Many DKs haven't picked it up because they haven't been informed that it now transfers threat. It was never in any patch notes.

It's useful for building threat quickly at the start of a fight, like LK, or for simply doing more damage.

The problem with DRW (at least for me) is the 60 Runic Power you need to use it, especially at the beginning of a fight.

DRW has been discussed already, with the conclusion being that it's useless as a TPS talent, but can contribute to tank DPS nicely (somewhere around 5% for a single point, if I'm not mistaken). This thanks to the fact that you do have free points to spare in a deep blood tanking build.

I know threat is a pretty big concern on the LK, but if you can manage your Death Strikes and, if you took the talent(s), Rune Taps well, that will go a long way with healers moving/getting picked up. Don't forget about Death Pact, and use your cooldowns generously in Phase 1 - you shouldn't really need IBF during the transition phase. If you do need a cooldown, VB and/or 4PC should be up before the transition phase is over.

Several things wrong here:

You should not be taking 41-44k melee hits from LK. Post a parse from your pulls and I can help you a bit more w/ that. Ensure you have the boss fully debuffed (Demo/Vind/etc) and yourself fully buffed (AF or Insp / Keep up BladeBarrier / Sacred shield / Imp Devo / Sanc or Disc priest 3% dmg reduc / Imp Stoneskin / etc). Also, if you have a Val'nyr in the raid that will help substantially also. In p1, just save your cds for the last bit of the phase (VB/IBF) and that will help w/ the excessive melee's due to the p1 dmg buff on LK.

I am usually taking roughly 33-37k melee's from LK. I have been tanking him since before the ICC buff because active so I have quite a bit of experience on this encounter. If you have anymore questions, please post.

Here is a log from our last week's clear if you would like to take a look at it. You can also go back and check logs all the way from when we were pulling in late Feb/Early March if they are still up:

WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay


If you get more than 1 of your healers picked up (ie you have 2 holy pallies and both get picked up) make sure to pull out your pet and pool RP to sac it if needed. That will buy you enough time to hopefully have someone else pick up the slack if needed.




As far as the DRW topic, it's far from useless. Go back and read this thread if you want references on why I say that:


Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking

Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking
Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking
Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking
http://elitistjerks.com/f23/t27839-t...1/#post1600270 <-- reply got reported and I got a temp ban from "2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.", but you can see the point that is being made regardless of the choice of wording.

I'm not sure how you could possibly be taking ~20% less damage per hit than me. I have more armor than you do (by about 600)

looking at WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay it appears the lich king's average melee hit against you was 44k. Am i missing something here?

edit: that number was being skewed by him hitting Negiva for 955,673? now its on the absurdly low side

4,031,042 damage in 215 hits. 18.7k average?

Sorry if this has already been covered: I have been debating with my GM about the use of AMS for Soul Reaper. My stance is that AMS works as a CD because it's all Shadow Damage. He says the damage is "Shadowstrike" and that it can be physical or shadow. So is AMS actually reliable as a CD for Soul Reaper?

If you remove all resistance buffs from you (eg: shadow resist aura, mark of the wild) and have enough armor that the shadow version of the spell would do more damage than you than a physical strike would, then yes AMS is fine as a cooldown. I am not sure how much armor is needed, but it is not too much.

It does not work like shadowstrike. AMS will absorb SR everytime when used correctly. Yes, I am aware you can see some logs posted on R/D and various other forums where the AMS was active and did not absorb any dmg, but that is not due to the dmg being taken as physical. I have also had this happen to me before and initially chalked it up to 'shadowstrike' dmg, but again that is not the case. Even with Shadow prot / iGotW / aegis of dalaran 268 resists and such, AMS will still absorb the 2nd tick of SR.

This was a hot topic on our guild forums during progression for LK lol. I have went through more logs than I can count trying to find out a reason for why sometimes AMS does not absorb correctly. What a few people in my guild came up with is that latency is the largest factor. I have seen some pretty insane shit for timestamps on this fight. Anything from Ragings being taunted and killing someone in the .3 seconds it took between the taunt to be cast and register to Holy Lights hitting for full overheal up to 1 second after taking a 38k melee. The times where I had AMS (5secs) not work I was casting it nearly immediately after receiving the SR debuff (5seconds). Anytime you are cutting it to w/in a second or so on that fight I learned it is nothing more than nearly a 50/50 diceroll on being effective. Once I started using AMS 1-2 seconds before the 2nd tick of SR I have yet to have it fail.

