Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking - Page 61

Barcode Too · 05/14/09, 6:26 PM

What do you think about this spec? Does it have the synergy needed for a good threat rotation? Seems like it would be great for survival, poor for AoE tanking

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Can pick up DRM in there for SoB... but if you did that you might want to drop blood of the north for 4 points in talons for threat/faster Rune strikes (probably have RP issues with no SoB though).

Another option would be dropping points in rhym and dropping blood of the north to get all the way to improve icy talons... then stuff your leftover points back in Rime. I think if you did this you would want to pick up DRM.

The RP dump is Frostrike/RS

Relies on Obliterate for threat

You get UBA and longer Icebound Fort (for some of the hard-modes)

You get the stam from blood and the chance to miss stuff that the 22/5/44 specs lack.

What are the main pitfalls with this spec? I'm just theorycrafting right now at work. Would this spec provide decent threat and high survivability?

Drolz · 05/14/09, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by Barcode Too

What are the main pitfalls with this spec? I'm just theorycrafting right now at work. Would this spec provide decent threat and high survivability?

I think it would take a big threat hit that isn't justified by 6% stamina. People use the hybrid Unholy/Blood builds to access more mitigation cooldowns through AMZ and Bone Shield when threat isn't an issue. The Frost/Blood hybrid doesn't really have this potential as far as I can see.

Barcode Too · 05/14/09, 7:02 PM

I was going for the high stamina of blood and the passive reduction/avoidance of deep frost. The extra cooldowns you get along the way are just bonus. I dont know I guess it kind of turns you into a druid with way better cooldowns. Maybe its not worth it, just a thought.

DWeidman · 05/14/09, 7:07 PM

Originally Posted by Drolz

Blood's big weakness, even with its vaunted self healing, is cooldowns, and trading a glyph that increases the duration of VB by 50% for one that is essentially a SLIGHT threat increased tacked onto a quality of life booster is ridiculous.

I understand where you are going - really I do. And before we continue - I agree a tank shouldn't be trading tank glyphs for "convenience" glyphs - so we are in agreement there

Since you play a frost tank - Blood has access to IBF (just your's lasts 9 seconds longer), AMS (Identical time , but our's takes more damage before breaking).

So you are trading Unbreakable armor (20 seconds) (DK version of "Shield") for Vamp Blood (20 seconds (DK Last Stand + healing)).

So where is the CD weakness?

Oh. And we get a free 4K heal (soon to be 5k) every time we hit with our main Damage Dealer. Free. For doing what we would have done... anyway.

Thx_138 · 05/14/09, 7:20 PM

Originally Posted by DWeidman

I understand where you are going - really I do. And before we continue - I agree a tank shouldn't be trading tank glyphs for "convenience" glyphs - so we are in agreement there

Since you play a frost tank - Blood has access to IBF (just your's lasts 9 seconds longer), AMS (Identical time , but our's takes more damage before breaking).

So you are trading Unbreakable armor (20 seconds) (DK version of "Shield") for Vamp Blood (20 seconds (DK Last Stand + healing)).

So where is the CD weakness?

Oh. And we get a free 4K heal (soon to be 5k) every time we hit with our main Damage Dealer. Free. For doing what we would have done... anyway.

Dont forget the the ability to grab Rune tap or Mark of Blood both clearly are also survivability cooldowns

Drolz · 05/14/09, 7:40 PM

Originally Posted by DWeidman

I understand where you are going - really I do. And before we continue - I agree a tank shouldn't be trading tank glyphs for "convenience" glyphs - so we are in agreement there

Since you play a frost tank - Blood has access to IBF (just your's lasts 9 seconds longer), AMS (Identical time , but our's takes more damage before breaking).

So you are trading Unbreakable armor (20 seconds) (DK version of "Shield") for Vamp Blood (20 seconds (DK Last Stand + healing)).

So where is the CD weakness?

Oh. And we get a free 4K heal (soon to be 5k) every time we hit with our main Damage Dealer. Free. For doing what we would have done... anyway.

The difference is between cooldowns that will actually save you from extreme damage and those that will not. The extra health you get from VB is a solid buffer, but it's still possible to die to a spike while it's up, particularly on fights like hardmode Thorim. It's also weaker as a reactive cooldown, because hitting it when you are already at relatively low HP is less likely to prevent you from dying to the next hit than a straight -40% damage to that hit.

