Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking - Page 127

SageoftheTimes · 10/04/09, 7:51 PM

I've got a question about Glyphs. Since I'm still gearing up for ToCr, I still deal with AoE tanking in heroics, as well as in VoA. I've found Glyph of Disease to be a pretty useful glyph (also considering Blood Strike's low damage, since I 2-H tank) for refreshing Diseases, and was wondering if anyone has experimented with it. The Frost Strike Glyph is an obvious choice, but I'm wondering what people feel about Glyph of Unbreakable Armour vs. Glyph of Obliterate. While Oblit. is obviously a great threat move, I'm wondering if the 20% added by Glyph of UA is additive or multiplicative (could be extremely awesome if it is). Thank you for whatever help you can give. I also apologize if this is more of a simple question, but I think it does have some merit, due to the lack of updates in the original post.

keebz · 10/05/09, 2:48 AM

I recently switched from Frost to Blood for tanking as my offspec (main is dps). When I do tank 25 man raids, I am usually OT (ToC25/Uld25), and MT 10 man's. I am wondering about WotN and its utility. There seems to be some confusion as to how it operates and if it is worth taking. Personally, as of right now, it is not in my spec as I chose to spend 4 points in a fully-talented Rune Tap which I can use to heal myself for ~13k. This, in my opinion, would be better than WotN which would only reduce an incoming attack by maybe 2k-4k, and then leave me stranded in the < 35% health zone for a while before I am healed up again. In that short opening (keeping the 15 second WotN cooldown in mind), I can easily be hit and die (considering I seem to take way more hits than when I was Frost). Not to mention, Rune Tap is on a 30 second cooldown. I am considering possibly dropping Mark of Blood as I don't think I will be able to fit into my rotations, and placing that point in perhaps Necrosis to make it 2/5. I just want to maximize my AoE threat since I am, afterall, an OT for the big, 25 man raids.

The absence of a snap aggro tool, like Deathchill/KM + HB in Frost, for Blood AoE or even Single Target is scary.

Blood talents: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Previous (might revert since this is probably best for an OT) Frost talents: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...HPAy,YMa,10505

Originally Posted by SageoftheTimes

I've got a question about Glyphs. Since I'm still gearing up for ToCr, I still deal with AoE tanking in heroics, as well as in VoA. I've found Glyph of Disease to be a pretty useful glyph (also considering Blood Strike's low damage, since I 2-H tank) for refreshing Diseases, and was wondering if anyone has experimented with it. The Frost Strike Glyph is an obvious choice, but I'm wondering what people feel about Glyph of Unbreakable Armour vs. Glyph of Obliterate. While Oblit. is obviously a great threat move, I'm wondering if the 20% added by Glyph of UA is additive or multiplicative (could be extremely awesome if it is). Thank you for whatever help you can give. I also apologize if this is more of a simple question, but I think it does have some merit, due to the lack of updates in the original post.

If you are a Frost tank and are worried about AoE threat, my suggestion for you is the Glyph of Howling Blast. You would be using only HB to apply Frost Fever (do not worry about blood plague, you can throw PS in after HB on bosses for extra threat, but shouldn't need it) and then BB, or DnD if necessary. Glyph of HB would replace Glyph of Runestrike in this scenario. This is in regard to your Glyph of Disease question.

Sogron · 10/05/09, 4:16 AM

GravityDK,
3123 from bluedragon's 19849 armor is from neck/ring/trinket/back enchant and thus isn't affected by frost presence. Wanted to warn you just in case the sim added FP's 60% armor to all the armor u type in.

zagor · 10/05/09, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by keebz

I am wondering about WotN and its utility. There seems to be some confusion as to how it operates and if it is worth taking. Personally, as of right now, it is not in my spec as I chose to spend 4 points in a fully-talented Rune Tap which I can use to heal myself for ~13k. This, in my opinion, would be better than WotN which would only reduce an incoming attack by maybe 2k-4k, and then leave me stranded in the < 35% health zone for a while before I am healed up again.

Try looking at it differently. If you're at lower health and get hit hard, WotN could save your life. A tank's job is not to die and WotN helps with that. It doesn't matter that it doesn't help a lot or frequently. Rune Tap doesn't help you survive at all. If you get in a situation where you depend on Rune Tap to survive, then somebody is doing something wrong.
Mark of Blood is pretty useless too, so that's a free point.

Schintus · 10/05/09, 5:18 AM

Originally Posted by Arthemis

3) Threat is the same as blood if not even better (blood performs worse in my 10man raids because of lack of buffs, DW did amazing job in both 10 and 25man), in fact Rime and Killing Machine procced one after another non stop, i had to figure a way to use them up asap even....

I use Power Auras Classic for that task. Added the spells/buffs I get to Power auras and an icon shows on my screen when they are available

Illu · 10/05/09, 7:22 AM

Originally Posted by zagor

Try looking at it differently. If you're at lower health and get hit hard, WotN could save your life. A tank's job is not to die and WotN helps with that. It doesn't matter that it doesn't help a lot or frequently. Rune Tap doesn't help you survive at all. If you get in a situation where you depend on Rune Tap to survive, then somebody is doing something wrong.
Mark of Blood is pretty useless too, so that's a free point.

