Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking - Page 188

Gort · 03/16/10, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by Neddie

It's worth noting that warriors spam shield slam. From the warrior FAQ:

http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t88685-3...st_post_later/

The only reason warriors use abilities other than Shield Slam when aiming for max TPS is that shield slam has a cooldown. That cooldown has a chance of being reset with the Sword and Board talent. The CD is 6s by default, less on average because of S&B procs, but as soon as it's back up, warriors use it.

If DKs used every availble frost rune for IT it would have roughly the same CD as shield slam: 2 frost runes, 10s rune CD, 5s average. The trouble is, there are a lot of other really good uses for those frost runes: death strike, oblit, scourge strike, howling blast, death & decay... When a warrior hits shield slam it's only shield slam that goes on cooldown, nothing else.

If Icy Touch is too good, it becomes the only use for frost runes, locking us out of being able to use those frost runes for other abilities.

If Blizzard wanted it as a way to get snap aggro at the start of a pull, I can't help wonder if there's another way. For example, what if IT only generated a lot of aggro if there wasn't already frost fever (from that tank) on the mob. That way it is good at the start of a pull, but once your mob has frost fever, you want to use your frost runes on something else, until FF falls off, where you immediately want to hit IT as soon as possible.

The rationale behind spamming IT is "It's lots of threat!". Yes, this is true, however past the opening few seconds of a fight--once we're RSing, diseases up, etc--we don't NEED the lots of threat that IT spam would provide. As such, what's the point besides shiny numbers on Omen? (Let alone the hilarity that would then ensue if you say, tried to tank a Raging Spirit or any other mob that likes to silence or go spell-immune.)

So the choice really becomes "Excessive/unnecessary single-target threat" or "all my other tanking tools + personal DPS", and it's really not much of a choice as far as I'm concerned.

GravityDK · 03/17/10, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Cloudgatherer

In response to the below, there will now be differing TPS vs DPS rotations. The TPS rotations will have IT spam in them, the DPS rotations will be the "old" (current) rotations.

This is what smarter tanks will do. You only need threat initially, or when you are holding back dps, or might hold them back if you were to slow down; in other cases excess threat is not needed, therefore you'd go for damage output.

I'm not going to be changing specs in 3.33, many others won't either, but I will change my opening rotation.

Neddie · 03/17/10, 2:19 AM

Originally Posted by GravityDK

I'm not going to be changing specs in 3.33, many others won't either, but I will change my opening rotation.

What are you going to use as an opening rotation?

I wonder how much threat you could front-load with IT -> IT -> BT: IT. It would throw off your rotation later a bit, but for the equivalent threat of 3 shield slams in 4.5s it might be worth it. From a little testing on a training dummy, it looks like you can start with this and still work into a decent rotation pretty quickly.

IT -> IT -> BT: IT -> PS -> BS -> dump -> OB (for frosty type tanks)

IT -> IT -> BT: IT -> PS -> HS -> dump -> DS (for bloody type tanks)

IT -> IT -> BT: IT -> PS -> BS -> dump -> SS (for unholy type tanks)

If you then just use RP dumps carefully it seems to me that you can slowly work back to your standard rotation without too many GCDs where you're waiting for a useful rune to come up. If you're using a rotation that already staggers the two blood runes (say IT->PS->BS->OB/SS->BS or IT->PS->HS->DS->HS) it works back to the standard rotation almost immediately.

draxar · 03/17/10, 4:01 AM

I actually wont change my opening rotation at all.

IT - PS - BS - BS - Oblit (Empower Rune weapon*) - Oblitx3

*If I don't get a tricks or MD, using Empower Rune weapon gives me a great threat lead from the 3 Obliterates and (depending on the encounter) is often the best time to use it I've found.

I suppose there is the option of using Blood Tap for a 3x IT opener, but in all honesty, I feel the initial IT with a 7x modifier is enough of a buff to keep everything the same.

What I wont do however, is go to a Glyph of Disease rotation... but is any tank considering it? While the fix to the glyph allows for an extra Obliterate without losing IIT, I don't see it being worth the Glyph slot, nor losing out on our "Shield Slam" every 21seconds. But I do remember reading a discussion on it somewhere, mainly for frost tanks using it instead of UBA, HB or FS Glpyh.

