Yeah, I looked back and I had my warrior in both and I know he keeps the sunders up. In all honesty, on single targets I have never had a problem holding threat from the DPS. The only problem I have ran into is when I taunt off a pally (fights like saurfang) and get threat initially, sometimes I lose that threat back to them as they are still generating more.

I never ever gem for parry as DK's have plenty and it reaches DR much quicker than dodge but I have never thought of gemming armor pen. Right now I have 53.8% dodge + parry. I think once I hit 55% I will seriously think about gemming armor pen/stam in my red sockets. Thanks for the thought.

The other option is when you know a tank swap is coming up, sit on your runes for a few seconds before hand and then immediately unload with everything you have directly after the taunt. I've always found between the taunt equalization and then a full rotation I have no issues jumping well a head of another tank on a taunt swap.

I did some re-testing with latest version of Kahorie's, and found a survival-oriented Blood spec does 6% more tps than a threat-oriented Unholy spec. The gap only widens if you spec into anti-magic with Unholy, or drop WotN to gain more Blood threat.

True enough but after looking at parses of my threat overall, only a small % is from D&D, deathcoil and diseases.
Runestrike alone is usually in the 35-45% range of your total threat with Heartstrike a distant second but still way ahead of everything else.
Faster hitting Bosses like Alg my Runestrike Threat can get in the 55% range easy.

(These are threat values btw, not damage)
Rune Strike 34.4%
Heart Strike 24.2%
Melee 11.6%
Death Strike 6.9%
Death Coil 6.7%
Blood Plague 4.6%
Frost Fever 4.6%
Thorns 1.5%
Retribution Aura 1.4%
Plague Strike 0.7%
Death and Decay 1.1%
Icy Touch 0.5%

I have just found that ARP has more direct value especially when you're tanking without any arp support from rogue's or warriors.

For AOE there really isn't much you can do
D&D>IT>PS>Pest>bloodtap>BB>BB>DS>DS>BB>BB>Pest>D&D
I don't find aoe threat all that bad IF you're given a few globals to get going, but yea if you're looking for snap agro from blood you're not going to find any.
Besides, i have tanked beside a frost DK before and yea they have the initial snap but I will always pass them and have most of the mobs on me once the bloodboils start flying.

I'm not adamant there's a valid reason for it; I was panick-struck when reports came in regarding 3.3 nerfing Frost TPS and handed in my Quel'Serrar as the 1h sword, expecting my TPS to drop to the floor. However, I've never felt threat-starved and lately I've swapped to the 1h sword from Pit of Saron as my MH as I realized the premature TPS scare wasn't a problem.

As a tank, TPS is something you only have to do "enough" of. Like healing, more TPS than your DPS deals is nice but absolutely not necessary, and I value the ability to activate IBF very highly. Remember, using a FS and RS together will leave you exactly 40 RP, wich with some rotten luck may turn to 20/0 with some over-enthusiastic FS spamming, or another RS proc, both of which will mean you can't IBF, which may cause you your life.

I'd suspect a KM-FS would be better TPS on single-target scenaria. I'd prefer to save the KM for an Oblit which may proc a HB (or indeed, a HB if it's not on CD) in any AOE TPS case, however.

There are cases where TPS may be an issue, but only if you don't have MD/TotT, and even then I've never had trouble keeping threat with the orcish racial Bloodfury combined with Empowered Rune Weapon on the pull.

I'm too proud to tell a pally tank to do that... they think they are soo good! Anyway, what would cause more damage from Runic Strike, ArP or Str gemming?

I agree, on my server I have to explain tank swaps to our paladin tanks. They seem to have other elements handed to them, and unless they play alts "Hold back on threat" seems a bewilderment. I found my threat to be incredible for single target if I time it right, so a good way to teach is to just go all out and let them experience the "I can't keep threat."

Also Arp may be better threat than str (its really according to gear) for RS, but STR is so much better a stat in every other way, just treat arp as not there. Honestly best threat is hit, as RS is immune to expertise. A missed RS early on can REALLY ruin your day. I still don't stack hit or any "threat" stuff on gear. Just use other abilities/be ready to, incase of a missed RS. Most "5% chance" problems I have, I keep a back up, Example: instead of glyphing my taunt, I use DG when dark command misses. Also remember str gives parry (not a lot, but as ilevel gear increases, parry is such a give me so).

How our talents are built, most specs pretty much have 100% of every viable in reach defense stat, and threat should be main concern for most your points. Gear wise, ALWAYS go for defense. Weapon always go for top dps 2 handers (if you're DW its a little different due to larger variance on weapon speed).