I just don't agree with the dismissal of Rune Tap here, since after all you could use the same "doing it wrong" argument for WotN, kind of. While I typically skip it (and I don't skip WotN) for a threat talent, things like timing death strikes and Rune taps can make a significant difference at times to make sure you keep standing, particularly on bosses with predictable instant strikes/spells. For instance on Gormok, Algalon explosions and Anub'arak, though it's true I usually find DS sufficient. But there are definitely times where I wish I had points for Rune tap.

I think those freeish 2-3 talent points you have could easily go into that talent if you're confident about threat, but it's all up to preference

Keldin · 10/05/09, 8:48 AM

Unbreakable Armor change

I know that it was discussed a few pages back, but I can't really decide if it's a nerf or decent change. UA absorbing damage seemed to work a bit better. Although after the recent change I haven't tanked and haven't gotten the chance to check it out on my DK.

One point brought up was, that with the UA glyph you can hit/get close to the armor cap. What I am concerned about is how good UA+Glyph is for a fresh level 80 or for a slightly lower geared DK tank? Keep or dump the talent until I am slightly better geared?

PS - Just a side note here. My DK is still being levelled so lets not look him up.

• frmorrison · 10/05/09, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by zagor

Try looking at it differently. If you're at lower health and get hit hard, WotN could save your life. A tank's job is not to die and WotN helps with that. It doesn't matter that it doesn't help a lot or frequently. Rune Tap doesn't help you survive at all. If you get in a situation where you depend on Rune Tap to survive, then somebody is doing something wrong.
Mark of Blood is pretty useless too, so that's a free point.

Rune Tap can be useful if you dip low and remember to use it, even a 6k heal can be the difference between living and dying sometimes. However, it is situational and requires health awareness, but I wouldn't tank without Rune Tap nor WotN (passive damage prevention abilities are awesome, even if you rarely need it). Mark of blood can be useful, but it is so hard to use properly that most tanks should skip it.

Glyph of UA is very useful until you stack enough armor that you would go past the 75% cap. This version is better than the old -damage UA (at least for tanking).

Qaenyin · 10/05/09, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Rune Tap can be useful if you dip low and remember to use it, even a 6k heal can be the difference between living and dying sometimes. However, it is situational and requires health awareness, but I wouldn't tank without Rune Tap nor WotN (passive damage prevention abilities are awesome, even if you rarely need it). Mark of blood can be useful, but it is so hard to use properly that most tanks should skip it.

Glyph of UA is very useful until you stack enough armor that you would go past the 75% cap. This version is better than the old -damage UA (at least for tanking).

Another rather nice thing about Mark of Blood(and honestly the only thing I really used it for in raids) is if I'm not mistaken it will function on aoe effects.

This is rather useful in situations where bosses emit a continual low damage aoe effect, for example Anub'arak burn phase locust swarm, or a situation where a boss does a max health % effect(XT tympanic tantrum for example, malygos vortex, things of that sort) where it can take a bit of strain off the urgency of healers needing to heal the _entire_ raid at the same time.

This combined with a well timed Glyphed Rune Tap can make a difference, especially on 10 mans where this means basically an 8% heal for the entire raid and another 10% for your party. Less useful on 25 mans because it burns through the charges so rapidly(if an aoe hits multiple people it eats a MoB charge for every person struck).

keebz · 10/05/09, 3:42 PM

Yes, I do like Rune Tap but I am not currently specced into WotN. Not that this would matter in a raid, but in terms of mechanics, I was tanking H ToC (5man) with this new Blood spec, and AoE threat was not even close to being a problem (which was one of my biggest concerns - coming from Frost, if I could still chain pull mobs and be confident). On phase 3 of the Black Knight, around 50%, 2 dps and our healer died, leaving myself and a warlock at ~50% health. I popped Mark of Blood, and used Death Strikes / Rune Tap when it was up (Vamp Blood was down). To my extreme amazement, I did not even once fall below 50% health. I was very excited, and I know this kind of situation is rare in raids (I am a raider, not a heroic runner...but this was amazing to see), especially with the increased damage of bosses/trash, but it is amazing to see. This is for anyone that is interested in knowing the capabilities of Blood self-healing.

On another note, although Mark of Blood saved me as well as fully-talented (4 points) Rune Tap, I am thinking about removing a point from Mark of Blood, which would make 1/3 WotN. I need 2 more points, and my only option that I can see at this point is transferring 2 points from Rune Tap so Rune Tap would become 2/4 (1+1/3) and WotN 3/3. Is this a bad idea? Threat wasn't an issue...compared to the Frost (with HB glyph) rotation, Blood is VERY (I stress very) organized and smooth. The only problematic times as has been pointed out over and over again is when you are low on health and you need to pop Mark of Blood or a Rune Tap (moreso if Blood Tap is on c/d).

