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Old 11/08/09, 8:12 AM   #2041
Darsey
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
The only threat issues I had so far as a tank ware on the first 10 sec of the fight, if I dont get enough rune strikes, then an overeager lock or a hunter that didn't bothered to MD might get smacked, other then that I see no problem on a single target fight.

The icecrown change will make my threat at first even more spiky, but won't hurt the overall threat generated. I think that as long as there are really really tight enrage timers, then it is more of a quality of life issue more then anything else (as it is now too) But I see an issue if some really really tight enrage timers that require full nuke from the 1st or 2nd sec of the fight (any maybe it require the rogues to use tot on each other too so its not an option) then it might prove an issue.

EH wise druids are far ahead of everyone else when we are not talking about magicle damage , and paladins are quite ahead when it comes to magic EH.

EH would be an issue only if the fights would be fights that stress tanks at the EH aspect of the fight, but it seems that bosses gonna hit for less then they do now, so EH will matter less I guess and this difference would matter less because of that

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Old 11/11/09, 4:27 PM   #2042
Soulsbane
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Trollbane
I've actually run into very serious threat issues as my DPS players have been gearing up a little faster while my threat hasn't scaled as well. While my avoidance, mitigation, and health have increased throughout encounter teirs, my threat has not. Each set of nerfs has decreased it. ToC tanking drops are decidedly lacking in Hit rating and the upgrades that give significant Strength or EH increases cost yet more Hit and Expertise. I'm having to deal with boomkins that refuse to spec into their threat redux talent (and have no threat dump), super-spiky fireball mages, rogues that Tricks each other for the damage increase instead of tanks, and our paladins almost never use Hand of Salvation. My threat can float around 5.5k tps, but that just doesn't cut it up against the dps in guild. The gear options are problematic, as every time I'm close to one-handers at current content, someone shows up or whores them, preventing me from wanting to try DW with 170-ish dps weapons.

So I am noticeably concerned with threat. A tank that dies can have healing strats changed. A tank that threat-caps dps is another matter.

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Old 11/11/09, 5:44 PM   #2043
Cesrae
Von Kaiser
 
Cesrae's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Destromath
I found the best way to do decent threat at the start of a fight is to do the following. Depending if you can get trix or not, I would usually hysteria a rogue. If not then I would hysteria myself, pop a dodge trinket, dnd, ps, it, hs, bt, hs, ds, empower rune weapon then unload hs. Theres always chance you get a bad start with miss, dodge or parry, and your dps should be watching out for that. I use this sequence for most fights and the only time I really dont get trix is at the start of hard mode anub since all the trix's are being saved for offtank and adds. You could even throw in Vamp in there before you use death strikes to convert runes.

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Old 11/11/09, 6:20 PM   #2044
Gelsk
Glass Joe
 
Bleh
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Just throwing this out there, but is no one looking at PvP gear?
I tank using a 2 handed 245 pvp weapon (axe cause I'm an orc)
204 stamina+blue+red socket?
The resilience is kinda meh'ed out by the fact that there are no true 2 handed tank weapons in game.

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Old 11/11/09, 8:32 PM   #2045
level12wizard
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
Army of the Dead is a four second channel on the latest PTR build, although it isn't a documented change yet (and likely not 100% final).

I wouldn't call it much of a nerf to the tanking aspect of it, as it would generally be used against a single large hit (big bang, fusion punch, freezing slash, etc), but it's something to consider, as it will probably be seeing more use in 3.3 with the halved cooldown.

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Old 11/11/09, 8:55 PM   #2046
Israfel
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Barthilas
@Gelsk: If you can get an arena rating that high, I'd say go for it if you need the stamina.
--------------------
I've noticed in the OP that the build for the Unholy tank spec is a different one than the current live build. Would this cause Unholy to play worse off than Blood at the moment?

I thought some attention should have been brought to the error.

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Old 11/12/09, 2:59 AM   #2047
Cesrae
Von Kaiser
 
Cesrae's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Destromath
Just throwing this out there, but is no one looking at PvP gear?
I tank using a 2 handed 245 pvp weapon (axe cause I'm an orc)
204 stamina+blue+red socket?
The resilience is kinda meh'ed out by the fact that there are no true 2 handed tank weapons in game.
I currently use the pvp il258 weapon for tanking. Im waiting for hard mode anub weapons to drop. But if you capable of putting together a decent comp every season, 2200 is not hard to get and will hold you over.

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Old 11/12/09, 6:19 AM   #2048
Goldengiff
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Hunter
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Soulsbane View Post
I've actually run into very serious threat issues as my DPS players have been gearing up a little faster while my threat hasn't scaled as well. While my avoidance, mitigation, and health have increased throughout encounter teirs, my threat has not. Each set of nerfs has decreased it. ToC tanking drops are decidedly lacking in Hit rating and the upgrades that give significant Strength or EH increases cost yet more Hit and Expertise. I'm having to deal with boomkins that refuse to spec into their threat redux talent (and have no threat dump), super-spiky fireball mages, rogues that Tricks each other for the damage increase instead of tanks, and our paladins almost never use Hand of Salvation. My threat can float around 5.5k tps, but that just doesn't cut it up against the dps in guild. The gear options are problematic, as every time I'm close to one-handers at current content, someone shows up or whores them, preventing me from wanting to try DW with 170-ish dps weapons.

So I am noticeably concerned with threat. A tank that dies can have healing strats changed. A tank that threat-caps dps is another matter.
1) DK threat is ENORMOUSLY dependent on your weapon. It should honestly be the first priority of any taking DK to get a current ilvl weapon, and it's your responsibility to make sure your guild officers and raid leaders know how important that is.

