for the moment I'll stick to threat over RT but that might change when we start doing hardmodes
Assuming you use Rune Tap to successfully heal yourself, it is decent threat. Heals do have a 0.5 threat penalty, but if you get a full heal off (around 10k) it is more threat than Heart Strike.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Assuming you use Rune Tap to successfully heal yourself, it is decent threat. Heals do have a 0.5 threat penalty, but if you get a full heal off (around 10k) it is more threat than Heart Strike.
That's true people discount healing threat easily, although a crit HS should still out-threat it (also assuming only one mob since AFAIK healing threat is still split over multiple targets). That aside, I'm usually having trouble enough already making my DSs not overheal that I opted to leave out RT, which of course doesn't mean it's not a good talent.
Improved RT combined with VB is a very powerful heal, but I found I never used it often enough to warrant the 4 points. Instead, if I felt I really needed a big heal I would combine VB with Death Pact.
In respect to Unholy tanking however, has anyone done any recent testing in relation to Necrosis Vs BCB TPS after the changes to rune strike? I never was one for number crunching.
Yea I picked up a spec with BCB from Gravity (Unholy tank in 3.3 | pwnwear) and his numbers show BCB being slighty ahead of Necrosis in terms of threat, just wasn't sure if that was taking into account the RS 'nerf'.
If it is, then the TPS difference is pretty minor thus would prob opt out of BCB due to the parry's, although for a 2H tank I'd imagine even with BCB parry hasting would be a rather small consideration.
Also, tanked the first wing of ICC10 last night as unholy to compare it against my usual blood spec and must say was quite impressed. While on trash, my Bone Shield would often fall off after 6-8 seconds, on boss encounters it would often last up to 15+ with 40% total avoidance.
AoE threat was vastly superior (however was running DnD glyph), and single target was also a non issue even when I wasn't getting tricks/MD.
While 1 night and 4 bosses is hardly a conclusive test, it has given me the confidence to stick with it a little longer.
Assuming you use Rune Tap to successfully heal yourself, it is decent threat. Heals do have a 0.5 threat penalty, but if you get a full heal off (around 10k) it is more threat than Heart Strike.
It's multiplied by Frost Presence, and split amongst all nearby mobs. Assuming 10k heals and 1k Blood Boils, it's only worth pressing if it's against less than 5 targets.
I believe BCB isn't a stamdard choice for tanking as it counts as a separate event and increases chances for parry-haste. Necrosis doesn't, however.
From the research going on, it looks like parry haste is disabled in all the ICC normal modes except Deathwhisper and possibly Saurfang. If this trend continues in the hard modes, I would only really be concerned with the threat portion and not it's affects on incoming damage.
Assuming you use Rune Tap to successfully heal yourself, it is decent threat. Heals do have a 0.5 threat penalty, but if you get a full heal off (around 10k) it is more threat than Heart Strike.
Even more so if you're glyphed for Rune Tap. On a 50k health DK, popping Vampiric Blood, then Rune Tap will give a 15k heal. You'll get even more so if you stack your tanks and high HP dps in the same group, healing each of them for 10% depending on their HP will give you a nice chunk of threat.
Last edited by Janiy : 02/09/10 at 6:00 AM.
Reason: grammer
Draxar, as Imperarx said, there does not appear to be much parry-haste in ICC anyhow, so (if gets corroborated) BCB is no longer a parry-haste risk. My unholy page you linked to was written prior to the Necrosis-RS nerf, too, so in fact BCB is now relatively strong than when I wrote that article.
I'd be interested to see WoL of you tanking in Unholy for the bone shield uptime you saw, per boss. Regardless, I don't think Unholy is something you'd use in a hard-mode because of bone shield weakness in comparison to Frost or Blood, given there are no fights that have a high enough proportion of magic damage to make 6% supression a winner, and given BS unreliable/lower uptime.
As another benefit of ICC having most bosses parry-haste off, Frost dual-wield doesn't need to worry about expertise anymore in terms of parry-haste.
Yea I'll get one going for my next run. As I wasn't running any the other night, my 15 seconds was an educated guess based off the CD timer, so a WOL will provide some more accurate data and no doubt show I'm delusional... but provided it's still in the 10-15 second range I still rate it higher than VB, especially on encounters like festergut's 3rd inhale where it's better to reduce the size of the hit not increase the size of the incoming heal... imo
However, outside Bone Shield, Unholy is just as squishy as blood but without the self healing and no WOTN so I doubt I'd stick with it through hardmodes. I'm running the spec because it fills a nice buff niche since both our DPS DK's are blood and I seldom MT anymore in 25 man since swapping from my Paladin.
On the BCB topic:
Since the Rune Strike change affects SoB and Necrosis, it is also safe to assume that it affects Killing Machine proccs and BCB proccs.