Anyways, people can say anything, but w/o logs it doesnt mean much. SO, here ya go


Totals for Soul Reaper from this week's kill:

Spell - Dmg total from 1st hit - #of hits - #of ticks - Dmg total from ticks - total absorb
Soul Reaper- 625423 - 11 - 11 - 317370 - 507688

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

As you can see, after absorbs I took 435105dmg. That is only 39555 total per Soul Reaper (this includes both initial and 2nd tick dmg). You can see a huge difference in the amount of dmg taken on the initial hit and the tick. Since I AMS+Sind Trinket+4pc+VB every other SR that is why the dmg intake from the ticks are almost half of the initial hits. AMS will absorb more than 45k every time it is used < 2 secs before the last tick from SR (dependent on the DK's hp pool obv)

Here is an segment from when AMS did NOT absorb correct, and as you can see from the timestamps, I cast it w/in the same second of taking the SR's initial hit:

[21:53:14.846] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:53:14.919] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:53:15.247] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 25764 (A: 3770, R: 8709)
[21:53:16.064] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:53:16.064] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:53:19.500] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades
[21:53:19.667] The Lich King hits Riggnaros 14647 (A: 8131)
[21:53:19.900] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 45513 (A: 8031)

Here are several segments of it working properly (again, I have yet to have it NOT absorb since waiting until < 2 seconds before the final tick of SR):

[21:58:02.949] Riggnaros gains Aegis of Dalaran from Riggnaros
[21:58:02.949] Riggnaros casts Aegis of Dalaran
[21:58:07.989] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:58:08.128] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 22431 (A: 10137, R: 29102)
[21:58:08.128] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:58:11.965] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:58:11.965] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:58:12.964] Riggnaros's Aegis of Dalaran fades
[21:58:13.094] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 5034 (A: 47189)
[21:58:13.094] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[21:58:13.650] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:58:16.992] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[21:59:07.923] Riggnaros gains Aegis of Dalaran from Riggnaros
[21:59:07.923] Riggnaros casts Aegis of Dalaran
[21:59:10.994] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:59:11.122] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros Absorb (43919)
[21:59:11.122] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:59:14.481] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:59:14.481] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:59:16.078] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros Absorb (52223)
[21:59:16.078] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[21:59:16.659] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:59:17.925] Riggnaros's Aegis of Dalaran fades
[21:59:19.542] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[22:02:01.165] Riggnaros gains Aegis of Dalaran from Riggnaros
[22:02:01.165] Riggnaros casts Aegis of Dalaran
[22:02:11.151] Riggnaros's Aegis of Dalaran fades
[22:03:21.008] Riggnaros gains Aegis of Dalaran from Riggnaros
[22:03:21.008] Riggnaros casts Aegis of Dalaran
[22:03:21.676] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[22:03:21.744] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 41721 (R: 31167)
[22:03:21.744] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[22:03:25.307] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[22:03:25.307] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[22:03:25.795] Riggnaros gains 491 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[22:03:26.707] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 13275 (A: 49193)
[22:03:26.707] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[22:03:27.386] Riggnaros gains 503 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[22:03:30.323] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades
[22:03:30.992] Riggnaros's Aegis of Dalaran fades


[22:05:06.598] Riggnaros gains Aegis of Dalaran from Riggnaros
[22:05:06.598] Riggnaros casts Aegis of Dalaran
[22:05:09.268] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[22:05:09.378] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 35119 (A: 6197, R: 30865)
[22:05:09.378] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[22:05:12.442] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[22:05:12.442] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[22:05:14.295] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros Absorb (59345)
[22:05:14.295] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[22:05:14.868] Riggnaros gains 478 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[22:05:16.606] Riggnaros's Aegis of Dalaran fades
[22:05:17.474] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades
[22:05:18.071] Riggnaros gains 416 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell

As you can see, the ones where AMS is active (every other SR) and used correctly, the absorb amount is anywhere from 47 to almost 60k lol. I have VB up for each of these as well so that will amplify the amount which is absorbed. DK's are tailor made for this encounter due to our numerous cd's and short timers on things like AMS and VB. You just have to be able to juggle all of them. VB + 4pc + Sind + AMS on every other SR (all w/in a few seconds) while moving the boss and watching for defiles can get a bit hectic :P Also, going Imp Runetap is pretty huge for this fight. I recommend picking it up and using it after each SR since it can heal for ~20k - ish (depending on your hp).

