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Old 10/02/09, 8:45 PM   #1876
Arthemis
Banned
 
Human Rogue
 
Khaz Modan
I do not agree that dual wield 2x fast tanking swords is low threat.
I decided to make my off spec the frost DW with the blade dropped in H TOC 5man x2 which i got a month ago. I used the suggested by Satori spec, and i have to say few things about the spec compared to my cookie cutter blood one:

1) Having 28 exp in blood VS 38 exp in DW i get parried the same exact amount. I agree that i ran only a day worth of raiding, no hard modes however Ony25, Voa25, and TOC 10 are good enough to collect some data

2) Lost 1k health (with my gear, your results may vary for the good or the bad) but gained total of 2% extra mitigation + 3% extra avoidance (somewhat this was the result of the needed gear + spec change)

3) Threat is the same as blood if not even better (blood performs worse in my 10man raids because of lack of buffs, DW did amazing job in both 10 and 25man), in fact Rime and Killing Machine procced one after another non stop, i had to figure a way to use them up asap even....

Now, i cannot provide any recount data or anything, BUT the spec is good given you have enough expertise and everyone should try it, it is certainly much more fun than the blood, and its not limited to Heroics but rather to certain raid encounters.

If i have any problems with the DW its rather the spec, somewhat the rune generation is just not enough for RS and FS (especially when you have killing spree up)

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Old 10/02/09, 9:28 PM   #1877
Illu
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
I think one of the high points will be/is that rime procs from both hands when you Obliterate (at least as of today), so you can get more HB's in. Which is a pretty awesome.

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Old 10/03/09, 3:50 AM   #1878
Lithilara
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Barthilas
Should hit cap be prioritised over all other stats like stam and mitigation? I've tried using Pyrite Infuser to help me hit 7%, replacing a tank trinket in the process but my threat doesn't seem to have improved by alot. Without Pyrite Infuser, I'd only have 4% hit. Anyone have any suggestions?

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Old 10/03/09, 10:36 AM   #1879
Farthen
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
The Forgotten Coast
Originally Posted by Lithilara View Post
Should hit cap be prioritised over all other stats like stam and mitigation? I've tried using Pyrite Infuser to help me hit 7%, replacing a tank trinket in the process but my threat doesn't seem to have improved by alot. Without Pyrite Infuser, I'd only have 4% hit. Anyone have any suggestions?
I've never found hit to be a priority to be honest. I usually sit at 2% hit, unless you really need the hit cap for a threat sensitive fight, then go for it. But if your having to substitute a tanking trinket with a dps trinket, i don't think your tanking end game content; therefore, you should not need hit cap.

Last edited by Farthen : 10/03/09 at 12:57 PM.

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Old 10/03/09, 2:33 PM   #1880
GravityDK
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Death Knight
 
Dath'Remar
Hit is pretty good, but strength is generally better.

The EP values for threat stats based on Ulduar-level gear for tanks . Sorry I didn't sort them in order of priority.

Blood
EP:50 | AttackPower | 1
EP:50 | Strength | 2.27
EP:50 | Agility | 1
EP:50 | CritRating | 1.55
EP:50 | HasteRating | 1.09
EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 1.73
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating | 2.27
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating After Dodge Cap | 0.91
EP:50 | BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 1.91
EP:50 | SpellHitRating | 0.35

Unholy (no reaping)
EP:50 | AttackPower | 1
EP:50 | Strength | 2.16
EP:50 | Agility | 0.8
EP:50 | CritRating | 1.28
EP:50 | HasteRating | 1.04
EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 0.8
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating | 1.68
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating After Dodge Cap | 0.72
EP:50 | BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 2
EP:50 | SpellHitRating | 0.62

Frost
EP:50 | AttackPower | 1
EP:50 | Strength | 2.17
EP:50 | Agility | 0.78
EP:50 | CritRating | 1.3
EP:50 | HasteRating | 0.61
EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 1.22
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating | 2.61
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating After Dodge Cap | 1.22
EP:50 | BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 2
EP:50 | SpellHitRating | 0.67

This is from the sims I've been doing, for which you can download my xml files here.
Thoe "EP50" prefix can be ignored, it's just something the sim uses.

For rotations in the sim:
I have been using PS IT SS BS BS DC DC, but just did a quick test of only having one DC in the sim and got slightly more threat (~0.5% to 1.4% depending on spec). This is because the sim does not yet know to save 20 RP for RS at all times, so the 2x DC could leave you starved. Because it's not a material difference in the sims, I won't redo all the figures I've given in this post, but will use a single DC in future work, plus out of principle I'll put the IT first since that's more realistic to how tanks play.

Last edited by GravityDK : 10/03/09 at 3:25 PM.

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Old 10/03/09, 3:52 PM   #1881
Lithilara
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by GravityDK View Post
Hit is pretty good, but strength is generally better.

