To clarify, I was referring to giving up Improved Icy Touch, not Improved Icy Talons. In order to get Improved Icy Talons in an Unholy build, I'd have to forego Blood almost entirely. In order to get to VotTW in the build I posted, I had to forego Improved Icy Touch which gives mobs a 6% attack speed debuff. I liked the debuff for the reduced damage and the DKs I run with are specced Unholy so they do not provide it.
...I picked putting points in SoB and 2Handed Spec over BArmor because it seems everyone is in agreement that SoB is close to mandatory. I also read early in this thread that 2H Spec is better TPS per point than BArmor.
Will this build work or have I gimped my threat too much? I avoided losing any survival talents, but it is pointless if I live but can't keep threat. Is it worth it taking IIT for a raid buff or is it simply to great a cost? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
I don't think you should skip Vicious Strikes or Outbreak in a deep unholy build as Scourge Strike will be essential to your rotation and you're giving up a lot of damage/threat without those.
Also, I thought Bladed Armor produced a better dps/threat increase than the other talents in it's tier. The Blood build in the OP took Bladed Armor and 2H Specialization. The Frost build only took Bladed Armor.
Thanks for looking at that, I forgot to update the glyphs, I have the glyphs I'm using in there now, as well as a revised build based on what you suggested.
To answer the question: yes, Scent of Blood does give 10 runic power per melee strike. I can't, as yet, confirm if the internal cooldown has been removed. If someone else doesn't update it first, I'll post when I know for sure. Definitely gives huge weight to SoB.
As such, here's the unholy build I'll be trying tonight. Based heavily on Suno's build, sacrificing melee haste debuff on the boss for SoB. I'd considered sacrificing bladed armor instead, but I didn't want to lose all around threat gen bladed armor indirectly provides. In the future, I may drop desecration and AMZ to get necrosis filled out and melee haste debuff back, but for now, while my guild is learning Ulduar, I want to have the magic resistance many of these fights seem to require.
I don't think you should skip Vicious Strikes or Outbreak in a deep unholy build as Scourge Strike will be essential to your rotation and you're giving up a lot of damage/threat without those.
Also, I thought Bladed Armor produced a better dps/threat increase than the other talents in it's tier. The Blood build in the OP took Bladed Armor and 2H Specialization. The Frost build only took Bladed Armor.
I apologize I linked the wrong build in my post. Here is the correct one. I must have copy and pasted the wrong one, I had a few talent builds opening looking at them all. That link will also make my questions about Improved Icy Talons make more sense.
I'm not 100% sure about 2h Spec being better, it is something I read earlier in this forum and could have been misinformed. If anyone has numbers on 2H Spec vs BArmor point for point I would be interested to see.
I just went outside Orgrimmar and I was having Scent of Blood procced quiet often, I didn't notice any internal cooldown (unless its 1.5sec). I was getting 10 RP per swing too.
You can notice that I gained SoB at 18:41:34 and gain it again at 18:41:36. The reason it didn't show me get hit by anything on the 2nd proc was because it registered in my combat log after the SoB proc, I went back and checked my log and I was critically hit at 18:41:36.
I also did a 25man OS before that shot but I reset recount before checking how much RP was generated through SoB.
To answer the question: yes, Scent of Blood does give 10 runic power per melee strike. I can't, as yet, confirm if the internal cooldown has been removed. If someone else doesn't update it first, I'll post when I know for sure. Definitely gives huge weight to SoB.
As such, here's the unholy build I'll be trying tonight. Based heavily on Suno's build, sacrificing melee haste debuff on the boss for SoB. I'd considered sacrificing bladed armor instead, but I didn't want to lose all around threat gen bladed armor indirectly provides. In the future, I may drop desecration and AMZ to get necrosis filled out and melee haste debuff back, but for now, while my guild is learning Ulduar, I want to have the magic resistance many of these fights seem to require.
I'd be really curious how well Unholy does with the change from Blade Barrier - I always saw that change as the ultimate kick in the nuts for Bone Shield. Add in the increased cooldown, how does it fare now? Why no wandering plague if you're going for AoE aggro?
Having tried both my earlier blood and frost build in 10 and 25man Ulduar (downed 4 bosses), I will say I think Blood doesn't match up these days. The loss of vampiric bloods usefulness, change to Death Strike (which may be ok in theory but I find to be lacking), and general loss of good "tank" tricks to make it work....not seeing the love anymore. Unless something magically changes, not seeing it be a real contender. More often than not, I found myself surviving better and thinking "damn if I was Frost..." for most of Ulduar.
I apologize I linked the wrong build in my post. Here is the correct one. I must have copy and pasted the wrong one, I had a few talent builds opening looking at them all. That link will also make my questions about Improved Icy Talons make more sense.
I'm not 100% sure about 2h Spec being better, it is something I read earlier in this forum and could have been misinformed. If anyone has numbers on 2H Spec vs BArmor point for point I would be interested to see.
I like this build a lot; it's probably very close to what I'll use if I go back to Frost tanking. If you do end up putting points in Bladed Armor instead of SoB, you may want to move the 1 point from Epidemic to Chill of the Grave for additional runic power. Losing Epidemic will make it harder to keep up your diseases, but the duration was increased by 3 seconds in the patch so it may not be a big deal.
After a bit of discussion on another forum, I may have found a spec that will work for me, but it does not have Blood of the North. I was wondering if anyone here could let me know if a spec without this talent is really possible? I realize I would be losing threat without the extra 15% damage on blood strike, and even more so on frost strike. Also, I cannot get as many Obliterates in without blood runes. However, in this spec, I will have a Icy Talons/Imp Icy Talons (since I never run with a Shammy) and a ton of RP generation with Chill of the Grave and Scent of Blood, allowing me to Frost Strike at pretty much every free global cooldown.
Any input would be appreciated. If anyone thinks that I shouldn't have a build without Blood of the North, where do you think I would pull those points from? The original build I was looking at had 3 points there, but to me it seems like a better all or nothing talent since I'd likely end up with just one death rune which really is no improvement over none. Thanks.
I'm curious as to what the rotation in that frost build would be...I'm pretty new to this and would like to test it out...thx!
Well, I spend some time making a spreadsheet to work out the rotation and see how I could make it work without blood runes. Since I have no blood runes, I will have less free global cooldowns as I need 2 blood strikes every time for blood runes, instead of 1 obliterate for half of them with death runes. It would be fairly basic though:
Single Target: Icy Touch > Plague Strike > Blood Strike > Blood Strike > Obliterate > Frost Strike (possibly x2 depending on RP) > Obliterate > Start Again
My only worry with this is in losing the extra cooldown, I may end up with extra RP since I have so much RP generation in my build. My hope is with the extra melee haste that rune strikes would make good use of it.
From here, I should have plenty of aggro and I can just work Howling Blast in when it fits or after any Rime procs and keep using Blood Boil to keep my blood runes on CD.
Anybody have any better ideas to go with this build?
I also came up with an alternative if not having Blood of the North just won't work, although I think personally I like the first better. Here I took both points out of Chill of the Grave, 2 points out of Bladed Armor, and 1 point out of Scent of Blood to fill up Blood of the North.
Due to the instances being so up and down testing is limited but results with these specs are as follows:
Blood: Threat here is amazing. Was able to peak around 10k and was sustaining roughly 7k according to omen. Aoe isn't horrible, but when tanking more than one enemy there is a noticeable damage increase over the old Frost spec I was running. Aoe Threat isn't great but it isn't horrible
Frost: seemed to be better for dmg intake when tanking more than one enemy. Single target threat seemed a bit weaker than blood. Though I need to run a few more tests. Aoe threat is better than blood due to howling blast, but, the cooldown added to HB really settled down this spec.
Any suggestions on the above specs? I have never tanked blood before so I have limited experience with expectations and am really just learning how to tank with it.
Last edited by Gundum : 04/16/09 at 1:12 AM.
Reason: problems with talent links
Blood: Threat here is amazing. Was able to peak around 10k and was sustaining roughly 7k according to omen. Aoe isn't horrible, but when tanking more than one enemy there is a noticeable damage increase over the old Frost spec I was running. Aoe Threat isn't great but it isn't horrible
Frost: seemed to be better for dmg intake when tanking more than one enemy. Single target threat seemed a bit weaker than blood. Though I need to run a few more tests. Aoe threat is better than blood due to howling blast, but, the cooldown added to HB really settled down this spec.
Can you account for why you would take considerably more damage as Blood than Frost when tanking multiple mobs? Do 3% miss and 2% mitigation for some reason have a more profound effect in multimob situations?
Can you account for why you would take considerably more damage as Blood than Frost when tanking multiple mobs? Do 3% miss and 2% mitigation for some reason have a more profound effect in multimob situations?
At the risk of sounding like a smartass, and I apologize if I am... You answered your own question. Yes, getting hit 3% more often fo 2% more damage has a more profound effect when you are being attacked by multiple mobs.
Last edited by Heartborne : 04/16/09 at 4:09 AM.
Reason: Typo Correction
A the risk of soundin like a smartass, an I apologize if I am... You answered your own question. Yes, getting hit 3% more often fo 2% more damage has a more profound effect when you are being attacked by multiple mobs.
I don't see why that should be the case, compared to tanking one (presumably harder hitting) mob.
Because WoTN is absolute failure in multiple mob situations and does little to nothing whereas 3% more avoidance, a 2% overall damage reduction, and UBA which is amazing for multiple/fast hitting mobs actually does quite a bit. Think!
I'd be really curious how well Unholy does with the change from Blade Barrier - I always saw that change as the ultimate kick in the nuts for Bone Shield. Add in the increased cooldown, how does it fare now? Why no wandering plague if you're going for AoE aggro
One of the reasons I stuck with desecration was to cover the loss of 2h weapon spec and wandering plague. In my mind, desecration should even out the lack of 2h weapon spec (5% to all damage vs 4% to only 2h melee), while helping to cover for the loss of periodic aoe damage ticks from WP by boosting BB and D&D damage.
To be honest, though, I'd be using a frost build if I weren't currently the only person who could lay down EP for my guild.
I just think you're exaggerating the difference between the specs outside of UA being up against low-hitting mobs. I find it a little hard to believe that you are taking noticeably more or less damage because of 2% mitigation (and isn't this tacked on after armor is calculated so that it is really more like 2% of 35%? I could be wrong here.) and 3% avoidance.
Because WoTN is absolute failure in multiple mob situations and does little to nothing whereas 3% more avoidance, a 2% overall damage reduction, and UBA which is amazing for multiple/fast hitting mobs actually does quite a bit. Think!
This is correct.
In the same way as Bone Armor favours single slow-hitting mobs (increasing uptime of the shield), Unbreakable Armor favours lots of low-hitting mobs, maximizing the percentual damage mitigated.
SQUEAK.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
Update to the build I posted before, someone asked what rotation I used so here it goes.
Open:
IT PS HS HS DS Horn DS HS HS HS HS DC
Rotation much the same:
IT PS HS HS DS DC DS HS HS HS HS DC
Basically I plug a horn into the middle of the Death Strikes to open to give me more runic for DS glyph, and then I plug a horn in later same spot if I need the buff. Generally I don't use horn after the opener because the dps takes care of it for me.
I"m really liking blood, AOE seems to be fine and single target threat is supper.
Did any Unholy noticed the incredible tps gain ? I went with a Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (armory isnt showing all the talents for some reason) and my TPS just went through the roof.
We didnt get pass Razorscale as we kept hitting the enrage but it was fairly obvious to me when myself and another prot pally went for the same sentinel. Snap aggro was always crap but out of nowhere i found myself easily getting over the pally which i simply couldnt do before the patch.
As for AoE threat it was too greatly improved. We went with a 3 groups approach and even with one or 2 not hitting my current target the aggro lead was so great that soon after i just stopped tabbing to check if there were any in danger of overaggroing.
Before Ulduar we tried a quick VoA 10 and went on add duty. Went in first to grab the adds and started my normal AoE rotation. Soon after we wiped on our 1st pull because i had overaggroed on the boss . I dont believe anyone was prepared, myself included ...
As for Scent of Blood, its no BoSanct but its not slouch either. At no time did i felt i had too much or too little, just the right amount to just not worry about it.
BTW, on the trash to the new VoA boss i hit 13.5k tps easily staying at about ~10k.
No idea about the sort of damage i took compared to pre-3.1 as i was still surprised by this.