I could go back and post dozens and dozens of more logs where it works each and every time you just wait to use it instead of popping it immediately after receiving SR. Latency on LK is so killer its insane. Again, I could be wrong and have the luckiest RNG out of any person in the world and somehow manage to take 100 SR's in a row as magic dmg while having Sind trinket (heroic), sometimes having shadow AM active, shadowprot, imp gift, etc. If I am missing something or just flat our wrong, let me know. There could be a reason behind all this that I am just missing, but either way it goes, this is working 100% of the time.

Source from these log segments: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Hope this helps

On another note, I know there are probably a lot of DK's out there who are finding themselves already in or being considered for a MT role on LKhm (10 or 25). This fight is hands down the hardest in the game (although it is getting easier each month ) and you will need to be fully min/max'd in every area if you plan on not being a weak link and contributing moreso to the problem than the solution.

There are several things that you will need to know for this fight if you are just now planning to go in for serious pulls or you have already been pulling it and just need a bit more of an edge. Spec / itemization / cd usage are the three main parts of what I will discuss.

Starting w/ spec - I would recommend the following spec+glyph choices:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This spec gives you a respectable dmg/tps output while having defensive choices (imp RT and MoB).

I personally take the 1pt out of MoB and use it in DRW, but that it just becasue of the stacking ICC buff. MoB isnt really needed for us right now. However, if you are still on progression and feel at the risk of dying often, pick up MoB over DRW. DRW can produce quite a bit of TPS/DPS on that fight however so just make sure to weigh your pros and cons before making the decision.

It did 4.1% of my total dmg this past week on our kill (Not bad for 1 talent point): WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

The taunt glyph is extremely useful for picking up ragings. While, yes, I spam taunt + IT on the mob as it is spawning, misses do happen. Sometimes on both the IT and Taunt ><. Tricks is up also for the tanks, but if you are fully min/maxing your dps, they will be on it instantly. 1 global wasted=someone is dead. You need every edge you can get on making sure that raging sticks to you instantly. Also, make sure to AMS the shriek to avoid the silence if you are going to be picking up a raging while you still have one on you. The only other option would really be the DS glyph, but I would weigh the taunt glyph over it due to the importance of making sure ragings are picked up immediately to allow dps maximum uptime.

I see too many DK tanks picking up 3/3 Morbitity. Don't. It is pointless on nearly every fight in ICC. You can pick up adds on Deathwhisper and Dreamwalker just fine w/o picking it up.




Itemization:

As a general rule of thumb stamina is king on this fight, but do NOT overlook armor and avoidance. You should want to be at or around 40k~ish armor, but avoid using armor trinkets.

Trinkets- Like I said, avoid armor trinkets and try and have both w/ stamina. [Satrina's Impeding Scarab], [Corroded Skeleton Key], [Sindragosa's Flawless Fang], etc are all good choices. [Glyph of Indomitability] and other armor or avoidance trinkets are not a good choice for this fight ([Unidentifiable Organ]being an exception, but you run the risk of the stm buff falling off which is critical). Remember there are several times where you will go a few seconds w/o getting hit due to him casting Infest into a Defile and also travel time if you are moving w/ valks. Times like this I have had the organ buff fall off quite a few times which made me switch to Sind trinket + CSK (also a nice absorb when needed).

4pct10- I would say almost mandantory to use that for this fight. The 12% dmg reduction is amazing for Soul Reapers (i will elaborate more later). 4pc w/ [Pillars of Might] is the way to go unless you are in full 277. Then I would suggest going 4pc + [Broken Ram Skull Helm] to gain a bit more expertise/hit/defense/EH at the loss of only about 800 armor.

Bracers / Neck / Cloak / Rings / Belt - All of these item slots should be focused on armor value. [Gargoyle Spit Bracers] / [Bile-Encrusted Medallion] / [Sentinel's Winter Cloak] /[Ashen Band of Endless Courage]+ [Devium's Eternally Cold Ring]or [Loop of the Twin Val'kyr] / [Verdigris Chain Belt]. These all give you a maximum amount of armor value for their respective slots. Armor is your friend and will keep you from taking over 40k melee's from LK in phases 2 and 3.

Boots- If you have picked up the [Grinning Skull Greatboots], use those. If you don't have them yet the [Boots of Kingly Upheaval] are fine as are the [Scourge Fanged Stompers]. If you don't have the Dreamwalker boots, you will probably be low on expertise. Depending if TPS is an issue for you or not then consider using Exp food since its a better choice item pt for pt than agi food if you need the exp.


Wpn(s)- Any 2h you have access to from ICC is enough to get the job done. Atm, I am currently using Heroic Bloodfall for my 2h. The main thing about this section is to pick up two tanking 1h wpns if possbile. I DW blood tank everything outside of p1 and transitions w/

[Last Word] and [Crusader's Glory]

You will gain avoidance / stm (in some cases) / armor mitigation / wpn buff from last word. However, this is quite a bit of a threat reduction, but as long as you can keep up w/ enough output for what your raid is putting out it is a good trade off imo.