Comparing Frost to Blood, Frost gets an extra 12 seconds of IBF every two minutes, and Blood gets VB, a less powerful cooldown for 20 or 30 seconds. Are you saying you get longer on AMS because you have 6% more stamina? That is pretty meaningless. Just going by this, I think Blood is weaker even with glyphed VB, and way weaker without. If you factor in UBA, and imagine you are being hit for an average of 20k it mitigates like 8% a hit, which is not much less than what you get when you convert VB's 15% HP into mitigation.

So yeah, not glyphing VB is just compounding Blood's existing weakness, I'd say.

discofurby · 05/14/09, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by Drolz

The difference is between cooldowns that will actually save you from extreme damage and those that will not. The extra health you get from VB is a solid buffer, but it's still possible to die to a spike while it's up, particularly on fights like hardmode Thorim. It's also weaker as a reactive cooldown, because hitting it when you are already at relatively low HP is less likely to prevent you from dying to the next hit than a straight -40% damage to that hit.

Comparing Frost to Blood, Frost gets an extra 12 seconds of IBF every two minutes, and Blood gets VB, a less powerful cooldown for 20 or 30 seconds. Are you saying you get longer on AMS because you have 6% more stamina? That is pretty meaningless. Just going by this, I think Blood is weaker even with glyphed VB, and way weaker without. If you factor in UBA, and imagine you are being hit for an average of 20k it mitigates like 8% a hit, which is not much less than what you get when you convert VB's 15% HP into mitigation.

So yeah, not glyphing VB is just compounding Blood's existing weakness, I'd say.

While I do agree that not glyphing VB is a bad idea for blood, You do forget that VB also increases healing done to you by 35%, so while it's straight mitigation is lower then that of IBF, it does mean that if you do pop it as your "OHSHIT" button, any heals that are just landing are going to top you off alot better then they otherwise would, on top of that a VB + RT while fully raid buffed is nothing to scoff about, it heals for ALOT for a 30 second CD for 1 BR.

Edit: I'm also a Frost junky if you can't tell by my DK's name

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Drolz · 05/14/09, 8:37 PM

I'm not forgetting it, just discounting it as something that will save you from extreme burst. Also remember that you will not always have access to two Blood Runes for VB+RT.

My opinion of Blood isn't that it's ineffective, just less effective in situations that are more important.

DWeidman · 05/14/09, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Drolz

I'm not forgetting it, just discounting it as something that will save you from extreme burst. Also remember that you will not always have access to two Blood Runes for VB+RT.

My opinion of Blood isn't that it's ineffective, just less effective in situations that are more important.

Got it.

Suno - can you update the OP to reflect that anyone running with a Blood Tank Build is semi-retarded (full retarded without the VB glyph).

Apparently, because of Thorim specifically, this build is not viable. Ever. At all.

Drolz - I am tired of playing jeopardy with you - where you come up with the answer first - then try to find the right question (either blood is bad or frost is better). Frost is a great tree. So is blood. Come back when you aren't so myopic.

Drolz · 05/14/09, 9:15 PM

Originally Posted by DWeidman

Got it.

Suno - can you update the OP to reflect that anyone running with a Blood Tank Build is semi-retarded (full retarded without the VB glyph).

Apparently, because of Thorim specifically, this build is not viable. Ever. At all.

Drolz - I am tired of playing jeopardy with you - where you come up with the answer first - then try to find the right question (either blood is bad or frost is better). Frost is a great tree. So is blood. Come back when you aren't so myopic.

Have you tanked any Ulduar encounters on your DK? I try not to assume things about posters or attack their character instead of their arguments, but you're not really giving me much to work with. Everything I say here is based on my experience tanking Ulduar on my DK as Blood and Frost. Notice I don't comment on Unholy because I haven't played it.

I'm not sure why you think criticism of a build based on reason and experience is more characteristic of myopia than blind adherence to the notion that all builds are created equal. I also don't think that I'm in the minority here thinking not glyphing VB is retarded.

Edit: If Frost is better then Blood IS bad, in my opinion.

jacclark · 05/14/09, 10:06 PM

Every time I analyze the trees for tanking I find the same thing. Blood gets stamina, improved self-heals and threat. Frost gets 3% avoidance, 2% damage reduction and threat. Unholy gets best magic debuff, a flat damage reduction x 6 strikes, improved magic resistance / shield, a magic zone and 10 min Army of the Dead. (Yes Pet is like a health stone too.)