Also noteworthy is the fact that I did not notice any shortage of RP even though my build doesn't include SoB, so those are 3 points for anyone if they want to experiment.

Volrath50 · 10/06/09, 4:29 AM

So, I recently got lucky in an Ony25 pug, rolled a 96, and got the head. Since I rarely DPS, I went for the nifty trinket, and am currently messing around with a high avoidance set. I drop 4k HP but gain around 5% avoidance. Anyway, depending on what rings I have equipped, I can now have up to 567 defense, letting me use Swordshattering as my runeforge, if I want. Would, generally, gaining the extra 1% avoidance be worth giving up 2% HP for?

It doesn't really matter either way, as my guild is largely a casual 10 man guild (no hard modes), so min-maxing isn't really needed, it's just generally a thought that crossed my mind when I saw I could do that, heh.

Sogron · 10/06/09, 5:21 AM

Volrath50,

It's 2% stam, not HP, and another thread already discussed your problem (I think this one did too).

pindle · 10/06/09, 5:40 AM

Originally Posted by keebz

On another note, although Mark of Blood saved me as well as fully-talented (4 points) Rune Tap, I am thinking about removing a point from Mark of Blood, which would make 1/3 WotN. I need 2 more points, and my only option that I can see at this point is transferring 2 points from Rune Tap so Rune Tap would become 2/4 (1+1/3) and WotN 3/3. Is this a bad idea? Threat wasn't an issue...compared to the Frost (with HB glyph) rotation, Blood is VERY (I stress very) organized and smooth. The only problematic times as has been pointed out over and over again is when you are low on health and you need to pop Mark of Blood or a Rune Tap (moreso if Blood Tap is on c/d).

Also noteworthy is the fact that I did not notice any shortage of RP even though my build doesn't include SoB, so those are 3 points for anyone if they want to experiment.

Especially because of the blood rune cost AND the tiny healing it provides I think MoB is useless for a tank, it's a nice utility talent for blood dps specs.

On WotN vs Rune Tap: WotN works better the harder you get hit and the more HP you have. It is clearly more fitting in a raiding environment and is also a passive ability, which is why - imho - the talent points are way better spent than on Rune Tap, which also scales with HP but is less useful for raiding unless your healers suck).
However, if you can spare the points (I like to have good threat as well therefor I can't justify ditching other talents for it), you could take them both. If like me you're going to have to choose, you might arguably be better of with Rune Tap for doing heroics, but WotN as even as soon as 10 man raids come into the picture.

Remember, you still have Death Pact, while not instant available, if you know there's going to be heavy damage you can summon your ghoul and pact when needed for a big heal, leaving you with at least some kind of selfheal if you don't have Rune Tap.

GravityDK · 10/06/09, 9:39 AM

Originally Posted by bluedragon

I have 1x 226, 1x 239, 11x 245, and 3x 258
I assume agi and crit are a lot different because I have an i245 weapon without agi, just because no one else wanted it.

Thanks Blue. I assumed you are using Justicebringer since today your armory is dual-wielding.

I adjusted your armour to 18675 for the sim so x1.6 it still multiplies up correctly, given +armour items. My workings and the xml for Bluedragon here. Thanks Sogron.

One quick test was what threat does an i226 tank generate compared to an i245 in Unholy, according to the sim? So by just switching character files, but same spec/rotation etc:

i226 tank: 2000dps / 4737 tps
i245: 2358 / 5610

I wonder if a dps would only go up by that 18% proportion with similar gear improvement. I suspect they go up by a larger proportion, which must be a contributor to why threat becomes a bigger issue at high iLevel: the dps scaled up their threat more quickly than the tanks, reducing the gap that existed at lower tier levels.

More sims over next week or so, busy IRL.

GravityDK · 10/07/09, 7:46 PM

Relevant changes in latest PTR push. Source.

Area-of-Effect Damage Caps: We’ve redesigned the way area damage is capped when hitting many targets. Instead of a hard cap on total damage done, the game now caps the total damage done at a value equal to the damage the spell would do if it hit 10 targets.

I think this shouldn't effect AOE tank threat, since all DPSers are effected equally.

Taunt Diminishing Returns: We’ve revised the system for diminishing returns on Taunt so that creatures do not become immune to Taunt until after 5 Taunts have landed. The duration of the Taunt effect will be reduced by 35% instead of 50% for each taunt landed. In addition, most creatures in the world will not be affected by Taunt diminishing returns at all. Creatures will only have Taunt diminishing returns if they have been specifically flagged for that behavior based on the design of a given encounter.

Scourge Strike: Redesigned. The base ability now deals 50% weapon damage plus an additional amount as physical damage. However, for each disease the death knight has on the target, the target will take additional shadow damage equal to 25% of the physical damage done.

Unholy Blight: This talent now deals only 10% of Death Coil damage as a damage-over-time effect on the target.

The last two are interesting.
Scourge strike will now scale with physical buffs and debuffs, and if it does 75% for three diseases should hit something like obliterate. Need to know whether it does that or instead acts like 2.5 diseases.

I think the SS change should be a net gain in raid environment due to buffs.