This is a threat parse from the WMO TPS leaderboards:

6 Riggnaros Forlorn Legacy US-Windrunner 6596 06-14
WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

Another thing about Last word is that, yes, you can DW them, but the buff does not stack. I am curious if it would stack if you had 1 heroic and 1 non heroic. I have only tried DW w/ both being ilvl 277. If anyone knows I wouldn't mind finding out




CD Usage:

This is the MOST CRITICAL PART of the encounter for a DK tank. ENSURE you memorize when and why you should be using each and every cooldown. DK's can dominate this fight, but you HAVE to be on top of your game with your cd management. There are some ppl who just look at it like 'oh just pop a cd for each of these SR's lol thats not hard", but you have to remember there is a ton of other shit going on that will be occupying your time. Boss positioning to keep him in cleave range while dps'ing valks and still be in position to drop your defile correctly is also a huge priority. You need to be paying attention to make sure you also have demo on the boss as well as keeping up blade barrier and making sure AF/Insp is active. The instant one of these buffs/debuffs fall off, its YOUR job to call it out and get it back active. W/o demo and 10% dmg reduc from Insp/AF you will risk getting 2 shot by normal melee's from the boss. Not to mention you still need to put out a respectable amount of TPS during this whole process to avoid having to waste tricks on a tank instead of another dps and threat capping your raid.

The reason I start w/ IBF is because learning the fight pre ICC buff was when I made the list initiall. IBF is the most dmg reduction and we were getting everything stabilized coming out of t1 (transition 1) so it gave healers the insurance to get everything up to speed and not having to worry if I am going to die. ***EACH OF THESE COOLDOWNS HAS TO BE POPPED 1-2 SECONDS BEFORE THE SOUL REAPER IS APPLIED!!!!!!!!*** If you are doing it reactively instead of proactively, you WILL get combo'd by SR + normal melee w/in the same timestamp at some point. You HAVE to have these cd's active before you get the SR applied.

p2:
1st SR= IBF
2nd SR= VB+4pc+Sind Trink - AMS
3rd SR= PS+Sac/Safeguard
4th SR= VB+4pc+Sind Trink - AMS
5th SR= IBF
6th SR= VB+4pc+Sind Trink - AMS
7th SR= Sac/Safeguard + GS
8th SR= VB+4pc+Sind Trink - AMS

p3:
1st SR = VB+4pc+Sind Trink - AMS (coming out of Frostmourne room 1)
2nd SR= IBF
3rd SR= VB+4pc+Sind Trink - AMS (coming out of FM2)
4th SR= GS+Sac
5th SR= VB+4pc+Sind Trink - AMS (coming out of FM3)
6th SR= IBF
7th SR= VB+4pc+Sind Trink - AMS (coming out of FM4)
8th SR= Army / Priest CD or whatever else is up. He will be enraging about this time, so its not really important lol.

These cd map also gives you some fluctuation on other shit. You still have Army / Death Pact / badge trinket absorb at your disposal to use whenever you feel the need. I personally pull my pet out if any 2 out of our 2 pallies and resto shaman are picked up and pool RP to sac if needed. Also, the CSK absorb is nicely timed for use on the SR you take a GS on since there is no dmg reduction at all on that one.



Anyways, I hope that helps some people who are just getting their feet wet w/ the fight or already have a ton of pulls and just needed a bit of assistance. There is still plenty of other topics to go over (mainly positioning), but that is such a dynamic area it would be better discussed on a case by case basis. If someone has questions or would like to dispute something I have listed, feel free to post and we can discuss.

The parses you posted are by no means proof of anything other than that there's a bug where AMS sometimes falls off prematuredly. This bug is already known. Your post is no proof of Soul Reaper not being Shadowstrike. If you have any actual proof of that, I'd be happy to hear it, but putting it down to lag when you don't know for sure is rather silly.

This is what the log would look like when Soul Reaper hits for physical damage. It's taken from a raid about two months ago when I was testing out an avoidance setup rather than max armor for the encounter.

