Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking - Page 106

• frmorrison · 08/19/09, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Manito

Warlord's Depravity? That wowhead link is out of date - the Warlord's Depravity I always see in H-TOC has shield block.

Besides, [Shard of the Crystal Forest] is better than it in all respects.

Originally the ToC items were 213, when the items were buffed to 219 (a day or two after patch), it gained 104 block value. Most ToC items are still wrong in Wowhead. Anyway, for a DK the item link as shown what is usable for a DK. When gearing up, shield block/valve items may be the best thing you have access to.

The Shard is a better item, but it would be the last priority on the Conquerer vendor since the Effective Health (stamina/armor/avoidance stats) upgrade is small over the ToC neck.

Manito · 08/19/09, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rufio

Blood AE Threat is fine, just tab an HS imho there is no need to glyph AE stuff.
Stoneskin vs Shattering is 25 Defence Skill, which in turn gives 3% avoidance and also +2% stamina vs 4% parry
Deathknight Swordshattering -vs- Stoneskin Gargoyle: tested - TankSpot

Is the tradeoff really worth it though? Because you're actually gaining 2% avoidance that contributes to your threat capabilities (Rune Strike procs), and 1% avoidance that does not, and 2% stamina (approximately 500 health for most tanks), versus gaining 4% avoidance that directly contributes 100% to Rune Strike procs. Personally, I have been able to hit Defense cap without Stoneskin, and am using Swordshattering with great success, especially since I am using Spell Deflection - which, by the way, works on a whole lot more than previously thought. I have had it trigger off of damage over time effects, most recently, from both the poison from the rogue in h-TOC, as well as from most of The Black Knight's spells (diseases, frost fever, desecration, and even ghoul explode).

I think this talent has more value than people give it credit for, and would encourage testing from higher end raiders on what effects it mitigates - for example, I am really curious to see how it performs against the jormungar, and Jaraxxus, in the new raids.

Qaenyin · 08/19/09, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Manito

Is the tradeoff really worth it though? Because you're actually gaining 2% avoidance that contributes to your threat capabilities (Rune Strike procs), and 1% avoidance that does not, and 2% stamina (approximately 500 health for most tanks), versus gaining 4% avoidance that directly contributes 100% to Rune Strike procs. Personally, I have been able to hit Defense cap without Stoneskin, and am using Swordshattering with great success, especially since I am using Spell Deflection - which, by the way, works on a whole lot more than previously thought. I have had it trigger off of damage over time effects, most recently, from both the poison from the rogue in h-TOC, as well as from most of The Black Knight's spells (diseases, frost fever, desecration, and even ghoul explode).

I think this talent has more value than people give it credit for, and would encourage testing from higher end raiders on what effects it mitigates - for example, I am really curious to see how it performs against the jormungar, and Jaraxxus, in the new raids.

Did they ever fix Spell Deflection overwriting the damage absorbtion from AMS? I remember that being a big deal back during 3.0.8 but haven't heard any news about it since.

• frmorrison · 08/19/09, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Manito

Is the tradeoff really worth it though? Because you're actually gaining 2% avoidance that contributes to your threat capabilities (Rune Strike procs), and 1% avoidance that does not, and 2% stamina (approximately 500 health for most tanks), versus gaining 4% avoidance that directly contributes 100% to Rune Strike procs.

You gain a more than 500 health (2900 stamina with nearly all stamina gems on my DK gives 580 health) , because you are stacking stamina gems instead of some Defense gems like you must use due to not using the best Runeforge.
Healers prefer a higher health target, and Blood tanking abilities like Death Strike, Rune Tap, Will and Vamp Blood scale with health.

On a more specific note to you, do you realize that Glyph of Rune Tap (with 4 talent points) only heals for 22% (instead of 20%)?

huldu · 08/20/09, 1:47 AM

I was talking to a DK(frost) on my server who have done ulduar 25. Since i new to frost and everything he gave me some advice and it looks *very* different from what i read here

Would be nice if someone could tell me if its any good or possibly "rubbish"?

AE pull rotation: howling blast or obliterate when HB on cd, 2xBlood Boil, then i assume dump, HB/OB - Thats basically it. He didnt use DnD nor plague strike/icy touch. He relied on HB glyph for frost fever.

Single target rotation: Death Chill+Obliterate, 2xBlood Strike. Frost Fever from HB procs. I believe he said he didnt use HB unless from Rime i guess. When KM went off he used Frost Strike apparently.

Why im here right now asking these questions is that, well the rotations are very off from what ive seen here. I am only lvl74 and ive tanked nexus/utgarde and plenty of dungeons in outland just "fine" so far. My rotations were kind screwed up but i guess we learn as we level i hope.

Do the following rotations still hold true for heavy frost? What is the main difference between the first single target and the alternative rotation, the alternative looks much easier to maintain and pull off? Also i notice that people dont use plague strike unless AE or even then not at all, any reason for this?