So the value of BCB is also lowered, although I haven't done the math of how much. But it certainly isn't worth the points it takes to go down that far into the UH tree as blood.
Yea I'll get one going for my next run. As I wasn't running any the other night, my 15 seconds was an educated guess based off the CD timer, so a WOL will provide some more accurate data and no doubt show I'm delusional... but provided it's still in the 10-15 second range I still rate it higher than VB, especially on encounters like festergut's 3rd inhale where it's better to reduce the size of the hit not increase the size of the incoming heal... imo
You shouldn't compare the damage reduction of BS with the bonus healing of VB, but rather with the bonus health. If you assume you have 58k health, VB pushes that to 66.7k. BS allows you to survive hits up to 72.5k (before BS), so it's slightly better than VB from that point of view. However, BS is much more volatile as it's tied to avoidance streaks and VB in addtion increases your healing taken significantly. As has been mentioned a few times, BS becomes significantly more useful if you still have all charges when you start taking lots of damage and the cooldown is up once all charges are lost, so that you can chain 2 BS.
Originally Posted by Frozn
You can be sure that I will never post something anymore. Your arrogance and snobism makes me feel sick, enjoy your idiot infractions. Your community just lost one of the best moonkin of the alliance (gearscore).
Some quick observations from tanking Blood Queen Lana'thel as unholy in normal ICC 10:
1. I took 100% of the damage of the main tank, so bone shield and frost presence did nothing for me, but at the same time, blood mirror damage didn't cause bone shield to lose charges, so it was up the entire fight
2. Bone shield being up 100% of the time might have helped with Shroud of Sorrow... however I took virtually no Shroud of Sorrow damage during the fight. Most people took roughly 450k damage from Shroud of Sorrow over the course of the fight, the MT took 400k, I took 6365 damage. Maybe once you're affected by Blood Mirror you stop taking Shroud of Sorrow damage?
3. My damage reduction cooldowns were useless in mitigating any mirrored damage, so it seems to me that Vampiric Blood is by far the most useful of the DK cooldowns.
I also wonder if there's any reason not to use a DPS spec with tank gear for that fight. All that seems to matter is your health, which is almost entirely from gear.
Some quick observations from tanking Blood Queen Lana'thel as unholy in normal ICC 10:
1. I took 100% of the damage of the main tank, so bone shield and frost presence did nothing for me, but at the same time, blood mirror damage didn't cause bone shield to lose charges, so it was up the entire fight
2. Bone shield being up 100% of the time might have helped with Shroud of Sorrow... however I took virtually no Shroud of Sorrow damage during the fight. Most people took roughly 450k damage from Shroud of Sorrow over the course of the fight, the MT took 400k, I took 6365 damage. Maybe once you're affected by Blood Mirror you stop taking Shroud of Sorrow damage?
3. My damage reduction cooldowns were useless in mitigating any mirrored damage, so it seems to me that Vampiric Blood is by far the most useful of the DK cooldowns.
I also wonder if there's any reason not to use a DPS spec with tank gear for that fight. All that seems to matter is your health, which is almost entirely from gear.
The offtank doesn't take shroud damage directly since you're already eating it once from blood mirror. I *think* the dot (bleed?) damage the OT takes can be reduced with talents/abilities though, so it may still be worthwhile to remain specced as a tank. As a DPS most of your damage comes from gear anyway, so the damage increase would be relatively small unless you're providing a buff that isn't present otherwise.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
On the BCB topic:
Since the Rune Strike change affects SoB and Necrosis, it is also safe to assume that it affects Killing Machine proccs and BCB proccs.
So the value of BCB is also lowered, although I haven't done the math of how much. But it certainly isn't worth the points it takes to go down that far into the UH tree as blood.
Yes, I can again verify that these talents do not proc from RS any longer. It really leaves Unholy with questionable point spends in the 10-20 range of talents. The illogical imp in me wishes to just grab the army Cd reduction for more frequent Army mitigation use, and even the permaghoul for a more reliable pact, given the lessened values of this tier.
That aside though, I am not entirely sure which of Necrosis/BCB/even Ravenous dead comes out stronger either...
Some quick observations from tanking Blood Queen Lana'thel as unholy in normal ICC 10:
1. I took 100% of the damage of the main tank, so bone shield and frost presence did nothing for me, but at the same time, blood mirror damage didn't cause bone shield to lose charges, so it was up the entire fight
2. Bone shield being up 100% of the time might have helped with Shroud of Sorrow... however I took virtually no Shroud of Sorrow damage during the fight. Most people took roughly 450k damage from Shroud of Sorrow over the course of the fight, the MT took 400k, I took 6365 damage. Maybe once you're affected by Blood Mirror you stop taking Shroud of Sorrow damage?
3. My damage reduction cooldowns were useless in mitigating any mirrored damage, so it seems to me that Vampiric Blood is by far the most useful of the DK cooldowns.
