Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking - Page 177

Drakkan · 02/19/10, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Lanlaorn

That armor mitigation (that is shown on your character sheet) is against a lvl 80 opponent. Against a lvl 83 target your mitigation is substantially lower.

Thank you, I was not aware of that. Now, I just have a few questions for those of you frosties...

What are thoughts about a IT, PS rotation vs HB with HB glyph rotation? I was thinking of GoRS, GoOB, and GoHB and going with only keeping frost fever up and saving the GCDs from using IT and PS.

I agree with putting points in SoB for the extra runic power. I have linked the spec I am thinking about (15/51/5) wondering your thougts. I do NOT have killing machine, wondering if anyone thinks that will cause a threat problem or if its fine without.

Illu · 02/19/10, 2:35 PM

I tend to agree that SoB feels most useful for Frost than the others, especially Blood (which is why I also think the DRw is clearly worth it now). Although on the topic of DRW, I do hate that DRW uses a GCD at times.

What I tend to do is glyph HB and still make sure to use two diseases, I believe there is quite a bit of discussion on this type of rotation in the Frost DW section atm. Priority is to apply FF through Rime or KM procs, and try to maintain BP while keeping the Oblits coming normally, and if this does not occur, just IT/PS normally. It's hard to describe it but is fairly reminiscent of the old blood tap 2h single disease rotation.

For single disease, it is more useful in heroics, in my opinion, where sustained threat is less important.

fno · 02/19/10, 6:02 PM

PTR Patch 3.3.3 Notes

The Icy Touch change was long overdue, the lack of burst threat has always been a major problem of the class. The others changes are decent as well - nothing too major (I suppose the buff to WotN won't make it live anyway!)

Melchior · 02/19/10, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by fno

PTR Patch 3.3.3 Notes

The Icy Touch change was long overdue, the lack of burst threat has always been a major problem of the class. The others changes are decent as well - nothing too major (I suppose the buff to WotN won't make it live anyway!)

We said the same thing about Ardent Defender.

My guess is their logic is thus: if block tanks become more powerful when there are more frequent hits of lesser impact, DKs being at the other end should be more powerful when taking slower but more significant hits. At face value the WotN change seems too powerful (we all recall why it was nerfed to begin with), but DKs are not in the same place as they were when WotN previously operated this way, and the actual EH benefit provided here is a fair bit more complicated than people give it credit for.

Cesrae · 02/19/10, 6:29 PM

Originally Posted by Drakkan

Thank you, I was not aware of that. Now, I just have a few questions for those of you frosties...

What are thoughts about a IT, PS rotation vs HB with HB glyph rotation? I was thinking of GoRS, GoOB, and GoHB and going with only keeping frost fever up and saving the GCDs from using IT and PS.

I agree with putting points in SoB for the extra runic power. I have linked the spec I am thinking about (15/51/5) wondering your thougts. I do NOT have killing machine, wondering if anyone thinks that will cause a threat problem or if its fine without.

I used a 12/52/7 to tank hard mode saurfang. I was under the impression that we weren't going to use a enhance shammy or else i would of specd out of icy talons. The 3 points in chilblains were to help snare but Im not even sure if it helped any since roots and traps are used. If some of the new changes go live I think frost is gonna make a very good secondary spec. It already looks that way for tank and spank boss fights.

Also I'm trying to get blues to respond to our necrosis/km procing dilemma so if you can put your 2cents in it would really be appreciated.

Bug Forum Post about DK Necrosis/Km ETC

Davia · 02/19/10, 7:39 PM

Death Knights

Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence.
Rune of Razorice: Now stacks 5 stacks of 2% Frost Vulnerability instead of 10 stacks of 1% Frost Vulnerability. Proc chance changed to 100%.
Talents

Blood

Abomination's Might: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc on certain strikes. Rank 1 is 5% attack power and Rank 2 is 10% attack power. The self strength buff remains unchanged.
Will of the Necropolis: There is no longer a cooldown on the frequency at which this talent can be activated. In addition, this ability can now also be triggered by damage which deals less than 5% of your health.

Frost

Endless Winter: No longer causes Frost Fever to be applied by Chains of Ice, but instead grants 2/4% strength. The previous functionality of this talent can now be attained via the Glyph of Chains of Ice.
Improved Icy Talons: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc. The self haste buff remains unchanged.
Nerves of Cold Steel: Now increases off-hand damage by 8/16/25%, up from 5/10/15%.
Unbreakable Armor: The amount of strength granted is now 20%, up from 10%.

Unholy

Scourge Strike: Now deals 70% weapon damage, plus 12% of physical damage done as shadow damage for each of the death knight's diseases on the target. The net result should be larger strikes with no diseases present, while maximum damage with all diseases applied to the target should stay the same.

Preliminary 3.3.3 notes have the ICD on Will of the Necropolis being removed. Can't say I expected that one. That's a pretty powerful change though, and I'd say it makes the Blood DK the choice tank for hard hitters (hello Lich King).

The threat buff to IT is also a nice buff that should help a little bit with initial threat and make opening threat slightly less reliant on that first RS proc.

