Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking - Page 11

Funky Junky · 02/10/09, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Griefknight

I think that SS works better though, because those 3 strikes will take effect faster then a DnD and I don't know what type of rotation you would do with DnD. You also can't use DnD effectively on multiple raid bosses which makes SS superior.

I already told Buck what spec to edit in for the blood spec part so no need to worry about that.

I personally roll Unholy tank, I started frost and loved it but, I just cant deny unholy seems so much better in my own opinions. Also from a personal stand point, even in single target boss fights like Grobbulus or heigan where im doing a lot of moving, its very easy to find a 10 second slot where u can keep the boss on a DnD or atleast a large majority of the time. Whenever I do anything without D&D it just feels wrong. I have far from ANY threat problems I usually sustain about 5k tps on a normal 10 man fight when I'm not doing anything that requires amazing attention to detail, and that's while paying attention to raid members, making calls that need to be made and making sure everyone is on the ball.

I notice the rotation Buck has on the OP, let me say buck is an amazing person to manage the responsibility of the OP, Ive seen him on these forums since day one, and hes given me answers to problems more than a couple times, even though sometimes I have different opinions on talents or anything like that I know it comes through how I play and I respect he can lay a good foundation for anyone to play effectiely

that being said my favorite rotation to start any boss usually consists of

DnD>PS>IT>BS>DS(personal Preference)>(ERW)/Blood Strike>DUMP and repeat from there,
I have no problems sustaining this rotation, I never have anyone come close to keeping up with my threat and I personally think it holds a lot of room for recovery if you have more to pay attention to than threat gen

crd · 02/10/09, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by djt81185

What kind of rotation are you looking at for these blood builds without annihilation?

I am assuming you are still talking about the blood Sarth 3D builds so I will reply. Just keep up diseases and use leftover FU runes for Death Strikes (healing + death runes, threat is a non issue in this fight) which will give death runes if you specced into Death Rune Mastery. Use those death runes for more Heart Strikes.

IT/PS/HS/HS/DS
IT/PS/HSx4

Something like that. Mind you the specs posted for 3D Sarth will not be awesome threat so do not expect this to be your new all the time build. However, this rotation above worked fine for me and kept me topped off a little more often.

Kashir · 02/10/09, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by crd

IT/PS/HS/HS/DS
IT/PS/HSx4

Something like that. Mind you the specs posted for 3D Sarth will not be awesome threat so do not expect this to be your new all the time build. However, this rotation above worked fine for me and kept me topped off a little more often.

Why not just skip the HSx4 entirely, and drop DRM? For any fight where threat is a non-issue, that's a little extra free healing, 3 talent points and a GCD saved.

Volrath50 · 02/11/09, 12:43 AM

I'm the (unofficial, but effective) main tank of Tempest, anyway last week, after my guild was having some trouble with Patchwerk, I respecced from unholy to Blood, and I've really, really been loving blood as a main tank spec. I personally feel the safest with it, with a gigantic health pool (52k buffed + VB), extra healing, and an Ardent Defender copy that actually isn't leapfrogged. Plus, I feel I have the best emergency buttons overall. Since I respecced, although it certainly isn't just me, our runs have been smoother, and things have died easier.

Anyway, I tried at first with Imp. Rune Tap. It's a nice emergency button, and when glyphed, can be really nice in heroics and 10 mans (the glyph is great on Loatheb and Malygos). Less so in 25s. Still neat though. In general though, with Naxx being easy, I switched those points out for Hysteria, to put on our Fury Warrior, and Blood Aura for some free ambient healing.

On that note, does anyone know of an Addon that notifies you when Will of the Necropolis takes effect? I know one of our pally tanks had something like this for Ardent Defender a while ago.

notebook · 02/11/09, 1:25 AM

I have not tried Blood for 3D 10 man as I just feel much safer with BS up most of the time. In 25 man, I just put our Druid on Sarth and he eats a couple of the breaths then gets 3 cooldowns (Sacrifice, BS, GS). In the 10 man, I cycle them so that AMS and IBF are back up so I can have 6-8 total cooldowns available. BS, IBF, AMS, Sacrifice, PS (AMZ), GS, AMS, IBF+BS etc. Not really sure if Blood can allow that flexibility, but again, I haven't tried it. Imp Rune Tap definitely seems like a lifesaver in some situations (I can't count how many times I've been overkilled by 100-1000 or so because I wasn't topped off right when breath went off).

