There are only a few examples where Stamina is traded off against Avoidance (PvP gear, Resistance gear, occasionally DPS gear), and for this gear the wasted itemization points on mostly irrelevant stats are not worth the increased Stamina, except for encounters where you are required to soak a big hit and meet an unreasonable stamina threshold (Sartharion with 3 Drakes often required Druids to wear Frost Resistance gear for the additional Stamina, for example).
In most scenarios, you are trading between: Bonus Armor, Dodge Rating, Parry Rating, Expertise Rating, Defense Rating, Hit Rating. From these trade-offs, you build your different gear-sets, and then the rule-of-thumb is to gem Stamina for the best gains in survivability, unless there is a compelling reason not to (Being uncrittable, Stamina socket bonus, Trivial content, etc.).
That's off topic since the OP clearly lists an avoidance gear set in relation to a stamina set and this was how the argument started. If you are determined never to trade stamina for avoidance (in actual tank gear), I don't have an argument here. Though of course I wouldn't understand giving any amount of avoidance for 1 stamina but that's another subject.
Originally Posted by Bolvide
Ledalax, the reason that tanks do not use pure 'of stamina' gear is due to item budget. Every item in the game has a certain stat budget based on the item's ilevel. There is a diminishing returns effect of sorts with regards to statistic distribution. Take for example Adventurer's Cape of the Bear which has 9 stamina and 9 strength compared to the Adventurer's Cape of Stamina which has 14 stamina, not 18. So while Stamina gives you the most benefit per point of the stat, an item with a balance of useful stats will give the most survival per item budget point.
That's what I would do and probably you. My argument was how someone with a frame of thought "I will gem stamina 1st at any chance and even avoid avoidance bonuses if that's how I'll do it" is going to ever choose avoidance gear over stamina gear and in the end have an 'avoidance set' to present in the OP of this thread. Because surely this is not about PVP gear vs Stamina for tanks gear this is Avoidance for tanks gear with decent stamina vs Gear for tanks with little more stamina only.
That's off topic since the OP clearly lists an avoidance gear set in relation to a stamina set and this was how the argument started. If you are determined never to trade stamina for avoidance (in actual tank gear), I don't have an argument here. Though of course I wouldn't understand giving any amount of avoidance for 1 stamina but that's another subject.
That's what I would do and probably you. My argument was how someone with a frame of thought "I will gem stamina 1st at any chance and even avoid avoidance bonuses if that's how I'll do it" is going to ever choose avoidance gear over stamina gear and in the end have an 'avoidance set' to present in the OP of this thread. Because surely this is not about PVP gear vs Stamina for tanks gear this is Avoidance for tanks gear with decent stamina vs Gear for tanks with little more stamina only.
I'm forced to draw the conclusion that you're intentionally missing the point. An epic stamina gem does NOT provide '1 stamina'. The argument is not '1 stamina > all'. It's the AMOUNT of stamina you get from the epic gem, compared to any other gem you can put in the slot.
This is not the signature you're looking for. You are free to move along.
-Curse you, Raglu!
Generation 28:
The first time you see this, copy it into your signature on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
I'm forced to draw the conclusion that you're intentionally missing the point. An epic stamina gem does NOT provide '1 stamina'. The argument is not '1 stamina > all'. It's the AMOUNT of stamina you get from the epic gem, compared to any other gem you can put in the slot.
I wasn't even talking about the current argument in that point. I specifically said it's off topic if we are only talking about avoidance vs stamina strictly since my main argument is related to gear sets and not the base comparison of stamina vs avoidance.
Avoidance Gear + Stamina Gems vs. Stamina Gear + Stamina Gems is personal preference + fight specific choice.
I don't think anyone is disputing the above and is merely arguing for it in two different methods.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Avoidance Gear + Stamina Gems vs. Stamina Gear + Stamina Gems is personal preference + fight specific choice.
I don't think anyone is disputing the above and is merely arguing for it in two different methods.
This results to Stamina Gems > Avoidance Gems.
I don't dispute that, at least in this argument, what I do dispute is having an Avoidance set in the first place if you are at the very basics so determined to think stamina is better.
Simply put: What I'm trying to say is: If stamina is indeed better than avoidance in gems - for you, or for a specific purpose - it consequently is also on gear sets. It absolutely makes no sense that - for your purpose - you determine stamina gems > avoidance gems and ignore the underlying reason reaching that conclusion when it gets to gear.
