totem) and bloodlust was used late in the fight (approx 40%?) so it was not up during the use of DRW. Also, raid lacked a fury warrior or feral druid for 5% crit buff.
Used Army of the Dead at pull and cast DRW when I had trinket + abom's might + unholy strength. Did NOT use Empowered Rune Weapon during DRW as I found myself bound by GCDs to get rid of the runes I had. If I recall, I wound up spamming HS throughout due to having BBDDDD up at some point and did not want to use OB because it would use the UU death runes.
What's the official word on whether snares of any flavor (FFB, Mind Flay, etc) that don't actually do anything to raid bosses count for the Blood Strike glyph? Anyone know for sure?
02/02/09, 7:38 PM
Similar Threads