On an unrelated note:

4197 DPS (9864 TPS) on Patchwerk (2:11 kill time).

No Sigil, no BoH.

43% crit rate on Obliterate.

Wow Web Stats

Volrath50 · 02/11/09, 1:44 AM

Originally Posted by notebook

On an unrelated note:

4197 DPS (9864 TPS) on Patchwerk (2:11 kill time).

No Sigil, no BoH.

43% crit rate on Obliterate.

Eep. I really need to try frost out one of these days. We both have quite similar gear, but I only get about 2k DPS as Blood, and the highest I got as Unholy was 2900 DPS.

djt81185 · 02/11/09, 2:03 AM

I cannot get near that dps rate on a single target with my gear and spec...WTF am I doing wrong we were actually having some threat problems but then again the classes went using their threat dumps. my tps is real spikey itll be 1.5k tps 1 sec then 6.5k the next and that is with 8% hit and 22 expertise. take a look and give me a hand if u can.

I do
IT PS BS BS SS RP Dump
then SS SS SS RP Dump and repeat. I try and keep up unholy blight as much as possible. Should I be dropping DND instead somehow? for more threat?

Id really like an all around spec that I can MT naxx 25 and 3d sarth if possible. I hate respeccing. I spent 250g today on respecs trying blood and stuff and didnt like it. didnt try frost cause we had 2d attempts coming up.

Zerres · 02/11/09, 2:26 AM

Hello all. I've been a long time reader, first time poster, so go easy on me ;-).

As any DK tank who has DPS worth their salt in guild can attest, the big eye is on pumping out threat right now. I was a long time Unholy tank and tanked trash like nobody's business but found that my ST threat was lacking in boss fights when we have 2 warlocks and a Spriest who are ranked top 20 worldwide in their respective classes for patchwerk dps.

I switched to a blood build this week and was happily surprised at the increased single target threat. Its not amazing threat like you frost guys are putting out, but it does enough to stay ahead of our dps while still maintaining the stats i want to have for progression when ulduar comes along. I'm not interested in lowering my avoidance/hp in order to put out wtf huge threat #'s, as long as i'm ahead of the dps i'm happy =).

I'm currently using the blood build in the OP, but with the changes coming in 3.1 will be trying out a spec as such:

http://www.wowhead.com

The 3 points in morbidity helps to fuel what is to become the new sudden doom along with reducing my DND cooldown which makes aoe tanking much better. Points are dropped from Rune Tap and Spell Deflection as I feel the points are wasted anyway. Rune Tap without the 3 points in imp. rune tap feels lackluster and I feel Spell Deflection is not a mandatory talent by any means.

This build is tentative and is highly dependent on talent shuffling in Frost and how good Sudden Doom is compared to the changes on Blood Gorged. I'll be testing both the OP blood build and this build when the patch comes out to see what comes out ahead. Sudden Doom may be neutered depending on if it's still auto crit or not, and any kind of internal cooldown it may have placed on it. But at first glance it looks to be a decent threat boost.

I've tanked 3D sarth as the OP blood build this week with no problem, only 1 outside cooldown(IBF, AMS, GS). The trick is not tons of cooldowns.....its getting your dps to crank it out so that shadron + acolyte + twilight torment are only up for 2-3 breaths.

kbruin · 02/11/09, 2:34 AM

This post is for notebook. With your frost spec. I'm curious have you tried just going diseaseless and cutting icy touch out? That may seem silly or that it is an obvious gimp to TPS/DPS, but I'm wondering if it would allow for more casts of other strikes or free up the rotation some from needing to BT or HC to get the ball rolling. Just an idea of something else to try. I thought of it because sometimes when my timing is off I'll cast something after my icy touch wears off and the hit doesn't seem that much lower. Let me know what you think.

notebook · 02/11/09, 2:56 AM

I can't really comment on Blood or Unholy as I haven't played either since I leveled. I tanked as Unholy for about a week then switched to Frost. I do know, however, that one of my guildmates is (at the time of this post) in the top 15 or so for DPS/TPS using Unholy, and his record was set with a 185 DPS weapon (Titanium Destroyer).