[23:18:34.258] Ilissa afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[23:18:37.388] Ilissa gains Anti-Magic Shell from Ilissa
[23:18:37.388] Ilissa casts Anti-Magic Shell
[23:18:39.213] The Lich King Soul Reaper Ilissa 41468
[23:18:39.240] Ilissa's Soul Reaper fades
[23:18:40.913] Ilissa's Anti-Magic Shell fades

[23:19:40.855] Ilissa afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[23:19:44.471] Ilissa gains Anti-Magic Shell from Ilissa
[23:19:44.474] Ilissa casts Anti-Magic Shell
[23:19:45.841] The Lich King Soul Reaper Ilissa 43650
[23:19:45.887] Ilissa's Soul Reaper fades
[23:19:47.962] Ilissa's Anti-Magic Shell fades

No one is confusing resistance w/ absorbs. You can resist the initial hit, but not the 2nd tick, thus using Sind trinket for the former. The dmg you take will be one of the two, not both. If it is physical, AMS wont do shit other than return Runic. If it is magical, it will absorb, which is what it is doing. AMS working each and every time I have used since waiting until 1-2 sec before SR wears off it confirms that the dmg taken is magical, not physical.



Like I said in my post. If it were taken as physical dmg, it wouldn't be absorbing 50k~ish dmg everytime I use it. Posting several examples of logs with having extremely high resist levels and still being able to absorb the SR nearly in full confirms that. If anything it is just an actual bug, not 'shadowstrike' related. I refuse to believe that out of 30 SR's taken w/ Shadow prot + Imp Gift + ilvl277 trinket and an occasional AM of Shadow Aura not one was taken as physical dmg.

The occurrences where it doesn't work properly show zero consistencies w/ anything that myself or others that helped me look at it could find.

I think the problem is you are misunderstanding what shadowstrike damage is. It's damage that can hit for either physical or shadow damage, depending on what resistance is lower. If you have a lot of armor, it will hit for shadow. If your shadow res is high but your armor is low it will hit for physical damage. It is the same mechanic like frostfire, tooltip quote: "Launches a bolt of frostfire at the enemy, causing 722 to 838 Frostfire damage, slowing movement speed by 40% and causing an additional 90 Frostfire damage over 9 sec. This spell will be checked against the lower of the target's Frost and Fire resists."

No, I'm not misunderstanding. This is why I used the reference of being nearly Shadow resist capped and still taking the dmg as magical. What is confusing about what I am saying?

If you were armor capped, you would take magical dmg due to having so much physical resist. < AMS would absorb SR.
If you were resist capped, you would take physical dmg due to having so much shadow resist. < AMS would do nothing.

Shadowprot = 130 shadow resist
Sind Trinket (heroic) = 268 all resists

Total 398 shadow resist.

It is my understanding that resist cap for a lvl 83 mob is 415 (lvl*5). So, with being over the 'cap' and taking 50 shadowstrikes (all of which are absorbed by AMS) how do you viably say it can come across as physical dmg? The amount of times AMS has not worked have been so minimal that I don't think/see that there are any consistencies.

I know people don't want to blame 'lag' and the games actual processing of abilities and dmg intake/output, but in all honesty, that is what I think it comes down to. Same thing holds true for a Holy Light hitting you for 28k overheal 1.2 seconds after you take a 39k melee. You don't see people trying to work into reasons why the holy light wasn't calculated properly. The game isn't perfect.

It's because of your armor. You mentioned earlier something about 40k armor, which amounts to around 70% reduction (70.6 if we want to be precise). Then let's see what your shadow resistance actually amounts to. Since Shadow Protection and MotW doesn't stack that's 130 + 268 from your trinket. 398 resistance, rounded down to 340 with the current WotLK resistance mechanics, which gives an average of 30% reduction. Your 70% reduction from armor is worth a whole lot more than the measly 30% (10-50%) you get from the shadow resistance you have.

Yeah, you are right w/ that. Mark + Sprot don't stack. Not sure why I was thinking they did. Either way, it doesn't change the results.

Following your logic, how do you explain the fact I have had nearly the same amount of armor (within 2k-ish) the entire time I have been doing the fight and still on a handful of times (single digits out of probably over 500+ soul reaper's) I have had AMS not work? As far as I know, LK doesn't have any armor reduction abilities in his spell listing so I would be interested in seeing what you would attribute that to. With your math you would have to drop to like 30k ish armor (napkin math) or less for it to come across as physical. No tank will be able to even tank him w/ that little amount of AV.

I'm telling you, there is zero consistency in the theory you can make SR come across as physical dmg and have AMS fail.