I also wonder if there's any reason not to use a DPS spec with tank gear for that fight. All that seems to matter is your health, which is almost entirely from gear.
Acclimation does proc while OT, as the damage from Blood Mirror is reflected to OT as shadow damage. So I still see Unholy being a viable tank spec during this fight as you have a 6% overall magic reduction from Magic Suppression. Also, I have tanked Keleseth during Blood Princes, and Acclimation will proc there too, which once again makes Magic Suppression another viable for UH tanking. Many of the fights have some sort of magic damage, that these talents are quite useful for, and really help mitigate damage. Acclimation will also proc for multiple magic types, fire/frost/shadow, at the same time. For a fight like Dreamwalker, where there is frost/fire, it's helpful. I have tanked as Unholy, and BS doesn't stay up for most these boss fights due to the raid aoe, and hits from the bosses, so I still find BS rather gimped in ICC, even though the overall damage reduction is nice, it isn't up enough to make me think Unholy tanking is superior to blood or frost.
On the BCB topic:
Since the Rune Strike change affects SoB and Necrosis, it is also safe to assume that it affects Killing Machine proccs and BCB proccs.
So the value of BCB is also lowered, although I haven't done the math of how much. But it certainly isn't worth the points it takes to go down that far into the UH tree as blood.
This statement is misleading, as far as I understand the nerf.
RS used to gain from Necrosis, but the 'proc nerf' means it no longer does.
KM had nothing to do with it, and nor does SoB. They're unchanged.
The nerf was that effects like Necrosis do not trigger off procs like rune strike. KM ppm hasn't changed, SoB behaviour hasn't either (procs when you take damage or dodge).
Acclimation does proc while OT, as the damage from Blood Mirror is reflected to OT as shadow damage. So I still see Unholy being a viable tank spec during this fight as you have a 6% overall magic reduction from Magic Suppression. Also, I have tanked Keleseth during Blood Princes, and Acclimation will proc there too, which once again makes Magic Suppression another viable for UH tanking. Many of the fights have some sort of magic damage, that these talents are quite useful for, and really help mitigate damage. Acclimation will also proc for multiple magic types, fire/frost/shadow, at the same time. For a fight like Dreamwalker, where there is frost/fire, it's helpful. I have tanked as Unholy, and BS doesn't stay up for most these boss fights due to the raid aoe, and hits from the bosses, so I still find BS rather gimped in ICC, even though the overall damage reduction is nice, it isn't up enough to make me think Unholy tanking is superior to blood or frost.
From what I could tell, the paladin magic reduction talent did reduce Mirror damage, so presumably Magic Suppression would as well, which coupled with AMS would lead to a "fairly significant" amount of reduction. That being said, it's probably not worth respeccing to Unholy for one fight, especially since the tank healing on it is pretty simple (beacon is awesome here). I have a PvP unholy spec which I'll try this week, since the actual tank talents are kinda useless on this fight.
Tastes like Awesome, because it's made of Awesome(TM)
Acclimation does proc while OT, as the damage from Blood Mirror is reflected to OT as shadow damage. So I still see Unholy being a viable tank spec during this fight as you have a 6% overall magic reduction from Magic Suppression.
Are you sure about that? We had standard shadow protection from the priest, and every single time the MT took damage, I took the exact same damage as the OT, and I was in frost presence with magic suppression. If there were a mechanic that could reduce the damage the OT took through resistances I'd expect to see something, but instead, every time the MT takes damage, I take the identical amount of damage half a second later:
Snipped from our WoL kill:
[21:41:51.718] Blood-Queen Lana'thel Shroud of Sorrow Deliriously 2707 (R: 800)
[21:41:52.046] Blood-Queen Lana'thel hits Deliriously 13716
[21:41:52.140] Deliriously Blood Mirror Faol 2707
[21:41:52.546] Deliriously Blood Mirror Faol 13716
[21:41:52.828] Blood-Queen Lana'thel Delirious Slash Faol 1284
[21:41:53.703] Blood-Queen Lana'thel Shroud of Sorrow Deliriously 2707 (R: 800)
[21:41:54.156] Deliriously Blood Mirror Faol 2707
[21:41:54.437] Blood-Queen Lana'thel hits Deliriously 17097
[21:41:54.890] Deliriously Blood Mirror Faol 17097
[21:41:55.718] Blood-Queen Lana'thel Shroud of Sorrow Deliriously 2707 (R: 800)
[21:41:56.046] Blood-Queen Lana'thel Delirious Slash Faol 1428
[21:41:56.171] Deliriously Blood Mirror Faol 2707
[21:41:56.859] Blood-Queen Lana'thel hits Deliriously Dodge
[21:41:57.781] Blood-Queen Lana'thel Shroud of Sorrow Deliriously 2707 (R: 800)
[21:41:58.171] Deliriously Blood Mirror Faol 2707
[21:41:59.281] Blood-Queen Lana'thel hits Deliriously 13687 (B: 3432)
[21:41:59.750] Deliriously Blood Mirror Faol 13687
Originally Posted by Mindaika
From what I could tell, the paladin magic reduction talent did reduce Mirror damage, so presumably Magic Suppression would as well, which coupled with AMS would lead to a "fairly significant" amount of reduction.