Single Target Rotation - IT-BS-OB-(Blood Tap if no Death Rune)OB RPDUMP = RS/FS
Alt-Single Target Rotation - HB-BS-BS-OB OB-OB-OB RPDUMP = RS/FS (assumes HB Glyph)
Multi Target Rotation - DnD-IT-PS-Pest then TAB-HB/Pest/BloodBoil RPDUMP = RS/FS

Sorry for all the "noob" questions, still trying to learn how to tank in the best "optimal" way.

My spec is pretty "bad" atm and not that focused on tanking but it still works okay i guess, im gonna respec later on. I would also like to know dual-wield vs two-handed tanking? I really like the new talent in frost "Threat of Thassarian".. i am dual-wielding right now. The World of Warcraft Armory

Halle · 08/20/09, 4:04 AM

Originally Posted by huldu

Would be nice if someone could tell me if its any good or possibly "rubbish"?

Threads on these forums are a collection of hard work and research from many people. You can either choose to follow this or what a random DK on your server says.

About the Standard and Alt rotations: I personally prefer the standard one as the alt one relies on HB to apply diseases.

Using HB for diseases means it's on cooldown when you might need it to get some sudden snap aggro on a small group of adds. I just prefer it to be there when I need it.

One other point with the alt rotation is that any crowd controlled mobs nearby will get hit by your HB unless you switch to IT in these situations. A small point but you never know when CC might actually start to mean something again.

Gort · 08/20/09, 4:14 AM

Originally Posted by Qaenyin

Did they ever fix Spell Deflection overwriting the damage absorbtion from AMS? I remember that being a big deal back during 3.0.8 but haven't heard any news about it since.

This was fixed quite some time ago, yes. SD and AMS play quite well with one another at the moment.

Manito · 08/20/09, 4:16 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

You gain a more than 500 health (2900 stamina with nearly all stamina gems on my DK gives 580 health) , because you are stacking stamina gems instead of some Defense gems like you must use due to not using the best Runeforge.
Healers prefer a higher health target, and Blood tanking abilities like Death Strike, Rune Tap, Will and Vamp Blood scale with health.

On a more specific note to you, do you realize that Glyph of Rune Tap (with 4 talent points) only heals for 22% (instead of 20%)?

Are you talking about me having Glyph of Rune Tap?

Do you realize that it heals my entire group for about 6k non-crit? Every 30 seconds?

Hell, I've healed myself for more heroics than I can count when the healer has either died, or DC'd, and kept the entire group up, and winning the fight, with that Glyph.

Will I use it for raiding? Obviously not. Very useful for heroic runs though. When I start raiding again, I'll replace it.

Thanks for being rude about it though. Try and stick to the subject at hand next time, rather than taking a dig at me.

Gozor · 08/20/09, 8:17 AM

I have to agree that Spell Deflection has turned out to be a handy talent. It pains me to have it on fights like Vezax, but my threat doesn't seem to suffer by not having the points allocated elsewhere. Even on that fight.

Oh, and the Rune Tap glyph question was valid. This is an end game tanking thread, not Utgarde Keep.

Glutton · 08/20/09, 9:01 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

On Maintankadin, they posted this formula for knowing when Parry > Dodge:

(character_sheet_dodge_% - 10 ) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 10) = N
If you're still below 1.88 then dodge will still give more avoidance per point.

Wouldn't this apply to DKs as well? Not that is matters much since my DK is below 1.88 (if I get the Sigil that would change), but just wondering if it applies.

I'm not sure if 1.88 will change. The formula definitely is not accurate for a DK. On first look I'd suggest something like:

(character_sheet_dodge_% - 10 ) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 5) = N

The 1.88 value may be slightly off because Paladins and DKs have different AGI to Dodge % modifiers. Since DKs get less dodge % per AGI, this could have some effect on the numerator.

DK parry % is also dependent on three significant raid buffs, while Paladin parry % is constant. It wouldn't be accurate to simply subtract 10% parry from the denominator since Forceful Deflection isn't a flat 5% and is actually subject to DR.

TLDR: The fact that DKs have significantly more parry rating subject to DR means that you'd be less likely than a Paladin to reach a point where parry becomes superior to dodge in terms of avoidance gained.

Vitanebuna · 08/20/09, 9:58 AM

Nub question inc, flame away

I see on different forums (official included :P ) people complaining as if the frost pres armor bonus sometimes does does not apply. Is it a valid concern or not, as in did it happen to you also?

To be honest i too have 2 moments where i was insta gibbed and dunno what happened post patch. The biggest lol was in a pug while OT patch 25 where he one shot me in the beggining of the fight (yes im crit immune, yes had frost pres on, ok no uld 25 HM gear, but uld 10-25 gear) and one 2 nights ago where got gibbed by a fusion punch on medium mode IC , (yes dispelled, yes frost presence on etc).

Maybe there is stuff that i missed , im not saying no to that, but would it be a valid concern that maybe smtg is wrong?

thedudeabides · 08/20/09, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Halle

Threads on these forums are a collection of hard work and research from many people. You can either choose to follow this or what a random DK on your server says.