Here is every SR that I took while using AMS last week during 5 pulls. Zero are supporting any type of physical dmg possibility:


[20:53:53.750] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[20:53:53.811] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 17625 (A: 12262, R: 40060)
[20:53:53.811] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[20:53:57.495] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[20:53:57.495] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[20:53:58.822] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 8032 (A: 44191)
[20:53:58.822] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[20:53:59.451] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[20:54:01.444] Riggnaros gains 384 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[20:54:02.462] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[20:55:01.110] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[20:55:01.293] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 37395 (R: 31745)
[20:55:01.293] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[20:55:04.691] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[20:55:04.691] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[20:55:05.229] Riggnaros gains 341 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[20:55:06.165] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 7990 (A: 44234)
[20:55:06.165] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[20:55:06.872] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[20:55:08.834] Riggnaros gains 340 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[20:55:09.727] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades
[20:55:09.959] Riggnaros gains 352 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell


[20:56:37.400] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[20:56:37.456] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 14482 (A: 18557, R: 16238)
[20:56:37.456] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[20:56:41.268] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[20:56:41.268] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[20:56:42.448] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 3739 (A: 21185)
[20:56:42.448] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[20:56:43.041] Riggnaros gains 236 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[20:56:45.822] Riggnaros gains 99 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[20:56:46.254] Riggnaros gains 290 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[20:56:46.322] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[20:59:17.452] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[20:59:17.518] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 13820 (A: 13375, R: 45712)
[20:59:17.518] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[20:59:21.071] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[20:59:21.071] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[20:59:22.539] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 13275 (A: 49193)
[20:59:22.539] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[20:59:23.109] Riggnaros gains 503 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[20:59:26.115] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[21:01:01.777] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:01:01.817] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 43011 (R: 32131)
[21:01:01.817] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:01:06.154] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:01:06.154] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:01:06.823] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 12611 (A: 46734)
[21:01:06.823] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[21:01:07.410] Riggnaros gains 478 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:01:11.189] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[21:14:41.166] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:14:41.305] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 17010 (A: 13223, R: 40525)
[21:14:41.305] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:14:44.778] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:14:44.778] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:14:46.232] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros Absorb (52223)
[21:14:46.232] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[21:14:46.815] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:14:49.753] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[21:15:42.151] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:15:42.262] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 34642 (A: 1890, R: 32645)
[21:15:42.262] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:15:46.852] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:15:46.852] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:15:47.227] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros Absorb (52224)
[21:15:47.227] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[21:15:47.780] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:15:49.009] Riggnaros gains 214 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:15:50.990] Riggnaros gains 377 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:15:51.916] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[21:34:02.264] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:34:02.342] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 21909 (A: 11403, R: 29767)
[21:34:02.342] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:34:06.040] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:34:06.040] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:34:07.326] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 11900 (A: 40323)
[21:34:07.326] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[21:34:07.967] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:34:09.534] Riggnaros gains 306 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:34:10.995] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[21:35:02.864] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:35:02.968] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 25170 (A: 13987, R: 22494)
[21:35:02.968] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:35:06.025] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:35:06.025] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:35:07.738] Riggnaros gains 316 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:35:07.911] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros Absorb (52224)
[21:35:07.911] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[21:35:08.533] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:35:10.109] Riggnaros gains 331 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:35:11.070] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades


[21:36:03.415] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:36:03.498] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 27506 (A: 4853, R: 38169)
[21:36:03.498] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:36:06.628] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:36:06.628] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:36:07.439] Riggnaros gains 65 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:36:08.456] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 13056 (A: 39167)
[21:36:08.456] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[21:36:09.061] Riggnaros gains 334 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:36:09.061] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:36:11.658] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades
[21:36:11.872] Riggnaros gains 347 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell


[21:38:36.701] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:38:36.701] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 74779 (O: 2857337, A: 517432, R: 966366) < ROFL enrage


[21:47:54.171] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:47:54.342] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros Absorb (31365)
[21:47:54.342] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:47:57.540] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:47:57.540] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:47:59.279] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros Absorb (52223)
[21:47:59.279] Riggnaros's Soul Reaper fades
[21:47:59.864] Riggnaros gains 495 runic power from Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell
[21:48:02.517] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades

Personally I used to tank him with around 30k armor when I was still in mainly TotC gear (as tanking is my offspec it took a while to get some ICC gear), which was around the time I got the logs I posted above when AMS clearly wasn't absorbing anything. Keep in mind this was 10 man and I don't believe we had a lot of specific armor debuffs other than devotion aura (most likely there was no demo roar equivalent up either, though I'm not sure that matters with what type of damage it would hit for), which can explain why it would hit for physical damage instead.