2) If your raiders are stupid, selfish hogs who can't be bothered to do the correct thing by transferring threat to the MT, especially for a DK on the pull, then they need to be given a lesson in basic math or told they aren't good enough and sat out. We aren't Superman, we're just tanks. We can't hold threat off idiocy~

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Old 11/12/09, 1:57 PM   #2049
Lanlaorn
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Khadgar
2) If your raiders are stupid, selfish hogs who can't be bothered to do the correct thing by transferring threat to the MT, especially for a DK on the pull, then they need to be given a lesson in basic math or told they aren't good enough and sat out. We aren't Superman, we're just tanks. We can't hold threat off idiocy~
While you're correct that your DPS should take steps to meet you halfway, the problem lies in the fact that they wouldn't have to make DPS sacrifices (spec into threat talents, not tricks each other, etc.) for the other tanks.

This topic seems to border on the whining threshold for these forums so I won't really elabroate in this post, but I also feel the OP's point of difficulty in upgrading weapons is valid. DPS weapons are always far more in demand than tanking weapons, particularly two-handers with the popularity of Rets, DKs and the 2-at-a-time use by Fury Warriors. This is a unique meta-game disadvantage for our spec that other tanks wouldn't need to take into accunt.

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Old 11/13/09, 10:26 AM   #2050
Lucke
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Gelsk View Post
Just throwing this out there, but is no one looking at PvP gear?
I tank using a 2 handed 245 pvp weapon (axe cause I'm an orc)
204 stamina+blue+red socket?
The resilience is kinda meh'ed out by the fact that there are no true 2 handed tank weapons in game.
This - I've been doing this and even given the wasted stat of resilience it still generally ends up being a phenominal 2h tanking weapon for us.

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Old 11/13/09, 12:23 PM   #2051
Peinbringer
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Frostwolf (EU)
Resilience is not wasted. A combination of resilience and defense rating can be used to reach the crit immunity cap...

More information is stored at WoWWiki:
Defense - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Last edited by Peinbringer : 11/13/09 at 12:32 PM.

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Old 11/13/09, 1:03 PM   #2052
 frmorrison
Protector
 
frmorrison's Avatar
 
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Peinbringer View Post
Resilience is not wasted. A combination of resilience and defense rating can be used to reach the crit immunity cap...

More information is stored at WoWWiki:
Defense - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
It is barely possible to not reach the Def crit cap (using the proper Runeforge) once you get full 226 gear (which should be common by now), but it does help if you had weaker tanking gear. Note IBF gets stronger as you get more Defense.

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Old 11/13/09, 2:58 PM   #2053
Gozor
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Uldaman
I've been bouncing around from Blood to Unholy and back quite a bit. I really like the DR abilities that Unholy has, but Blood keeps calling me back. I think that this is due to Unholy's limited physical DR abilities.

However, I starting thinking about a perma-ghoul/Huddle build. I haven't seen a build including this before, so I was wondering if anyone in the community has tried this. It would make ghoul sac'ing quite a bit more accessible, too.

Here's the build that I plan on giving a run this weekend... PermaGhoul.

I'd be interested in finding out if anyone has tried this before.

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Old 11/13/09, 3:38 PM   #2054
xylotism
Von Kaiser
 
xylotism's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Gozor View Post
I've been bouncing around from Blood to Unholy and back quite a bit. I really like the DR abilities that Unholy has, but Blood keeps calling me back. I think that this is due to Unholy's limited physical DR abilities.

However, I starting thinking about a perma-ghoul/Huddle build. I haven't seen a build including this before, so I was wondering if anyone in the community has tried this. It would make ghoul sac'ing quite a bit more accessible, too.

Here's the build that I plan on giving a run this weekend... PermaGhoul.

I'd be interested in finding out if anyone has tried this before.
In terms of just the sacrifice, I suppose it's a nice alternative if you really want to spec unholy (I personally find no use in having AMZ for current PvE content, but the magic debuff is handy), but if you're loving Blood's DR anyway, it seems kind of unnecessary.

Death Pact:
40% every 30 seconds, costs 40 RP

Improved Rune Tap:
20% every 20 seconds, costs 1 Blood Rune

Used with Vampiric Blood, gives 37%, allowing 15% over maximum if for some reason you're using it with more than 80% health.
Vampiric Blood is on a minute cooldown, so assuming you use them at the same time when both are up, IRT is an average 28.5%, which should be plenty while tanking... if your healers can't keep you up after you're popping 30% health back every 30s, something is wrong.
EDIT: I was mistaken about the RT glyph... it multiplies the 10%, so your previous 20% from IRT becomes 22%, with VB is averaged to 29.7%. Not much of a difference, but the 10% party heals may be useful.

This is just taking into account the health gain, not the ghoul's damage while it's up (minimal) or the rest of the unholy spec, or the fact that IRT is one extra talent point vs. NotD + Permaghoul

All that said, I'm a frost tank. My healers love the mitigation, my dps love icy talons, and everyone loves not having loose adds. Plus I can respec into HC/Chilblains when I need to slow/freeze. (FC + Anub ToGC).

Last edited by xylotism : 11/13/09 at 3:50 PM.

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Old 11/13/09, 4:13 PM   #2055
Gozor
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Uldaman
The ghoul sac is just an added bonus. I'm more interested in the Huddle, which applies 50% of incoming damage to the ghoul for up to 12 seconds and on a 45-second CD.

In defense of Unholy, I find the magic reduction very useful during the worm encounter, Val'kyr's and with Anub'arek. Furthermore, Bone Shield is just fantastic.

I realize the Huddle DR would be quite limited (two to three hits halved), but at no cost and on a 45-second CD it would be quite nice.

Personal threat and survivability of the ghoul are my primary concerns, though I doubt that the former will be an issue.

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