Getting ridiculous DPS and TPS #'s is a result of a a bunch of variables.
Gear.
Practice.
Skill.
Practice.
Lots of reading and discussion (hi Ghaash!).
Lot's of experimentation (and thus gold).
Respeccing.
More practice.
... and of course, overall raid DPS (shorter fight time).

Volrath:

With a bit more expertise and the Sigil of Frozen Conscience, I think you will notice solid DPS and TPS increases. If you are still progressing, stick with what you have. It's very nice.

djt81185:

Ditch the 10 Parry / 2% TPS enchant and go for expertise. I lost a lot of expertise when switching to DB (for the hit) so I had to use Mark of Norgannon. Soon as Grim Toll drops, I'll be back to Inevitable Defeat (a weapon I much prefer to use for tanking). Get you expertise to 6.50% as soon as possible, higher if you can. This is somewhat tricky with a DB if you don't have access to a Mark, but you definitely can gem for it a bit. The rest of your stats are very solid. If you are going for raw DPS/TPS, I suggest using Monarch Crab with a 27 Expertise and a 24 stam, and filling out the rest of your gear with 2 more 27 expertise gems. Once you get an ID you can replace them with hit (that you'll lose from the DB).

I used to run 2x 27 hit gems, 1x 41 stam gems, but I wanted to try Rune of the Fallen Crusader. I needed to regem for defense (as I was using Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle), which made me lose a ton of hit. I had to swap out the 27-hit gems for 27 def gems. Then I had to use Mark to cover the expertise loss from Inevitable Defeat. I'm hoping Grim Toll drops which will allow me to use Inevitable Defeat again.

As I mentioned to Volrath, if you are in progression, keep your health and avoidance up as much as possible. Don't bother experimenting with DPS/TPS until you know the encounters well, and more importantly, you know your healers can keep you up with a lot less health and less avoidance. You aren't doing the healers too many favors by taking more damage... but your DPS will love you!

As for an all around spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Single Target:

HB (or OB), OB, BS, IT > ... (repeat) (need blood tap to set this up)

A more complex version is:

IT, HB, (blood tap), OB, BS > ...
HB, IT, OB, BS > ...
HB, OB, IT, BS > ... (repeat forever)

This is what I used (with 2 pts into RPM instead of 2HWS) for everything in the game except 3DSarth MT. If you plan to MT Sarth 3D, you will almost always have to respec our of Frost (well, at least I do!). However, there are some interesting Blood specs coming out lately that might work for an all-arounder, but I can't say for certain. Generally, you'll skip points in MS and AMZ for other TPS talents for an all-around spec... something you might need for Sarth.

I very very very much like the above spec.

However, a more basic version would be:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Single Target:

PS, IT, HB, BS, BS > ...
HB, OB, OB > ...
PS, IT, OB, BS, BS > ...

This sacrifices Virulence for Morbidity, and 2HWS for Epidemic. These allow you more breathing room as you won't have to constantly refresh diseases every single cycle, and your DnD is up way more often. This is a much more forgiving spec, especially good if you are just making the switch over to Frost and need to get acclimated to it.

Kbruin:

That's something I definitely want to look into. I'll run some more tests.

Ghaash · 02/11/09, 6:34 AM

Originally Posted by notebook

Ditch the 10 Parry / 2% TPS enchant and go for expertise. I lost a lot of expertise when switching to DB (for the hit) so I had to use Mark of Norgannon. Soon as Grim Toll drops, I'll be back to Inevitable Defeat (a weapon I much prefer to use for tanking).