I dunno, like I said - I have been around 40k or so armor the entire time we've been doing the fight (early March). The problem w/ the logs (atleast for me) the few times that AMS did fail was that AMS was fading prematurely. Example:

[21:53:14.846] The Lich King casts Soul Reaper on Riggnaros
[21:53:14.846] Riggnaros Death Strike Riggnaros +0 (O: 10507)
[21:53:14.919] Riggnaros afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[21:53:15.247] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 25764 (A: 3770, R: 8709)
[21:53:16.064] Riggnaros gains Anti-Magic Shell from Riggnaros
[21:53:16.064] Riggnaros casts Anti-Magic Shell
[21:53:19.500] Riggnaros's Anti-Magic Shell fades
[21:53:19.900] The Lich King Soul Reaper Riggnaros 45513 (A: 8031)

I just don't see that being anything armor value related. I am still leaning towards being more of a bug or latency myself, but anyone is entitled to their own opinion I guess. Once I started waiting until later to cast AMS it has yet to be an issue.

Looking at it from a pure opposition standpoint, I guess the 'hybrid' dmg from the SR could have been the cause for the AMS to be consumed yet since the dmg is taken as physical it absorbed nothing. Again though, I am not changing anything in my gear setup really. So unless this 'magic number' of armor that you need to have is a lot closer to 40k than 30k, I don't know what to conclude. It's possible Devo/Stoneskin/Demo/etc fell off which would make the physical dmg portion trump the magical, but as you can see from earlier, I have had AMS still work with no AP reduction present on LK.

Here is the link to a 10's group a few months back where I had AMS fail (keep in mind this was before I was using the cd rotation I posted a bit up the page):

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Feel free to browse around and possibly find something that I missed. I really would like to have some soft of conclusive verdict on the matter since chalking things up to 'rng / bugs / latency' is somewhat of a cheap way out lol, but its the only thing I have to even come close to justifying what I have seen/experienced thus far ><.

I think there is still enough evidence to indicate the second hit of Soul Reaper can always be absorbed by AMS. The odd early fades seems more likely to be a bug or lag or some other fluke than anything else. While mixed-school damage will determine the damage based on whichever resist is least favorable to the target, the damage type still is a hybrid, and still a candidate to be absorbed. Basically what I am suggesting is the game first figures out the unmitigated damage, then checks all possible mitigations (physical school via armor, Inspiration, etc; then magic via resists), then picks based on whichever is higher, and inflicts the mixed-school damage (combat logs show the type of damage doesn't "pick" -- it is always hybrid, not flipflopping to either pure physical or pure shadow). Since this damage infliction is a mixed type, of which one is magic, it can be absorbed.

AMS is an odd absorb mechanic. First, it absorbs 75%, not 100%, of magic damage. This means some will always leak through, but perhaps be absorbed by other effects like PW:S, DA, and PotAK (which I would guess account for the full 50k+ absorbs in some of the log snippets above). It also is limited to 50% of your total health (which isn't an issue if VB is up). I think the bottom line on AMS is that it just has some odd interactions that can lead to occasionally buggy behavior. We can't discount the possibility of how it works server-side having changed over time as well.

Any DK tanking HLK at this point will have 40k+ armor; that is a pretty easy number to hit. Their resists will be much lower, depending on if they have the trinket or not (though by the current mechanics of resists, having ~400 resist means you can sometimes resist up to 60-70% of an attack, but lower on average). Either way, even if resist/armor did play into this balance, generally the magic damage would surpass the physical.

You can view the full log (search for actor Riggnaros) from this link, which lets you view every entry around the disappearing AMS without hitting the event limit from searching from the beginning of the fight: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Nothing happens that indicates it should have gone away -- no other magic, nothing. AMS just disappears (I assume there isn't a /cancelaura involved, of course, though that is what it would seem like... it just goes away for no reason, grants no Runic Power). My money is still on lag and timing issues for this kind of snippet. AMS used as Rigg describes here should be completely safe and reliable.

It's really very simple. Magical resistance is a bit of a tricky bugger, but the mechanics have been relatively well nailed down (as posted here on EJ, in fact). The amount resisted is randomized but happens in discrete intervals; thus it is possible when you have trinket procs etc. up for your shadow resistance reduction to be higher than your armor reduction. It is however fairly unlikely, given typical armor values and the likelihood of getting a max value resistance absorb.

Capstone, if this is really the case, it should also be possible to figure out how much damage the physical part should deal, right? If it's 70K unmitigated, 70.6% reduction leaves you with 20580 damage. If it's physical damage, it shouldn't do more than this, right (assuming 25-man heroic - less, otherwise). But this is not the case.