About the Standard and Alt rotations: I personally prefer the standard one as the alt one relies on HB to apply diseases.

Using HB for diseases means it's on cooldown when you might need it to get some sudden snap aggro on a small group of adds. I just prefer it to be there when I need it.

One other point with the alt rotation is that any crowd controlled mobs nearby will get hit by your HB unless you switch to IT in these situations. A small point but you never know when CC might actually start to mean something again.

I am under the impression that the HB glyph greatly improves snap aggro on adds, and if that is your job as OT, you should definitely have it. By instantly infecting the whole group with FF, your following BBx2 will deal more damage and really stick them to you. I cannot think of any ulduar/ToC fights when a group of adds will come out instantly without warning, they are very predictable and you should easily be able to plan an 8 sec CD around them.

The debate is whether the HB glyph is worth it for a SINGLE target rotation, given the use of IT in the rotation and the added DPS/TPS from the runestrike glyph (which would replace the HB glyph).

I asked this a few pages back, but it got lost in the debate over stam/avoidance: Are there numbers (SINGLE target) comparing 1 disease (the recommened rotation), 2 disease (no HB glyph), 1 disease with HB glyph (alt rotation) and 2 disease HB glyph? The blood plague DoT isn't that much dps/tps, but does the added damage to all of the OB we use (12.5% for EACH disease) make it worthwhile? The now obsolete Frost 2H DPS thread concludes that a single disease is more dps, but i don't know how this translates to tanking.

Manito · 08/20/09, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gozor

I have to agree that Spell Deflection has turned out to be a handy talent. It pains me to have it on fights like Vezax, but my threat doesn't seem to suffer by not having the points allocated elsewhere. Even on that fight.

Oh, and the Rune Tap glyph question was valid. This is an end game tanking thread, not Utgarde Keep.

I don't see how him going over my armory and bringing a completely off topic subject into this thread was for any reason other than to be inflammatory. I never mentioned Rune Tap, or the Glyph, at ANY point. That was all his doing. Last I checked, this thread was to discuss DK Endgame Tanking, not individuals armories and what we think is wrong with them.

You don't see me going over to his armory and asking him a valid, but ultimately off topic question, about why he still has Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight when he is already defense capped, and asking him if he realizes that he'd be better off with something else.

Now, back on topic, I have been keeping a closer eye on Spell Deflection by using Parrot addon, to trigger a big, hot pink warning, and a unique sound, every time I gain the "buff" - it is going off a lot.

Have you had a chance to try it on any of the new Argent Tournament bosses at all yet Gozor? I'm curious to see if it triggers off any of those spells. Grab Parrot or some other notifier to give you a big heads up when it triggers and see what it is going off of, if you don't mind

• frmorrison · 08/20/09, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Manito

I don't see how him going over my armory and bringing a completely off topic subject into this thread was for any reason other than to be inflammatory. I never mentioned Rune Tap, or the Glyph, at ANY point. That was all his doing. Last I checked, this thread was to discuss DK Endgame Tanking, not individuals armories and what we think is wrong with them.

You don't see me going over to his armory and asking him a valid, but ultimately off topic question, about why he still has Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight when he is already defense capped, and asking him if he realizes that he'd be better off with something else.

Now, back on topic, I have been keeping a closer eye on Spell Deflection by using Parrot addon, to trigger a big, hot pink warning, and a unique sound, every time I gain the "buff" - it is going off a lot.

Have you had a chance to try it on any of the new Argent Tournament bosses at all yet Gozor? I'm curious to see if it triggers off any of those spells. Grab Parrot or some other notifier to give you a big heads up when it triggers and see what it is going off of, if you don't mind

I asked the question because using Rune Tap glyph to heal your group leads to overhealing (every healer can AoE heal now). While you may really heal people, that means the healer's group healing will likely overheal. However, if you understand that and prefer the utility versus using a threat glyph, that is okay by me (that glyph likely had little to no discussion ITT). My DK doesn't have a better sigil because I don't have badges to buy a better one yet.

I am interested in the worth of Spell Deflection in ToC (it wasn't much useful in Ulduar). Is there a buff when it goes off (so something World of Logs can track)? I know it is useful in heroics, but you could tank those in dps gear and be fine.

bluedragon · 08/20/09, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

I am interested in the worth of Spell Deflection in ToC (it wasn't much useful in Ulduar). Is there a buff when it goes off (so something World of Logs can track)? I know it is useful in heroics, but you could tank those in dps gear and be fine.

There is, if you just want to see a flat out "number of procs" you can check the buffs cast tab:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If you want to look at exactly what it proc'd on, it gets a bit more tedious. You have to go to the log browswer. I suggest doing this after checking only the specific fight you want to see, because there's a limit to the results it returns. WWS is better about this since the result isn't limited.

In this case it would be something like:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Then you get all hits done on you, and check all Spell Deflection procs on you, an example of the query you can paste:
[{"spellNames": ["Spell Deflection"], "targetNames": ["Bluedragon"]}, {"eventTypes": [1], "targetNames": ["Bluedragon"]}]