I dont see how 15 expertise ~ -0.45% dodge/parry are worth more than 2% TPS. Am i missing something (except for it won't show on meters, i guess)?

Don't demonize DB per se, orc DKs get 5 expertise skill or 41 expertise rating (1.25%) for it being an axe. That makes it a choice (threatwise) between
DB:
1.96% crit (melee and spell)
62 hit rating

ID:
1.28% crit (melee)
37 expertise rating

(str and str+ap from armor being roughly equal)
Of course, ID has 6 more stamina, ~0.80% dodge with my gear and 160 Armor, which makes it a clear winner for survival.

aroarian0 · 02/11/09, 8:25 AM

So my guild just drafted me as the new 3drake tank....as far as a i know im geared enough for it...im close to 33k hp unbuffed(i use my essence with the JC trinket and have a 2nd helm of vital protection with the 2% spell reduction meta in it)...i will use a slightly modified 3drake spec and will have a passive 25% spell reduction with vigilance.

Spec ill be using

I have been looking through the tank posts, and i admit not reading every single post, but i havent found any information on timing or rotation suggestions for tanking 3 drakes. Im sure i can figure it out as i go....but i for one don't even know what his "50k breath" is called. If anyone has a link to a forum....or a experienced 3drake tank would like to verbally spill the beans i would appreciate it.

Ghaash · 02/11/09, 9:20 AM

Originally Posted by aroarian0

(i use my essence with the JC trinket and have a 2nd helm of vital protection with the 2% spell reduction meta in it)

I'm pretty sure the druids in the Sartharion 3D Druid MT tips thread figured out, that the [Effulgent Skyflare Diamond] does not reduce "Spell Damage Taken" but rather increases resistances from gear by 2%.

notebook · 02/11/09, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Ghaash

I dont see how 15 expertise ~ -0.45% dodge/parry are worth more than 2% TPS. Am i missing something (except for it won't show on meters, i guess)?

Assuming 7500 TPS, would you rather have the 15 expertise or 150 additional TPS? Speaking for myself, I would definitely rather have the expertise than the marginal TPS gain (197 TPS from our last PW kill). I personally use HIT on my gloves, but that's just because I like being hit capped. Once that is done, I put expertise where I can fit it (within reason).

Don't demonize DB per se, orc DKs get 5 expertise skill or 41 expertise rating (1.25%) for it being an axe. That makes it a choice (threatwise) between
DB:
1.96% crit (melee and spell)
62 hit rating

ID:
1.28% crit (melee)
37 expertise rating

(str and str+ap from armor being roughly equal)
Of course, ID has 6 more stamina, ~0.80% dodge with my gear and 160 Armor, which makes it a clear winner for survival.

I wasn't demonizing DB. In fact, I'm currently using it over ID until Grim Toll drops for my TPS set. I always use the ID for my survival set.

Anyway... neither of them are Orc DK's. I was merely stating what I was doing in terms of gear swapping for stats. I'd much prefer to use ID + GT than DB + Mark for my TPS set... but that's simply my own personal preference. If I was an Orc, I would have a much harder time deciding. Gaining Grim Toll would net me 21 hit, 9 expertise (assuming I was swapping from GT + DB -> Mark + ID). I'd lose a bit of spell crit (not important when I switch to an Oblit-only rotation) and gain the other stats you mentioned.

On a side note, Grim Toll would also let me regem many of my +16 hit gems with +24 stams for my survival set.

Again, I much prefer the ID.

Crax · 02/11/09, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Griefknight

The highest (in my opinion) single-target blood spec is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and that means you will be using a IT>PS>OB>HS>HS//OB>OB>HS>HS// rotation. The "situational" 8% damage is up more often then you think, if you have 40k raid buffed HP you just need to be above 30k to get the extra 8% damage and with decent gear/healers that shouldn't be a problem on most fights.

If you're going with that rotation, why on earth would you spec DRM?