Hence if you are determined to give priority to stamina without exception - at least for a specific purpose/encounter - then you will not need an avoidance set.
Typically, if you ignore sockets (which, if you already agree stam gems are superior, you can safely do), you don't trade stamina for avoidance on gear. It generally comes down to avoidance and/or threat and/or extra armor. Stamina is mainly just a matter of the slot the gear occupies, the ilvl/rarity of the gear, and how many gem sockets the gear has.
As such, that is why you can logically rationalize gearing for avoidance while gemming for stamina - because you can't really gear for stamina and, when you can gain extra stamina on gear (gems aside), it's usually minimal amounts at some huge cost (due to how the more of a single stat a piece of gear has, the more costly additional points of that stat are).
Two gem sockets are worth 60 stam or 40 dodge rating. The stam is unquestionably better. Will you ever find two pieces of gear with that sort of trade off, maybe not of that magnitude, but of that ratio? No, never. If you could/did, however, then yeah, gearing for stamina would be superior, without a doubt.
From the above numbers it is obvious that gemming for additional avoidance is counterproductive while using the avoidance set due in large to the DR levels.
I don't dispute that, at least in this argument, what I do dispute is having an Avoidance set in the first place if you are at the very basics so determined to think stamina is better.
Hence if you are determined to give priority to stamina without exception - at least for a specific purpose/encounter - then you will not need an avoidance set.
You are not disputing that stamina gems are uniformly superior to gemming for avoidance (barring meta requirements). You appear to be disputing avoidance gear in general, under the fallacious statement that if you need a stamina set for one specific purpose/encounter you have no need for an avoidance set.
Just because someone personally desires a stamina set for one purpose/encounter (or many) does not mean they may not desire an avoidance set for another set of circumstances. Both sets are not mutually exclusive.
The goals of a tank are to A) survive and B) hold threat. A certain health pool is considered minimum for survival depending on the fight. Usually somewhere over 2X, where X is the damage a boss does in an attack. Beyond that some tanks desire more effective health (stamina and armour), while others prefer more avoidance. This falls into personal preference, desires of guild healers, and so on.
Especially as many tanks do not have Best in Slot of either Stamina or Avoidance, much less both, it is not uncommon to tweak for threat purposes. Swap a piece or two for hit, expertise, or avoidance (Rune Strike) to increase threat at the "sacrifice" of some stamina.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
I would like to know the average uptime if anyone logged it.
I've got it and started using it today, in full raid buffed environment this Sigil alone gives you a 2.6%-3.3% dodge (based on how much dodge you already have and the resulting DR). I'll try to get a nice clean log of it and i'll post it up. Or did anyone beat me to this and has more confirmed numbers on this? 'Cos if it does have, as suno is suggesting, a 100% uptime then this might become a pre-req for every DK tank?
I've got it and started using it today, in full raid buffed environment this Sigil alone gives you a 2.6%-3.3% dodge (based on how much dodge you already have and the resulting DR). I'll try to get a nice clean log of it and i'll post it up. Or did anyone beat me to this and has more confirmed numbers on this? 'Cos if it does have, as suno is suggesting, a 100% uptime then this might become a pre-req for every DK tank?
I used it on Vezax last week and had 26 procs out of 51 rune strike hits for an uptime of 86.9%. I'm going to go ahead and guess that it's got a slightly less than 100% proc rate with an internal cooldown of 10 sec. I didn't see any procs that were closer together than that, and I believe there have been claims the DPS sigil is 80%, so it would make sense for this one to be the same.
This snippet shows that the ICD is at most 10 seconds:
[20:53:55.326] Woes Rune Strike General Vezax *7255*
[20:53:55.686] Woes's Evasion is refreshed by Woes
[20:54:00.576] Woes Rune Strike General Vezax 3654
[20:54:05.373] Woes Rune Strike General Vezax 3828
[20:54:05.733] Woes's Evasion is refreshed by Woes
This snippet suggests that it's not 100% proc rate once the ICD is over:
[20:54:22.654] Woes Rune Strike General Vezax *6664*
[20:54:22.983] Woes's Evasion is refreshed by Woes
[20:54:28.233] Woes Rune Strike General Vezax 3592
[20:54:41.139] Woes Rune Strike General Vezax 3655
[20:54:43.061] Woes's Evasion fades
Even if the uptime is in the 80-90% range, that's still an enormous upgrade over Sigil of Deflection. And I'm betting it's pretty much 100% on faster hitting bosses like Algalon.