Wakez · 02/19/10, 7:44 PM

"Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence."

Now, we don't know the exact threat values this change brings, but could this possibly mean IT spamming will be a viable choice for death runes? Probably not, but the wording makes me think it'll have quite the threat multiplier.

Pintofbrew · 02/19/10, 8:02 PM

Depending on how much additional threat IT gains, we might see single-disease Frost specs which use IT*2 when B runes are D. Provided HB is enough to keep IT up, then a OB-OB-BS-BS/OB-OB-IT-IT may be more TPS (and absolutely more convenient) than conventional IT-PS-OB-BS*2/OB*3.

The change to IT may also see two interesting shifts: Firstly, the detriment of GoD-Blood tanking, as reapplying IT will probably be more TPS (Even considering the mandatory PS) than Pest+HS, and secondly the increase in relative benefit of Icy Reach as a dump talent.

Frost also gains a non-trivial TPS on-the-pull advantage with UA. Now at 20% the increase is really quite massive. Whether it'll be worth speccing the new 4%Str talent is debateable however.

Very very interesting times ahead... Let's see how it goes.

saiyajinmaster · 02/19/10, 8:02 PM

Originally Posted by Wakez

"Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence."

Now, we don't know the exact threat values this change brings, but could this possibly mean IT spamming will be a viable choice for death runes? Probably not, but the wording makes me think it'll have quite the threat multiplier.

easy enough to find out once we see the modifier on test. My logs are showing heart strike usually hits a bit more than twice as hard as IT. So would have to be a pretty beefy gain.

Melchior · 02/19/10, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

Depending on how much additional threat IT gains, we might see single-disease Frost specs which use IT*2 when B runes are D. Provided HB is enough to keep IT up, then a OB-OB-BS-BS/OB-OB-IT-IT may be more TPS (and absolutely more convenient) than conventional IT-PS-OB-BS*2/OB*3.

The change to IT may also see two interesting shifts: Firstly, the detriment of GoD-Blood tanking, as reapplying IT will probably be more TPS (Even considering the mandatory PS) than Pest+HS, and secondly the increase in relative benefit of Icy Reach as a dump talent.

Frost also gains a non-trivial TPS on-the-pull advantage with UA. Now at 20% the increase is really quite massive. Whether it'll be worth speccing the new 4%Str talent is debateable however.

Very very interesting times ahead... Let's see how it goes.

Frost DW is also going to gain a decent TPS increase from the NoCS buff.

Really though with the changes Frost's challenge against Blood will be more about mitigation/EH than threat.

Pintofbrew · 02/19/10, 8:18 PM

Originally Posted by Melchior

We said the same thing about Ardent Defender.

So currently AD's <35% Damage Reduction effect is permanent, like WotN is on PTR? I was under the impression that while the AD CD was cooling the DR part wouldn't function (but the effect would only be triggered by the heal effect).

Melchior · 02/19/10, 8:27 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

So currently AD's <35% Damage Reduction effect is permanent, like WotN is on PTR? I was under the impression that while the AD CD was cooling the DR part wouldn't function (but the effect would only be triggered by the heal effect).

That's correct, the DR portion is passive and active even while the Paladin has the debuff from the AD on-death heal having triggered.

Where AD does not match WotN is that if a hit would take you below 35%, WotN mitigates the entire hit by 15%. With AD, only the portion of the damage that takes you from 35% to lower is mitigated. That is my understanding of the current mechanics, anyway.

Morganim · 02/19/10, 8:49 PM

What are you guys sacrificing to pick up DRW, i hadnt thought of it before checking this thread again, i had always assumed it had its own threat table similar to gargoyle. I was thinking of only running 2/3 in SoB, as i quite enjoy morbidity for trash, dreamwalker etc

Im running 53/8/10

And with the WOTN changes, blood looks like it will be staying as the strong tank spec for quite a while. 15% DR on almost every hit on the harder ICC 25 HM's will be quite handy.

Helheimr · 02/19/10, 10:42 PM

Dropping points from Morbidity is pretty much the best option; single target TPS its the lowest gain per point, and a shorter Death and Decay is unnecessary for pretty much every ICC fight minus tanking the home ship on Gunship. Deathwhisper, Valithira, and LK are the only other fights with add management, and none of those require heavy AoE tanking asides from Blood Worms spawning from Aboms on Val.

Have rogues TotT you on trash.

Autoband · 02/19/10, 10:43 PM

Ye WOTN will reduce any hit that either takes you under 35% or that you take at <35% with 15%. AD will reduce any damage that takes you below 35% by 20% (only the part under 35%, and this is active also if you are already under 35%). This mean that from a pure calculated EH point of view AD is slightly better, however in practise WoTN might come out slightly on top.

This change should make blood the best DK tanking specc hands down (EH wise), and on a very comparable level to paladins, above warrs and slightly below druids.

I'm only wondering how much threat an icy touch will do with the "very high threat" label attached to it, hoping it won't oblige us to do strange rotations (like IT + PS instead of an obliterate / DS ). And call me an optimistic, but we might even see 30 yard range Icy touch baseline.