So if you take the best of both worlds, which IMO, is stamina / expertise, passive magic avoidance, damage reduction, improved shields, pet, 10 min Army it always ends up being a blood / unholy spec. I've asked my guild time and time again versus my spec, a blood tank, feral tanks, warriors, and paladins and it's been consistently unanimous that I am a lot easier and more predictable to heal.

The biggest issue I find with a blood / unholy build is threat. Good rotations, using your DnD is paramount to maximizing threat. But I love the high expertise - it lets me use some new Ulduar gear with hit to improve my threat even more. The extra stamina is great. 34k unbuffed. 43k Raid buffed is terrific for Ulduar 25. 60% avoidance. Passive magic resistance, improved magic resistance, improved shield, magic zone, bone shield... and good DPS to boot.

The best part.. is that it scales... 6% extra stamina is nothing to sneeze at. Why do you think Blizzard nerfed shadow of death and its stamina buff. After this patch, DKs are the best tanks - hands down - best health, avoidance, mitigation and easily timed to make General Veraxx a stationary boss. Why make things harder than they have to be?

Kashir · 05/14/09, 10:48 PM

The only major advantage Frost holds is the additional 6 seconds for IBF. And yes, this is indeed an excellent talent! We fully recognise this.

6% stamina for Blood ~= 2% mitigation + 3% avoidance. Blood is more EH, Frost is higher avoidance.

VB is almost always better than UA. It's equivalent to a 13% mitigation + 18% healing boost. For the pure mitigation alone, (assuming 2k UA mitigation), you would need to be taking hits of 15k or less for UA to be better (and I'm not denying that there are some encounters where this is the case; Hodir's Frozen Blows was brought up as an excellent example). Adding an extra 50% duration and the healing boost gives a significant advantage to VB for the vast majority of encounters.

So really, what it comes down to is that Drolz keeps insisting over and over again that 6 seconds on IBF is better than;

The advantage of VB over UA
Will of the Necropolis
Mark of Blood
Hysteria
Rune Tap
DS healing
Abomination's Might

Will that extra 6 seconds save your ass sometimes? Certainly, but Blood holds so many other advantages that taking the position that Frost is almost always superior is silly.

// Edit: And for the record, I've gone from dual Blood / Frost tank specs to solely Frost tank (Blood DPS), just because I love Frost tanking so much more. I normally only get to tank in Ulduar_10 or zerg Naxx runs, so what I believe to be a considerable Blood advantage just isn't worth it for me.

discofurby · 05/15/09, 12:49 AM

Just wanted to add, that we've been doing Thorim hard mode all night, and I started off as Frost (I tried blood for the 1st time last night, and my threat was bad but I had no sunders so I was wary). But after about 3 attempts I've swapped to blood. I love blood particularly on this fight because quick taunts (after 6+ charges) can result in quick with back to back melee hits for 20k~, and having a Rune Tap for this is huge. I wish my threat was as ezmode as Frost still though

.

Edit: HARD MODE DOWN YES

Pyros · 05/15/09, 6:50 AM

Originally Posted by discofurby

Just wanted to add, that we've been doing Thorim hard mode all night, and I started off as Frost (I tried blood for the 1st time last night, and my threat was bad but I had no sunders so I was wary). But after about 3 attempts I've swapped to blood. I love blood particularly on this fight because quick taunts (after 6+ charges) can result in quick with back to back melee hits for 20k~, and having a Rune Tap for this is huge. I wish my threat was as ezmode as Frost still though

.

Edit: HARD MODE DOWN YES

Were you tanking the arena as blood? I usually go frost for thorim only because there's no other way for me to solo tank the arena without having dps gib themselves off AEing, even though blood would definitely be better for thorim tanking(VB is also a much better cooldown at 30secs than UA is). If you were tanking the gauntlet inside the tunnel then I guess it's fine, but AE threat as blood is pretty tough to secure, unless you went 21unholy too.

Vynn · 05/15/09, 11:27 AM

Blood can handle the arena just fine if you chose to go with DRM, without it, well have fun. You really have to be on your toes though.

As for the little argument between frost and blood. They're both great specs. I choose blood for VotTW, based on feedback from my healers and how they preferred the predictability of a large hp pool (closing in on 38k unbuffed, sacrificing dodge/parry) over spiky avoidance.

Also, the threat on blood if very nice. Tanking Vezax with the kite method, or killing Hodir hard mode with dps doing 9k, you need all the threat you can get. BTW, 2 piece T8 is lovely for threat.

Once I outgear Ulduar, I'll probably go back to frost, because I quite enjoy it.