Well, I don't know how much feedback is even being desired on Halion HM, but I just wanted to toss in an update in the event a DK tank is looking for info. There are a couple of things that would be nice to know going in to the hardmode encounter that I will go over below. I will go over Spec / Itemization / CD usage (as I did in the LKhm post above).

First off, a very important factor to know off the bat: The boss can parry haste (gg). This turns into more of a problem downstairs when you have so many people moving around along w/ the boss being rotated while the beams are out. Her dmg output isn't that bad (lower than LKhm) but her ability to parry haste makes it a bit more of a factor. A funny exert below is from one of the many times we had it happen. Anyways, moving on.



Spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pretty standard blood spec works w/ a few minor adjustments that can be left up to the player (1-2 pts + glyphs). The point I have in DRW isn't 'needed' but it doesn't hurt either (afaik it doesn't cause parries, but I could be wrong). There are other choices for the 1 pt, but nothing else really stands out. MoB is not an option (explained below) and Spell Deflection is a horrible choice of 3 pts due to its low proc rate.

I REALLY recommend picking up 4/4 Imp Rune Tap for this fight because it is very very helpful. Also, in the above spec I listed using the glyph of RT. For me, VB and RS glyphs are a staple and the 3rd slot I change in and out quite a bit depending on the fight. For this fight I would go wtih VB/ RS/RT due to not needing Taunt glyph or (depending on your threat) DS glyph.

DO NOT use Mark of Blood. For some reason (I posted this when it was a problem during Sind progression: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [bug] Sindragosa bugs out w/ DK tank? ) anytime you put MoB on any dragon boss it causes them to spazz out and just target ppl all around the raid (THUS HELPING PARRY HASTE, GG) and risking cleave/breath resulting in a wipe.


Itemization:

The only real item slots that are debatable are which offset item to use while keeping 4pc (pants or helm) and with which trinkets. I ended up going with the same setup I listed above in the LK post, but with a couple of changes. Mainly using [Sigil of the Bone Gryphon]. After going w/ the ilvl245 sigil all of our beginning pulls I swapped to this to see what kind of uptime it would produce and was pretty happy w/ the results. You can see the bottom green line and its uptime below in the picture. Other than that, I only changed around CSK for Organ, but ended up sticking w/ CSK due to having an on use effect that helped when things really got dicey. I also toyed w/ the idea of dropping [Ashen Band of Endless Courage] since the proc is so low at times (2 procs in an 7:08 fight), but ended up keeping it on.




CD Usage:

DK tanks shine so good on fights like this (Dargon fights like Sarth / Sind / Halion / etc) because of their tailored 'short saves'. I ended up tanking the 'bottom' realm due to being able to have a CD up for nearly each breath. It made it tons easier because when healers were moving for beams I was able to negate most of the breaths with AMS / IBF / 4pc+VB / Sind Trink, thus saving a lot of spike dmg while cutters are out.

Breaths come on about a 15 second interval and Cutters at 30secs. This means you will be taking on 1 breath during during cutters (use cd) and then 1 breath while the raid is stationary (only use a cd if you are going into the breath low). As you can see in the above pic w/ the sigil uptime, my cd's are staggered pretty well for the most part, but I am sure it could get a bit better. In the event you don't have one up feel free to abuse your priests GS as much as possible. Priority also lies in making sure demo + AF are active on you as much as possible, and keep up blade barrier.

Tip that may save you from dying: Don't rely on raise dead ><. Casting it is near pointless on this fight because your pet will die to either the cleave or the breath instantly. The only time I was able to get off a Death Pact was after channeling Army.

Misc:

On top of the above info there are few of tidbits of knowledge that will also be good to know. Picking the boss up going down from the top is a very critical part if you are tanking downstairs. You have to be the 1st person in the portal and pick him up w/o moving him 1 inch from the middle then spin him 90 degrees to your right or left. This will keep you from having issues w/ positioning while rotating around the room and getting your raid cleaved as they drop down. Pop VB on the pickup while your healers / raid are getting into position to keep from getting gibbed off the bat.



All in all, this fight is far from the demands of LK (15% buff and below), but it's still challenging for the most part. W/o limited attempts, its hard to keep content from being beaten, but hey I'm a fan of being able to test new strats/specs/comps/etc without having to worry about losing pulls. It was also refreshing to raid content that matters w/o the ICC buff. It felt alot more 'pure' and less inflated than our current nights in ICC. Anyways, hope the above info helps anyone looking to test the waters on the Heroic25 Halion encounter. Post or PM me if there is anything you would like to dispute or discuss further.


WoL parse from our kill (downstairs only - listed as 7:08 wipe):

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis