Just to clear up a misconception (Either on the part of this poster's, or my own if mechanics have changed), my prior main for four years was a rogue, PPM as I have always understood it is based on the BASE weapon speed and that is it. IE: a 3.0 weapon with a 5 ppm proc rate with no haste or special attacks at all will give you a 25% chance to proc it per hit with the weapon, and that same 'chance' to proc remains even with haste and special attacks. So yes, 20% haste if you have NONE at all is substantial.

Killing Machine PPM is based solely on base weapon speed, so haste from gear/talents/buffs will increase the number of KM procs you get.

Some "PPM" based procs have been based on current weapon speed so that they don't benefit from haste (I believe Mongoose and Executioner had this property in BC, but I could be wrong). For these, special attacks use base weapon speed while autoattacks use hasted speed to determine the proc chance.

PPM does _not_ mean you should expect that many procs in a minute. In the case of killing machine, it is the number of procs you will average per minute over a large sample if all of your white attacks land and you have no haste. Precisely, you have a 5*base_weapon_speed/60 chance to gain KM every time you land a white swing. With a 3.4 speed weapon, that's 28.3%.

Indeed. Rereading the Proc Mechanics TTT, and updated testing from 3.1 PTR instead of the previous PTR where KM was changed, looks like I have my wires crossed on this particular change. KM will benefit from haste as well as Rune Strike, when tanking with a two hander especially. Post edited.

You think Morbitity is really a plus at all to frost? Picking up trash and incoming trash seems enough with howling blast, pestilence, and even blood boil now without the diseases. It would be easier than unholy dk tanks situation since howling blast is on a 8s vs dnd's 15s cd. Think maybe those 3 points would be better off in acclimation for ulduar?

You don't think that would be too much rp or do you think you can never have too much? I can see how the talent would be favoring bosses more, but I can still see myself just frost striking and rune striking that whole fight preventing myself from having max rp the whole fight. I did try this talent with 3/3 with my first spec, but was also new to frost (been unholy tank).

I think the cookie cutter blood build is quite good in general, however I have one issue. I noticed you put 3 points into sudden doom. Unless something has changed, I thought it was established that sudden doom was not really a good source of threat.

Some quick napkin math. Assuming a raid buffed attack power of 5500, and a crit chance of 15%, I calculate that HS should be doing around 3700 per hit plus an average of 800 for crits, for a total of about 4500 average damage per HS. Death Coil should be doing around 1400 per. Hence sudden doom would be adding an average of about 210 points of damage per HS, for about a 4.6% increase in damage.

For those 3 points you could get:
a) Subversion
b) Spell Deflection
c) IRT

All 3 seem like better choices than Sudden Doom. Subversion itself would improve your damage by more than 9% considering MoM. The other 2 aren't going to boost your threat, but are decent mitigation / healing talents.

Please let me know if my math is off.

3700 Seems a bit on the high side only because you're not accounting for armor mitigation. With a Worldcarver
I come out to 3960 Pre-armor non-crit damage. Also, factoring in Curse of Elements raises the DC addition to Heart Strike to 247.

With 5 sunders and blood gorged a boss should have 6868.5 armor rating (assuming you have no additional armor penetration gear on).

6868.5 / [467.5 X 80 + 6868.5 - 22167.5] = 31% reduction. so if you're hitting for 3960 before armor, expect to only do about 2732 after armor is factored in.

If DC hits for 247, you're looking at 9% increase in dps. With a weaker weapon like Inevitable defeat, Sudden Doom seems to be better than Subversion. But once you get an Ulduar 25 man weapon (or even better a Hard-mode weapon), subversion should pass it up.

Any other frost tanks feeling REALLY badly RP starved? I'm specced to fill out scent of blood and chill of the grave, but I'm finding myself always waiting for enough RP to frost strike or rune strike with no runes up. I'm to the point where I'm considering un-macroing rune strike from half of my abilities or more.

Also, to the OP's frost cookie cutter spec..... no scent of blood but you took epidemic and morbidity...

Anybody out there using D&D on single target mobs as frost? Or did you take morbidity purely for trash? I haven't even been using it on trash in Ulduar25 because there really isnt a whole lot of AoE tanking anymore.

And lastly, my threat seemed really low in a 10 man Ulduar last night due to being RP starved and hardly EVER getting KM procs. It was so bad I was about to say f this and go respec. My threat was nuts before 3.1 but then again that was with Blessing of Sanc. 25 man threat seems decent but nowhere near where it was.

I think overall your runstrikes will be better threat than your froststrike. Frost kinda has a disadvantage in that their strike is based on RP and not Runes like Heartstrike and Scourge. Do you have the glyph of Icy touch? Do you use your horn?

Hey Photek, I didn't know you rerolled dk tank like me. I am 23/45/3 in Ulduar and haven't had much problem with rp so far. I think I have died once when I wanted to hit IBF. Full frost with tundra stalker should be higher threat than VotTW by a lot. Some fights I have had to ask for a rogue to give me tricks of the trade every time it was up until I got way ahead. Specifically on Ignis and Hodir where you can not be in melee range all the time due to kiting/movement issues. I don't really think any other spec is going to have better rp management really, the days of usually having 100 rp anytime you hadn't used a rune dump for more than 5 seconds are gone. Frost strike is not better than rune strike for threat, and especially not after you get 2pc t8.

The aoe threat of the spec is pretty horrific, pretty much the only time I can hold aggro on more than a few mobs is with empowered/runetap doing d&d + 4 bloodboils.

Your math is wrong, at least on the value of Subversion. Since as blood, you won't be using Obliterate, Subversion is only a buff to HS. HS will be 20% of your damage or less, in all likelihood. Let's just say 20% for easy napkin math. With that assumption, *if* you take MoM (which I recommend against for reasons I posted earlier in this thread), the 9% crit from Subversion will be a 1.45 * 0.09 * 0.20 = 2.61% increase in overall damage, and less than that in threat. Not a strong candidate in my opinion, particularly since it requires MoM to be even that good.