Just got the life stealing 2 hander...its AMAZING due to the proc. 10% of my damage is that proc, thats 300dps/hps due to it being a flat proc. To explain I mean 2.5k damage proc 1-2 times a 10 second rotation is =damage for a dps'er or a tank while my 3k dps with 100% arp would be at most 6k, where a 8k dps with 100% arp would gain more than 3k dps. I'd say its definitely best in slot weapon at the moment (due to crit/arp/haste are % based dps increases) and only weapon to compare would be the legendary and probably NOT the weapon leading to it (due to the flat proc that only legendary has). Thinking getting 1 handers from onny to see if that proc has similar effects for a DW tank.

Note on above, "Always go for defense" is more always go for defensive stats. Don't want to be responsible for DK's with 600+defense. I always go Armor>defense>dodge>parry. And more stamina is always good, its somewhere between armor and defense stat.

Do you have proof on this? This might make sense for warriors, (I don't know) but for DK's no spec has a higher value for ArP than strength at the moment, not even blood. Taking what we know about ArP from the various DPS threads that have explored it what you are saying seems incorrect.

Earlier you stated that in the absence of a major armor debuff, you found that ArP has more direct value (I assume than strength?) this is incorrect. Armor pen is more valuable the more you stack, as noted by various statweights where armor pen rises through the roof in best in slot gear. Armor pen would be much less valuable without rogue or warrior support on a target. Given that you probably have a very very low amount of ArP to begin with, gemming it makes no sense as the stat is worth much less at lower levels and much more at higher levels. You will never reach the higher levels with gems alone, and your tank gear doesn't have ArP.

I see absolutely no reason to gem armor pen as a deathknight tank, if you want to use gem slots for additional threat strength or expertise under the soft cap is the correct choice. Am I missing something? Or is there a reason to discuss ArP further? I can't see one.

Well lets see....
14 ARP (1%) vs 14 STR on a 2450 Heart Strike (my average) using Simple ArPen calculator on an average boss
1% ARP yields an increase of .36% damage or 8.82 damage after armor is calculated
14 STR yields an increase of 7.48 damage or even with all buffs included (VTW, Kings and 10% AP) it's still only 9.6 damage (yes I included the 4% 2h talent and 9% from Bloody Veng).
Wow you're right.....or are you? The ARP increased damage is final, the STR increased damage still has to be modified by armor which btw is still well over 30% and closer to 40% without external help from sunder/expose.
So you're only getting about 65% of this as an increase.
Now lets try 140 ARP vs 140 STR
10% ARP yields an increase of 3.69% or 90.4 damage
140 STR yields an increase of about 96 more damage but again this still has to be modified by armor.

So I think you have it backwards, External ARP from sunder or expose actually helps the STR stacking DK more than the ARP stacking DK but ARP still wins and by a good 30-40% too, even if you figure in the ratio of physical damage to magic damage that you do you're still looking at ARP being about 25% higher.
STR wouldn't win or even come close untill the mob/boss was at almost 0 armor.

There really is a reason why Bliz nerfed ARP rating and are trying to get rid of it all together come Cat, it's still OP.

You did have something right tho, getting EXP to the soft cap is still #1.

The reason DPS warriors stack ArPen is because almost all of their damage directly benefits from ArPen and they don't have the crazy strength multipliers that DKs possess. Furthermore, their AoE abilities (Cleave, WW and Bladestorm) all directly benefit from ArPen while none (with the exception of HS cleave) of the DK's abilities do.

So while you might find that ArPen increases the physical damage you do at a greater rate than strength does, it gives no benefit at all to the very significant portion of your threat that comes from your many magic abilities. This is especially important for AoE threat, which, while not immediately important in ICC, will become more necessary as the zone becomes more unlocked in the coming weeks and we move on to hardmodes. Additionally, the value of ArPen is dimished dramatically on any fight where the boss spends a lot of time casting (see Worms, or Lady Deathwhisper), as you receive 0 RS procs during that time. Furthermore, strength provides a (moderate) increase in survivability that ArPen does not with the DKs natural conversion of strength->parry.

Finally, all this discussion is moot if you are not hit capped (which I can see that you are not). No other stat will come even remotely close to providing the threat benefits that hit will if you are under the melee special cap of 8% (the spell cap is also desirable because of the damage missing IT or a few DnD ticks can have on your initial threat generation).

Corian I think you missed the point of Kroot's post. He isn't attacking you personally, he is using you as an example of why gemming ArP is never appropriate. In addition to strength being better overall for multiple logical reasons, there is probably always going to be a better stat, in your case hit.

That is why he is saying the whole ArP gemming thing is moot, because there will simply always be a better option. Looking at the amount (lack) of expertise on ICC loot, its highely likely that expertise will be undercap at times inbetween upgrades.