The EP values for threat stats based on Ulduar-level gear for tanks . Sorry I didn't sort them in order of priority.

Blood
EP:50 | AttackPower | 1
EP:50 | Strength | 2.27
EP:50 | Agility | 1
EP:50 | CritRating | 1.55
EP:50 | HasteRating | 1.09
EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 1.73
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating | 2.27
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating After Dodge Cap | 0.91
EP:50 | BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 1.91
EP:50 | SpellHitRating | 0.35

Unholy (no reaping)
EP:50 | AttackPower | 1
EP:50 | Strength | 2.16
EP:50 | Agility | 0.8
EP:50 | CritRating | 1.28
EP:50 | HasteRating | 1.04
EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 0.8
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating | 1.68
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating After Dodge Cap | 0.72
EP:50 | BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 2
EP:50 | SpellHitRating | 0.62

Frost
EP:50 | AttackPower | 1
EP:50 | Strength | 2.17
EP:50 | Agility | 0.78
EP:50 | CritRating | 1.3
EP:50 | HasteRating | 0.61
EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 1.22
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating | 2.61
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating After Dodge Cap | 1.22
EP:50 | BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 2
EP:50 | SpellHitRating | 0.67

This is from the sims I've been doing, for which you can download my xml files here.
Thoe "EP50" prefix can be ignored, it's just something the sim uses.

For rotations in the sim:
I have been using PS IT SS BS BS DC DC, but just did a quick test of only having one DC in the sim and got slightly more threat (~0.5% to 1.4% depending on spec). This is because the sim does not yet know to save 20 RP for RS at all times, so the 2x DC could leave you starved. Because it's not a material difference in the sims, I won't redo all the figures I've given in this post, but will use a single DC in future work, plus out of principle I'll put the IT first since that's more realistic to how tanks play.
Hey, thanks for posting it. However, is it possible to include a parry rating inside there?
This is because when I last checked, parry resets swing timer, allowing for more tps.
Maybe the other mitigation skills also, for more RS procs. Just an idea to see if it's possible.
Also, am I right to say expertise cap for dodge is 28? Thanks!

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Old 10/03/09, 4:12 PM   #1882
GravityDK
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Death Knight
 
Dath'Remar
You do not need to quote my entire post, it looks ugly.

Parry rating's threat gain from haste is fairly tiny, but I don't have any way to automatically calculate it though. You get more from the extra rune strike chance from avoidance than from the parry-haste you gain, which is something you can can deduce from an earlier post I did which included avoidance levels of 45/50/55/56% in the excel file.

Expertise is in the FAQ.

Last edited by GravityDK : 10/03/09 at 4:21 PM.

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Old 10/03/09, 9:09 PM   #1883
bluedragon
Glass Joe
 
bluedragon's Avatar
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by GravityDK View Post
If someone would provide me their stats for an i245+ geared tank I'll use them next time. I used 1056 str, 214 agi, 16865 armour, 160 bonus AP, 270 hit, 459 crit, 223 expertise.
I have 1x 226, 1x 239, 11x 245, and 3x 258 - so it should be close to what you're looking for. Unbuffed & no presence stats:
STR 1362
AGI 141
Armor 19847
AP 249.6
Hit 190 (I normally use hit food)
Crit 90
Expertise 197

I assume agi and crit are a lot different because I have an i245 weapon without agi, just because no one else wanted it.
Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

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Old 10/04/09, 4:44 AM   #1884
Lithilara
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by GravityDK View Post
Parry rating's threat gain from haste is fairly tiny, but I don't have any way to automatically calculate it though. You get more from the extra rune strike chance from avoidance than from the parry-haste you gain, which is something you can can deduce from an earlier post I did which included avoidance levels of 45/50/55/56% in the excel file.
Thanks for posting it but is it possible for the sim to co-relate the EP values of stam, parry and dodge together for a survivability sheet?
I've tried looking on the forums and tried Kahorie's Simulator but the Sim only does threat modules. Is there a defense/survivability module that is floating around?
I've also tried Rawr but the DK module seems abit buggy.
Thanks again!

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Old 10/04/09, 4:47 AM   #1885
keebz
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Whisperwind
I see in the original post that the Frost spec has 1 point in Hungering Cold as opposed to Deathchill. Hungering cold is very situational in its use whereas Deathchill would be very helpful in getting snap aggro. I understand Hungering Cold infects your targets with Frost Fever, but then again, if you are glyphed for Howling Blast (even if you are not), the Deathchill + Howling Blast (or Frost Strike) is practically a KM proc on demand. Very worthwhile to change as people may not read into the importance of Deathchill and go with Hungering Cold, which they will very rarely use.