The tanking sigil has an 80% proc chance in wowhead's database (hasn't been wrong to my knowledge). 10 second ICD confirms other data I saw.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Would it be worth using both [Sigil of Deflection] and [Sigil of Insolence]?
Swapping out Deflection once it procs, getting the benefits from both. (They do stack)
I've tried swapping macros before but never really found them working well with the triggering of GCD.
Just wanted to hear some other thoughts on this matter, unless it is too off-topic.
On topic: On my tests with just [Sigil of Insolence] I had a 100% uptime tanking Algalon, it refreshed right after the ICD, with +6 seconds left on the buff at worst.
The sigil should be evaluated in context. Algalon swings very fast, thus allowing more white swings to become Rune Strikes. The uptime in this encounter will be clearly higher. That's great, because it needs to be up as much as possible in fights of that type.
Compare it to a physical/magic boss like Jaraxxus, where uptime would be considerably lower. Similarly, the value of physical avoidance is also lower.
The context that deserves the most attention (where the item might be least useful) then should be slow, hard hitting physical bosses, where you're only given the opportunity to avoid 3-4 attacks in a 10 second period, and likewise where ~3% dodge is very valuable. Vezax is an appropriate example here.
I saw that you had a little comment on the side of the link to Mouse's loot list. I am a long time reader and figured I would contribute something back to the community. I am in the process of updating Mouse's Thread. My updated thread includes active bosses from 3.2 as of today. Hopefully I can finish off the list by this weekend or so. It is just a list sorted by iLevel not BiS or anything. It should pave the way for you folks with the brains to create BiS lists and whatnot. The new list can be seen here.
I have a question to all the much more experienced Death Knights tanks out there, I, in my guilds Alt Naxx 25 run, I brought my DK tank, now I am frost and I loved OTing fights and AoE tanking trash, but when I was called to MT single target, I felt like my rotation is butchered and awful. This is mostly because I read that I should be using DnD alot, most threat per rune ability, now that's all well and good, but is that threat worth the loss of threat from butchering a HB BS BS OB OB OB (Rime Proc) rotation? I have HB Glyph.
I use DnD on some boss pulls (Mimiron Firefighter, Thorim, etc) where I have time before the boss gets to me that I could use to generate RP and get my runes going on cooldown. It's not worth the hassle for single-target threat generation past that point, though.
On Maintankadin, they posted this formula for knowing when Parry > Dodge:
(character_sheet_dodge_% - 10 ) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 10) = N
If you're still below 1.88 then dodge will still give more avoidance per point.
Wouldn't this apply to DKs as well? Not that is matters much since my DK is below 1.88 (if I get the Sigil that would change), but just wondering if it applies.
Last edited by frmorrison : 08/18/09 at 11:56 PM.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Hey guys, first time poster long time reader. Pre-ulduar content I was a die hard frost tank with the occasional unholy tanking for different variations of sarth with drakes. When I heard about the nerfs coming to frost I decided to go blood for a while as I felt that unholys threat wouldn't be good enough. I was pretty worried at first about how my aoe threat would be but withthe talent that increases blood boils damage and morbidity combined with the DnD glyph seems to make up that lack of having HB or WP. Also with DRM you get plenty of flexibility to drop DnDs mid fight and still have options. I don't think blood tanking should be discredited for aoe threat at all.
Also can someone please explain to me why dks are still running around with stoneskin gargoyle? Is that 500 health the avg dk would gain from the 2% stam and the extra defense really worth dropping 4% undiminished parry? The only beneft I see to this rune is that you gain two benefits instead of 1 (haven't run into a boss that disarms me yet). But I still lean towards swordshattering. I'm sure this has been covered somewhere in the 50+ pages of this thread so I apologize if the answer needs to be repeated to me.
Maybe undiminished isnt the right term. I was under the impression that the4% was still 4 after diminishing returns, or does it depend on what your parry % is before you equip a wep with swordshattering on it?
Last edited by Cheesy : 08/19/09 at 8:28 AM.
Reason: Wrong term used
On Maintankadin, they posted this formula for knowing when Parry > Dodge:
(character_sheet_dodge_% - 10 ) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 10) = N
If you're still below 1.88 then dodge will still give more avoidance per point.
Wouldn't this apply to DKs as well? Not that is matters much since my DK is below 1.88 (if I get the Sigil that would change), but just wondering if it applies.
