Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking - Page 102

Kashir · 08/14/09, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Deathnotes

A rotation I'm using includes the following

HB (Glyphed for it) > PS > BS > BS (to keep blood runes on CD) > DS > HB (KM/Rime procs only)

With Rune Strike bound to each of those skills...With this rotation, I have yet to see a DPS pull off of me while helping the healers out a decent amount getting 3-4k heals each DS...

Your rotation is a little... odd to say the least.

If you're using both HB and PS (requiring mismatching runes), I can only assume you're modifying the old single-target rotation (IT OB BS OB) to (PS HB BS DS).

// Edit: And if you're not using this rotation strictly, then you're going to be ending up with mismatching rune cooldowns, which is even worse

1) Multiple applications of PS is a poor use of an UR for any DK, let alone Frost.
2) DS is extremely weak compared to OB for Frost. The only time you should consider DS is if threat is a complete non-issue.
3) Your RP generation in a PS and DS heavy rotation is going to be very low compared to an OB heavy rotation. That doesn't really matter for Blood, but Frost can always convert excess RP into threat via FS.

// Edit2: Wait, also, you claim you're using Rime procs? It only procs from OB and IT. I think one of us is very confused here.

Claiming that you have no threat issues, without providing context of your raid DPS and the encounters you're doing, is all but meaningless.

leladax · 08/14/09, 6:56 AM

On starters: I found that starting with HB, assuming a HB glyph too, is a very bad idea. On multiple targets it won't be as effective as a starter DnD and on single targets it won't as fast to continue rotation as the classic IT rotation. It generally goes: multiple targets: DnD -> HB -> BB -> BT -> BB -> HB, on single targets: classic rotation similar or identical to DPS. Difference is, a DnD can be thrown when available or also as Starter.

Carnerro · 08/14/09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Manito

DnD is higher threat per second than anything you're going to get from an extra blood tap.

For me, on large AOE pulls, I do DND, IT, PS, Pest, Blood Tap, BB, and then start into my normal rotation (DS, HS, HS, DS, DS, HS, HS) since I do not use DRM. I have Morbidity 3/3, so shortly after, I can cast another DND if it is really needed, and my threat never gets beat. What is your hit rating at? Maybe you're just missing spell hits too much and not getting the threat you need out there.

Your spec seems a little off. Why Blood Worms - they give you no threat, and you shouldn't need the healing from them. Mark of Blood is very situational, and seems like a wasted point as well. DRW got nerfed hard this patch, and if I remember right, also doesn't give it's threat to you, not to mention it is more of a DPS talent. You also don't really need 3/3 in Scent of Blood - you generate more than enough RP with 2/3 in it. So that's 6 points you can reassign elsewhere for better threat and AOE abilities. Personally I have 3/3 in Spell Deflection (testing it's effectiveness with the Parry normalization numbers, so far, very promising) and 3/3 in Morbidity to help with AOE tanking so my threat never is an issue on large groups of targets.

Right now, I average about 2300 DPS on any given heroic, including heroic ToC. As a tank. Never have threat issues. Every healer I've had has said that "healing you was a snooze". So might want to look at tweaking your spec some?

I dont have issues with hit/exp both are at soft cap and somewhat above on both. I am new to blood tanking and the spec is more of an experiment. I tank in frost spec usually. Thank you for understating it, but my blood spec is VERY off. I just wanted to see what it can do.

However since I started using it I must admit that I really like blood tanking and my only concern was AOE threat. That is why I was so excited about the big numbers on BB and was wondering if BB spam would "out agro" the DND at the pull.

The third point in Scent and the Mark of blood are "fillers". I dont like spell deflection because I generally use Stone Gargoyle and my parry is at 20% buffed. I dont like the DRM because to me blood rotation feels a little unnatural using the HS spam.

This is the spec I will be going forward with. The rune tap glyph is being replaced with rune strike.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Question - since I am about 25 rating over hit soft cap, what is the best hand enchant at this point? Armsman or Crusher?

• frmorrison · 08/14/09, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Manito

You also don't really need 3/3 in Scent of Blood - you generate more than enough RP with 2/3 in it. Personally I have 3/3 in Spell Deflection (testing it's effectiveness with the Parry normalization numbers, so far, very promising)

I have had 3/3 Scent of Blood for a while, I rarely get RP capped but it has happened a few times. I do have lots of avoidance to proc lots of Rune strikes though. Regarding Spell Deflection, where is it useful (in Ulduar/CC)? Most of the spell damage are AoEs, and it doesn't work on those.

Mark of Blood would be useful if it didn't cost a Blood rune.

Bikiniwax · 08/14/09, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Carnerro

Question - since I am about 25 rating over hit soft cap, what is the best hand enchant at this point? Armsman or Crusher?

Heavy Borean Armor Kit

Arranf · 08/14/09, 12:23 PM

A large portion of my threat came from Frost Strike pre-3.2.
Is it worth looking at a double disease, obiliterate specc in 3.2 (using SoA) ?

Carnerro · 08/14/09, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Bikiniwax

Heavy Borean Armor Kit

Completely forgot leatherworking. Many thanks!!!

thedudeabides · 08/14/09, 12:55 PM

I have been a blood tank from day 1, but am looking at frost to reduce high damage spikes. This is my alt, so his gear isn't BiS, but suitable for most raid fights.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Glyph of HB obviously seems the best option in any fights with a significant number of adds (freya, throrim arena, etc), but for straight tank n spank fights, which of the following offer the best TPS:

1) howling blast glyph (single disease) HB-BS-BS-OB OB-OB-OB RPDUMP = RS/FS
2) howling blast glyph (double disease) HB-PS-BS-BS-OB-OB-OB RPDUMP = RS/FS
3) no HB glyph (replaced with glyph of rune strike) and either a single or double disease rotation

The first post shows both single target rotations using a single disease rotation. does the GCD saved by not applying blood plague outweigh the dps loss of 1 disease obliterate? that is the consensus from the Frost DPS thread, but does that translate to tanking?