I use Hungering Cold for fights like Faction Champs where I run in and provide the opener by freezing every champion. Then the other person who would originally open (maybe a warrior with aoe fear) takes over. Other than situations like those, Deathchill is great -> think opening with Deathchill/HB on Gormok to give your DPS less downtime in the beginning.

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Old 10/04/09, 6:30 AM   #1886
GravityDK
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Death Knight
 
Dath'Remar
Originally Posted by Lithilara View Post
Thanks for posting it but is it possible for the sim to co-relate the EP values of stam, parry and dodge together for a survivability sheet?
No, and I don't think that's a direction they're likely to take the sim. It was firstly for DPSers and we're grateful for the tank module provided; better to ask in the correct thread though.

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Old 10/04/09, 8:19 AM   #1887
athinker
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Magtheridon (EU)
Hungering Cold - concerning keebz' reply - is lately quite effective in Faction Champions if a DK tank has the dedicated job to waste the time of an NPC DPS. You did mention the encounter but only as a starter. Some of the melee NPCs there are quite ..easy, e.g. the Shaman melee DPS, but the Rogue for instance that may jump off for about 10-20% of the time, the warrior that is critical to be kept controlled because of its whirling, or the Paladin that may keep its tank CCed for at least 2 seconds, may make HC a savior since it's yet another way to keep the NPC off of the group for 10 seconds every 1 minute while it also gives the time for taunt or snare immunity to go off.

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Old 10/04/09, 2:31 PM   #1888
Sataniss
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Arthas
has any thought gone into the 4 pc bonus for the T9 set and it's worth??? it's been well shown in the last couple pages of this thread that unholy is a decent tanking build now...without doing any math i would think that that the 4 pc bonus benefits bone shield the most given a certain level of avoidance...would it be worth changing from blood in favor of unholy once you hit that 4 pc bonus???

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Old 10/04/09, 5:41 PM   #1889
Xequecal
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Khadgar
The common assertion that two fast tank weapons do significantly less damage with strikes is a myth. Remember that tank DKs have very high relative AP due to bladed armor, and DW scales better with AP than 2H does.

One-handers are AP normalized to 2.5 speed while two-handers are AP normalized to 3.3 speed. With 5000 AP, the base damage of Obliterate (before talents, glyphs, armor) on a 3.6 speed 245 two-handed weapon is (255.6 * 3.6) + (5000 / 14 * 3.3) = 2098.5. The base damage of DW Obliterate (no glyphs, no armor, only talents are ToT and NoCS) with two 1.6 speed 245 weapons is (191.7 * 1.6) + (5000 / 14 * 2.5) + 0.65((191.7 * 1.6) + (5000 / 14 * 2.5)) = 1992.45. That's all of 5% less. If you have 6000 AP, the DW Obliterate actually does more damage than the 2H Obliterate.

Now, I just used Obliterate as an example, but all strikes are calculated the same way. They just get a damage multiplier at the end. Blood Strike does 50% damage, Frost Strike does 55% damage, etc. Because of this, the damage difference between any 2H strike and DW strike with 5000 AP is still going to be 5%. Since talents and glyphs mostly just add %damage modifiers and %crit, they're not going to affect that 5% difference. AFAIK, every talent that does affect 2H and DW unequally favors DW.

When you consider all the other advantages of DW, such as higher white damage, lots more RP generation from Scent of Blood, double Rime procs, etc., I would be very surprised if DWing 1.6 weapons didn't beat a 3.6 2H in threat. You only have to overcome a 5% damage difference from strikes only!

The main issue with DW tanking right now are that WotN + VB are generally better tanking talents than UBA + Frigid Dreadplate. But if you have the right gear for DW, I'd suggest DW all the way. FYI: The procs on Gleaming QS and Burnished QS stack. This is incredible for tanking if you can get them both to drop.

Last edited by Xequecal : 10/04/09 at 6:08 PM.

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Old 10/04/09, 6:31 PM   #1890
Illu
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Just wanted to report my findings tanking TotC10 heroic as Unholy and getting Tribute to Mad Skill done, too! I actually felt more comfortable than I did Blood on Jaraxxus (I usually Mt him), where the spec definitely shines. Gormok was basically a wash - I took a bit less damage with Bs up, more without, but Blood's Death Striking makes up for Bs here in my opinion. But this is fairly expected.. It's also a great tree for Acidmaw.

But what I really wanted to touch on was Anub. I honestly have no threat problems with Unholy anymore (I'm not sure why, maybe BCB/new epidemicless/reapingless rotation?) and certainly had no great problems tanking him. My healer tells me I actually seemed to take less damage than usual, and I purposefully didn't go into detail about my spec swap for this reason so they'd have an unbiased mind. I'm seriously considering 2 Night of the dead points though. Army channeling is just so awesome in times like Anub p3.

All in all I'm really satisfied with the performance. I'm going to look over the spec though, I only got the idea to try it because we needed the magic debuff, and it was done in 2 minutes. :p

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