Well, since we don't have a +5% parry talent those numbers should change to:
(character_sheet_dodge_% - 10 ) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 5) = N
If you're using Stoneskin Gargoyle (as I assume 95+% of DKs are) the numbers should be:
(character_sheet_dodge_% - 11 ) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 6) = N
Thus, it is significantly more difficult for parry to become more valuable than dodge for DKs than it is for Paladins (as should be expected). I'm not sure if the Defense/Miss from SSG has any additional effect on the numbers, but I don't think so based on the way I read the author's description/conclusions.
If you're using Swordshattering then it's closer to the Pally/Warrior formula, but I don't know anyone who willingly trades their precious 2% Stamina for that 1% avoidance :
(character_sheet_dodge_% - 10 ) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 9) = N
Note: I simply tried to apply DK mechanics to the conclusions of the MainTankadin post - I don't know how sound it all actually is or if there's some other wrench "being a DK" throws into the math. Here's the post if anyone else wants to try and pick it apart in more detail.
Also can someone please explain to me why dks are still running around with stoneskin gargoyle? Is that 500 health the avg dk would gain from the 2% stam and the extra defense really worth dropping 4% undiminished parry? The only beneft I see to this rune is that you gain two benefits instead of 1 (haven't run into a boss that disarms me yet). But I still lean towards swordshattering. I'm sure this has been covered somewhere in the 50+ pages of this thread so I apologize if the answer needs to be repeated to me.
Maybe undiminished isnt the right term. I was under the impression that the4% was still 4 after diminishing returns, or does it depend on what your parry % is before you equip a wep with swordshattering on it?
Swordshattering: 4% parry (undiminished) and 50% disarm reduction
Stoneskin Garg: 25 defense SKILL (undiminished) and 2% stamina
25 defense skill gives you 1% dodge/parry/miss, so at the end you are looking at 1% avoidance v. 2% stamina
Also going SSG lets you gem towards effective health instead of gemming for defense, which is the trend of most fights in ulduar. ToC has been very easy so far so I can't say what's in the store for the future.
So now that getting good gear is a matter of mindlessly grinding heroics I decided to gear up my DK to tank. I made a spreadsheet based on what I had at the time, including valor legs and a boe hodir gem my gm gifted me. So if you use this as a guide finding suitable replacements isn't hard. The emblem of valor ring is pretty good. Everything else is either a 5-man ToC drop or bought with badges. I also assumed I'd do the daily for Triumphs every day (7 more to go for my shoulders!).
In the end you get a well rounded tank that covers the necessary stats.You'll need 196 conquest badges and 30 triumphs. Doing every heroic every day (a bit much, imo) is around 50 conquests a day. But realistically getting 15-20 isn't too much work, 4-5 heroics a day including the daily dungeon. Gundrak, (timed) CoS , and Old Kingdom will give you 5 each, so it's good to include them.
In 3-4 weeks of grinding heroics and doing dailies you'll have a decently geared endgame tank.
I posted this in the DW frost thread already, but it applies to blood tanking as well so I'm posting it here as well.
At the risk of being laughed out of this forum, last night I discovered that some of our trained skills were reset to rank 1 in 3.2 (I think?). Namely the trained abilities Frost Strike, Howling Blast, and Heart Strike. Hopefully I'm the only idiot who didn't thoroughly read the patch notes or check my trained skills when respeccing after 3.2. If you haven't checked your ability ranks yet, you should.
So now that getting good gear is a matter of mindlessly grinding heroics I decided to gear up my DK to tank. I made a spreadsheet based on what I had at the time, including valor legs and a boe hodir gem my gm gifted me. So if you use this as a guide finding suitable replacements isn't hard. The emblem of valor ring is pretty good. Everything else is either a 5-man ToC drop or bought with badges. I also assumed I'd do the daily for Triumphs every day (7 more to go for my shoulders!).
In the end you get a well rounded tank that covers the necessary stats.You'll need 196 conquest badges and 30 triumphs. Doing every heroic every day (a bit much, imo) is around 50 conquests a day. But realistically getting 15-20 isn't too much work, 4-5 heroics a day including the daily dungeon. Gundrak, (timed) CoS , and Old Kingdom will give you 5 each, so it's good to include them.
In 3-4 weeks of grinding heroics and doing dailies you'll have a decently geared endgame tank.
08/17/09, 6:55 AM