Do you have any logs you can point to that show this reduction?
Originally Posted by mako
I *think* the dot (bleed?) damage the OT takes can be reduced with talents/abilities though, so it may still be worthwhile to remain specced as a tank. As a DPS most of your damage comes from gear anyway, so the damage increase would be relatively small unless you're providing a buff that isn't present otherwise.
It's true that the Delirious Slash damage is reduced through talents and cooldowns for the OT, but it's really an insignificant amount of damage. For example, in our kill, I took roughly 150k damage from Delirious Slash and 1.3 million from blood mirror, while the raid average from Shroud of Sorrow was 400k per person, or so.
If you keep a tank spec, you have a minimum of 15 talent points (Anticipation, Blade Barrier and Toughness) that do nothing to reduce the main source of damage you take. Using a DPS spec might at the least allow you to use a perma-ghoul, gargoyle, dancing rune weapon, or some other interesting source of damage or maybe provide some raid utility. Another idea is to wear some PvP gear instead of tank gear. PvP gear tends to have high stamina while having some decent offensive stats. If the only thing that matters about your gear in this fight is the health pool, PvP gear might be worth considering.
The nerf was that effects like Necrosis do not trigger off procs like rune strike. KM ppm hasn't changed, SoB behaviour hasn't either (procs when you take damage or dodge).
Thing is that white strikes replaced by Rune Strikes won't proc those, so in the end we get less procs.
Especially frost in an aoe situation and with RS macroed to other skills will notice fewer KM procs, quite a loss in aoe threat. That's what I remember one person here mentioning a few pages back.
Do you have any logs you can point to that show this reduction?
Hmm, I don't actually. I was going off calculations for total damage taken, rather than the combat log. I'll take another look at that and see what I can come up with.
Tastes like Awesome, because it's made of Awesome(TM)
Yes. It does not however do anything for the huge drop in value Defence sees once you hit the Miss cap of 16%, which given Frigid Deathplate is deceptively simple to reach.
I have made some calculation using formula available here to found out when you reach the 16% miss cap: Diminishing Returns - Avoidance
case
Frigid Dreadplate
Runeforge
Night Elf
Def rating for being miss caped
1
Y
Y
Y
856
2
Y
Y
N
1461
How do I get this result:
Case 1:
856 def rating = 174 Def skill => 6.96 miss chance before DR
Apply the DR via the formula => 5
Add Base Miss chance (5%), Frigid Dreadplate (3%), Runeforge(1%), Night Elf racial => 16%
Case 2:
1461 def rating = 297 Def skill => 11.88 miss chance before DR
Apply the DR via the formula => 6.9944
Add Base Miss chance (5%), Frigid Dreadplate (3%), Runeforge(1%) => 16%
Conclusion:
Hit cap is easy to reach only for a Night Elf but near to impossible for the others.
I have made some calculation using formula available here to found out when you reach the 16% miss cap:
...
Conclusion:
Hit cap is easy to reach only for a Night Elf but near to impossible for the others.
Why are you adding in racials and talents? They have nothing to do with the miss cap, as has been stated before. The miss cap is the limit that the diminishing returns curve approaches. Since racials and talents are added after the diminishing returns calculation, they have no effect on the miss cap; assuming you actually did cap yourself somehow (which is impossible in current gear) racials and talents would take you above that value.
It looks like the fix has altered a lot of DK mechanics for the worse. SoB, Necrosis and KM all being of reduced effectiveness makes for much reduced TPS in every tanking spec.
I haven't seen mention of SoB but it stands to reason that it's been affected by the change as well.
Does anyone have a blue post to back up? Was this change intended?
This statement is misleading, as far as I understand the nerf.
RS used to gain from Necrosis, but the 'proc nerf' means it no longer does.
KM had nothing to do with it, and nor does SoB. They're unchanged.
The nerf was that effects like Necrosis do not trigger off procs like rune strike. KM ppm hasn't changed, SoB behaviour hasn't either (procs when you take damage or dodge).
From the testing I've done personally, Scent of Blood will not generate runic power or lose stacks from hitting with anything besides an auto attack. Killing machine uptime has been reduced while tanking rather significantly.
The trigger for SoB is completely unchanged, yes, but the secondary proc of gaining runic power on melee swings has been changed rather significantly by the 'proc nerf'.
02/08/10, 3:15 PM