Secondly, armor pen was essential as a blood dk, moving to Frost, does armor pen go from essential to "nice to have" stat? And do i want to stack hit to the melee cap (8%) or to the spell cap (i.e. do i loose dps/tps from stacking that much hit)?

leladax · 08/14/09, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Bikiniwax

Heavy Borean Armor Kit

It gives up 2% threat and little parry for 180HP. It requires a tank with very deep confidence in threat generation or low DPS in the party.

• frmorrison · 08/14/09, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by leladax

It gives up 2% threat and little parry for 180HP. It requires a tank with very deep confidence in threat generation or low DPS in the party.

Likely the person asking doesn't have to worry about threat in his party. Also most tanks (except the top 100) possibly don't have to worry about threat, since if you really need it you have taunt and Death grip (good for Hodir).

It is more than 180, since there are lots of stamina modifiers (around 210 health).

leladax · 08/14/09, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

if you really need it you have taunt and Death grip

If a tank really needs threat, taunt and grip won't save it. e.g. competing with high damage DPSes, why force them to slow down?

Is the game only about getting big hits in hard modes now?

Because even there, you surely need some more damage from the raid while keeping stamina reasonably high.

Besides, even that 'hard mode ulduar 1-shot' argument isn't solid. Not all bosses hit hard and slow, notably not even the last one.

Balance; surely stamina is the best stat but giving up every other stat for 1 stamina isn't too bright.

Carnerro · 08/14/09, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by leladax

If a tank really needs threat, taunt and grip won't save it. e.g. competing with high damage DPSes, why force them to slow down?

Is the game only about getting big hits in hard modes now?

Because even there, you surely need some more damage from the raid while keeping stamina reasonably high.

Besides, even that 'hard mode ulduar 1-shot' argument isn't solid. Not all bosses hit hard and slow, notably not even the last one.

Balance; surely stamina is the best stat but giving up every other stat for 1 stamina isn't too bright.

Stamina is linear. Ones all the softcaps have been reached and considering DR curves would't stamina be the best stat to stack?

Zelretch · 08/14/09, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Carnerro

Stamina is linear. Ones all the softcaps have been reached and considering DR curves would't stamina be the best stat to stack?

Yes, but with a long list of things you have to point out before just stacking all the stamina you can get. For example, avoidance ratings have DR, but each percent offers increasing returns on damage prevention, so it's more linear than you might think. Same with armor, it's mostly linear regarding TTL increases, and there's an excellent post by Satrina somewhere at Tankspot explaining how the values of armor and stamina interact with each other, so increasing both gives you better returns. All in all, I think ledalax's last sentence sums it up well enough: it's a good stat, it's usually the best stat, but it isn't the only stat. Regarding the enchant, I don't think it's too much of an issue, and would go with personal taste. The perceived value of 2% extra threat will vary a lot from player to player.

On a related side note, is anyone planning to get [Glyph of Indomitability] for EH instead of two Stamina trinkets?

Neith · 08/14/09, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by leladax

Balance; surely stamina is the best stat but giving up every other stat for 1 stamina isn't too bright.

Every tank has to balance his stats, it's not really an argument, it's a known long established fact. However one dimension you're not including in your point is the fact that any decent tank will have multiple sets of gear which he should regularly switch between encounters.
The balance largely depends on your job and healers. For example, if you're tanking Hodir HM and then you're tanking Steelbreaker in IC HM. If your healers are half decent you should have no issues with surviving in Hodir HM, and the DPS are going to push for 14k++ dps there, you are much better off going in full TPS gear, your avoidance and your HP aren't going to get the job done in there.
If you're tanking Steelbreaker in IC HM, you have ages to build up threat before anyone even hits him, from P1 and P2 even if you have 0 hit and 0 expertize on your gear, by the time your DPS gets there you would have at least 900k-1mil threat. If you're going in full TPS gear here - you're not going to kill him - your healers will be oom by the P3 when the real DTPS burst comes.
At least to me it was always a game of balancing the stats tailored for a specific fight given the healers that are in the raid. Trinkets specifically are the first item you should be switching around for the fights. Grim Toll for Hodir HM? Why not?

I completely agree with socketing for the stam only. The reason being you should have multiple sets of gear which you should be switching based on your knowledge of the encounter & raid setup. Look at the very first post in this thread, Suno spent time to come up with multiple tanking sets for a reason, they ALL should be socketed with stam, and even so, look at the vast difference in stats.

if you're saying you only have one tanking set... you shouldn't be posting in " DK Endgame Tanking" thread, simply because any endgame tank would have multiple tanking items that he would know how to switch around to suit the fight and raid setup to the best.

leladax · 08/14/09, 9:26 PM

^ Your argument is very solid and you won't get a disagreement from me at any part of it, except where you say all gear (collections), without any exception whatsoever should be gemmed with stamina only; this clearly can't be true in all cases in existence.

"Stamina is the best stat" isn't enough here as an argument, since if it was enough, only the stamina-based collection would be needed by all.