GravityDK · 03/17/10, 4:12 AM

I haven't settled on exactly what yet, but some options are: to use blood tap to add an IT after the first IT/PS/DS/HS/HS, or to swap that first DS for an IT then use blood tap for extra HS in the second half of rotation.

Taxxes · 03/17/10, 4:50 AM

Regarding the two subjects under debate:

SD used to be a favorite talent of mine. Tanking Yogg --especially with missing keepers-- SD had multiple opportunities to proc in all phases, each of them being a noticeable aid to healers, whom we were obliged to go light on to meet dps requirements.

As far as ICC goes, I cannot say I have the same love of SD's rather specific utility. While its possible that it does mitigate some frost breaths, or assist a bit in lessening Soul Reaper, I cannot in all honesty say that

a) SD fits easily into a conventional Blood Tank build
b) SD deflects what I "want" mitigated

Thus I've dropped it. I might -in theory- pick it up for hardmode Sindragosa or even Festergut, who we are working on now. However, my concern is hardly on these "big magic bursts": they're predictable, or at least repetitive in a 'oh here comes another breath' sort of way, and between Trinket+Vamp, IBF, and AMS, the vast majority of such magic surges are severely lessened or easily healed through. Its difficult to argue with the "mitigated/deflected damage is damage untaken" logic because its so straight forward and true, but quite honestly there would need to be a very demonstrable usage to justify the talent investment in my eyes.

With regards to IT spam, I cannot say my rotation will alter, nor should I think anyone else's should, save Omen-monkies. DK threat and design are a bit haphazard at openers, but after the fight is well under way, I cannot say I've had to tell dps to chill out-- either I have a rogue or a hunter providing a bit of threat-help when required, or a simple ERW to pump more threat when I need it has sufficed in every case (with the exception of a TTW mage who plays fast and loose with his threat-buffer and puts out some rather impressive numbers).

Emi · 03/17/10, 7:31 AM

Originally Posted by Neddie

It's worth noting that warriors spam shield slam. ...

Im aware of that but theres another diference in that the warriors SS damage is considerably higher than ITs. So its beneficial to them threat and damage wise.

Agent · 03/17/10, 8:33 AM

In the matter of whether or not we switch to IT machine gun rotation, many have said that they will only change their starting rotation, or the first portion of the fight (until they get a nice lead on the dps). I think those ppl are forgetting that the reason the feel comfortable with threat is because you gear for it (with hit, exp mostly). Having a high threat rotation enables us to "sacrifice" those stats (and even talents) for more survivability, which is the real point here.
Since parry-haste is only enabled for 2 bosses in ICC and since IT isn't effected by expertise, will we really need any to keep threat ?

Chainpullz · 03/17/10, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Agent

In the matter of whether or not we switch to IT machine gun rotation, many have said that they will only change their starting rotation, or the first portion of the fight (until they get a nice lead on the dps). I think those ppl are forgetting that the reason the feel comfortable with threat is because you gear for it (with hit, exp mostly). Having a high threat rotation enables us to "sacrifice" those stats (and even talents) for more survivability, which is the real point here.
Since parry-haste is only enabled for 2 bosses in ICC and since IT isn't effected by expertise, will we really need any to keep threat ?

I think your still missing the point that the reason IT should ever only be spammed to get a lead is because you lose most of your damage. If you need to sacrifice the stats that make it so you can be useful on dps races then your healers must have problems.

Exemplar · 03/17/10, 10:58 AM

I would agree with the DPS generation argument. Additionally and possibly more important from a tanking perspective, if you pointedly avoid hit/expertise on all gear to scrape together a few more avoidance rating and a few more stamina, you leave yourself at the mercy of the RNG for threat. Your IT spam is at serious risk if you continually miss, especially during a pull. Seven times zero is still zero. Having to repeat an attack until it hits means you've lost the attacks you would have been performing instead (you can argue delay rather than loss, but repeating A delays B which delays C which delays D, which means the fight ends with you doing Y instead of Z - net loss).