Did any Unholy noticed the incredible tps gain ? I went with a Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (armory isnt showing all the talents for some reason) and my TPS just went through the roof.
We didnt get pass Razorscale as we kept hitting the enrage but it was fairly obvious to me when myself and another prot pally went for the same sentinel. Snap aggro was always crap but out of nowhere i found myself easily getting over the pally which i simply couldnt do before the patch.
As for AoE threat it was too greatly improved. We went with a 3 groups approach and even with one or 2 not hitting my current target the aggro lead was so great that soon after i just stopped tabbing to check if there were any in danger of overaggroing.
Before Ulduar we tried a quick VoA 10 and went on add duty. Went in first to grab the adds and started my normal AoE rotation. Soon after we wiped on our 1st pull because i had overaggroed on the boss . I dont believe anyone was prepared, myself included ...
As for Scent of Blood, its no BoSanct but its not slouch either. At no time did i felt i had too much or too little, just the right amount to just not worry about it.
BTW, on the trash to the new VoA boss i hit 13.5k tps easily staying at about ~10k.
No idea about the sort of damage i took compared to pre-3.1 as i was still surprised by this.
Have you asked what the other tanks were doing? You might not be generating a bunch more threat as much as the other tank might not be generating enough threat since 3.1.
Your spec looks good and I think it's going to be my alternate spec compared to the Blood one I am using (here. What rotations are you using for single target? IT PS BS BS SS SS SS SS? What's with the DRW glyph as well? I also thought if you were hit capped, the Dark Command glyph is basically useless.
Have you noticed any problems with the new Bone Shield cooldown on multi-mob packs? That extra minute really seems like it would have a major effect if you're dodge isn't approaching 28-30%. My tanking career has always been Unholy spec and I would love to get back to a familiar spec again.
Have you asked what the other tanks were doing? You might not be generating a bunch more threat as much as the other tank might not be generating enough threat since 3.1.
Your spec looks good and I think it's going to be my alternate spec compared to the Blood one I am using (here. What rotations are you using for single target? IT PS BS BS SS SS SS SS? What's with the DRW glyph as well? I also thought if you were hit capped, the Dark Command glyph is basically useless.
Have you noticed any problems with the new Bone Shield cooldown on multi-mob packs? That extra minute really seems like it would have a major effect if you're dodge isn't approaching 28-30%. My tanking career has always been Unholy spec and I would love to get back to a familiar spec again.
On that sentinel me and the pally went for he was on about 4.5k tps(about the same pre-3.1) while i was ~6.7k. BS lasted long enough to kill the watchers and sentinels and there was always IBF.
Dont know what link you're looking at since i dont have those glyphs . Im currently using : Bone Shield, Scourge Strike, Rune Strike for major and HoW, Pest and Blood Tap for minor.
My typical single target rotation is : IT, PS, 2xBS, SS, DC/UB, 3xSS, DC/UB. If SS glyph procs replace IT,PS pair with SS.
As for the AoE pull on VoA where i overaggroed : D&D, IT, Pest, UB, BB -> overaggro. But here im pretty sure the prot tank wasnt expecting such a tps burst ... and neither was i.
On that sentinel me and the pally went for he was on about 4.5k tps(about the same pre-3.1) while i was ~6.7k. BS lasted long enough to kill the watchers and sentinels and there was always IBF.
Dont know what link you're looking at since i dont have those glyphs . Im currently using : Bone Shield, Scourge Strike, Rune Strike for major and HoW, Pest and Blood Tap for minor.
My typical single target rotation is : IT, PS, 2xBS, SS, DC/UB, 3xSS, DC/UB. If SS glyph procs replace IT,PS pair with SS.
As for the AoE pull on VoA where i overaggroed : D&D, IT, Pest, UB, BB -> overaggro. But here im pretty sure the prot tank wasnt expecting such a tps burst ... and neither was i.
It shows:
DRW/Dark Command/IBF major glyphs
Deaths Embrace/HoW/Raise Dead for minors
I'm definitely gonna try this build on Saturday (first day in Ulduar) but I may go on a few Naxx 25 runs with it to test. I am curious about my TPS now against the new blood spec.
04/15/09, 6:36 PM
. I dont believe anyone was prepared, myself included ...