Dirtybird410 · 03/17/10, 3:56 PM

Simple Question:

With the change to IT threat, does it become more viable for threat generation to remove Epidemic from some of our "cookie cutter" builds?

keebz · 03/17/10, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by GravityDK

I haven't settled on exactly what yet, but some options are: to use blood tap to add an IT after the first IT/PS/DS/HS/HS, or to swap that first DS for an IT then use blood tap for extra HS in the second half of rotation.

Once a DK has access to 4PCT10, Blood Tap would be much more valuable for its cooldown properties. I do not think the threat gain from an extra IT substituted with or without Blood Tap would even come close to the damage reduction cooldown of 4PCT10 Blood Tap. Our normal rotations are sufficient for tanking now, and will remain as such. Only difference is we will get some more threat from our normal rotations. The increase in our threat is not proportional to an increase in every other class' threat (which is not happening), so there shouldn't really be a need for excessive threat production.

Now, pre-4PCT10, it could be an option in the most extreme of circumstances in which some form of ranged tanking was required, i.e. Rotface. In other situations where you need to pick something up from range, 2x IT or 3x IT with BT should give you plenty of threat and time to properly position yourself. I do not believe using IT when you are in melee range and able to use your other abilities (DS/HS) would be practical.

With that said, GravityDK, I am interested in your idea to use BT-IT after your initial rotation is complete. I usually save BT for an emergency VB, an extra HS (though I haven't found this to be a necessity), and most of the time, an extra BB during initial AoE threat.

kaenar · 03/17/10, 5:58 PM

About a month ago I decided to really work on my off spec tanking. I wanted to get into more randoms and raids. Here is my armory The World of Warcraft Armory - Kaenar @ Dragonblight - Profile

You'll see that my gear is decent for no ToC 10 or higher and I believe that I have gemmed properly. I just got the [Faceplate of the Honorbound] Faceplate of the Honorbound but it will put me under 200 hit (currently at 239). I also have a couple of other upgrades but they would take away from my hit in my finger slot too.

So I've done the searches and read what little info there is on being under the hit cap while still being effective. Am I to assume that it's not that big of deal and I should just go ahead and equip the gear and see how it goes? Should a tank ever gem for Hit?

Thanks in advance for the help.

draxar · 03/17/10, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by kaenar

About a month ago I decided to really work on my off spec tanking. I wanted to get into more randoms and raids. Here is my armory The World of Warcraft Armory - Kaenar @ Dragonblight - Profile

You'll see that my gear is decent for no ToC 10 or higher and I believe that I have gemmed properly. I just got the [Faceplate of the Honorbound] Faceplate of the Honorbound but it will put me under 200 hit (currently at 239). I also have a couple of other upgrades but they would take away from my hit in my finger slot too.

So I've done the searches and read what little info there is on being under the hit cap while still being effective. Am I to assume that it's not that big of deal and I should just go ahead and equip the gear and see how it goes? Should a tank ever gem for Hit?

Thanks in advance for the help.

That Helm, having a yellow socket and +12 stam bonus is a perfect example of when to use a +10hit +15 Stam gem. Or you could even use a +20 hit gem.

Many tanks have mixed views on hit/expertise since the are only 'threat stats'. Personally, where socket bonuses allow I have a lot of hit and expertise hybrid gems to keep me capped.

Remember, IT (for example) is on the spell hit, and when there are less raid buffs out there (eg 10 mans) I've seen it miss twice in a row. Being expertise dodge capped, I've seen abilities parried twice in row.

In my opinion, DK's should care about hit/expertise more than other tanks because of how our rotations work.

Pintofbrew · 03/18/10, 7:17 AM

Surely if IT-spam becomes a choice we should consider a 0-expertise setup with DW-Frost and DRM: Perhaps you'd have to convert to higher spell hit to ensure threat stability, but the evidence is interesting:

1) A parried OB still can proc a Rime, meaning low expertise is less bad.
2) Relying mostly on IT for TPS means you can safely wear 2 tanking weapons
3) It has the highest rate of IT on the opening: IT-IT-BS-BT-IT-IT-PS-PS. By then your threat should be well solid, switch to a normal OB/BS affair for the second clutch of runes, and after that you'll be at 6xD runes to go nuts over.

An interesting side-effect is that RP will totally overflow, something which was very rare as Frost before, particularly as fast tanking weapons may drain you with RS.

A consideration: Should we start prioritizing KM-IT?