I personally roll Unholy tank, I started frost and loved it but, I just cant deny unholy seems so much better in my own opinions. Also from a personal stand point, even in single target boss fights like Grobbulus or heigan where im doing a lot of moving, its very easy to find a 10 second slot where u can keep the boss on a DnD or atleast a large majority of the time. Whenever I do anything without D&D it just feels wrong. I have far from ANY threat problems I usually sustain about 5k tps on a normal 10 man fight when I'm not doing anything that requires amazing attention to detail, and that's while paying attention to raid members, making calls that need to be made and making sure everyone is on the ball.

I notice the rotation Buck has on the OP, let me say buck is an amazing person to manage the responsibility of the OP, Ive seen him on these forums since day one, and hes given me answers to problems more than a couple times, even though sometimes I have different opinions on talents or anything like that I know it comes through how I play and I respect he can lay a good foundation for anyone to play effectiely


that being said my favorite rotation to start any boss usually consists of

DnD>PS>IT>BS>DS(personal Preference)>(ERW)/Blood Strike>DUMP and repeat from there,
I have no problems sustaining this rotation, I never have anyone come close to keeping up with my threat and I personally think it holds a lot of room for recovery if you have more to pay attention to than threat gen

I am assuming you are still talking about the blood Sarth 3D builds so I will reply. Just keep up diseases and use leftover FU runes for Death Strikes (healing + death runes, threat is a non issue in this fight) which will give death runes if you specced into Death Rune Mastery. Use those death runes for more Heart Strikes.

IT/PS/HS/HS/DS
IT/PS/HSx4

Something like that. Mind you the specs posted for 3D Sarth will not be awesome threat so do not expect this to be your new all the time build. However, this rotation above worked fine for me and kept me topped off a little more often.

Why not just skip the HSx4 entirely, and drop DRM? For any fight where threat is a non-issue, that's a little extra free healing, 3 talent points and a GCD saved.

I'm the (unofficial, but effective) main tank of Tempest, anyway last week, after my guild was having some trouble with Patchwerk, I respecced from unholy to Blood, and I've really, really been loving blood as a main tank spec. I personally feel the safest with it, with a gigantic health pool (52k buffed + VB), extra healing, and an Ardent Defender copy that actually isn't leapfrogged. Plus, I feel I have the best emergency buttons overall. Since I respecced, although it certainly isn't just me, our runs have been smoother, and things have died easier.

Anyway, I tried at first with Imp. Rune Tap. It's a nice emergency button, and when glyphed, can be really nice in heroics and 10 mans (the glyph is great on Loatheb and Malygos). Less so in 25s. Still neat though. In general though, with Naxx being easy, I switched those points out for Hysteria, to put on our Fury Warrior, and Blood Aura for some free ambient healing.

On that note, does anyone know of an Addon that notifies you when Will of the Necropolis takes effect? I know one of our pally tanks had something like this for Ardent Defender a while ago.

I have not tried Blood for 3D 10 man as I just feel much safer with BS up most of the time. In 25 man, I just put our Druid on Sarth and he eats a couple of the breaths then gets 3 cooldowns (Sacrifice, BS, GS). In the 10 man, I cycle them so that AMS and IBF are back up so I can have 6-8 total cooldowns available. BS, IBF, AMS, Sacrifice, PS (AMZ), GS, AMS, IBF+BS etc. Not really sure if Blood can allow that flexibility, but again, I haven't tried it. Imp Rune Tap definitely seems like a lifesaver in some situations (I can't count how many times I've been overkilled by 100-1000 or so because I wasn't topped off right when breath went off).



On an unrelated note:

4197 DPS (9864 TPS) on Patchwerk (2:11 kill time).

No Sigil, no BoH.

43% crit rate on Obliterate.

Wow Web Stats

Eep. I really need to try frost out one of these days. We both have quite similar gear, but I only get about 2k DPS as Blood, and the highest I got as Unholy was 2900 DPS.

Hello all. I've been a long time reader, first time poster, so go easy on me ;-).

As any DK tank who has DPS worth their salt in guild can attest, the big eye is on pumping out threat right now. I was a long time Unholy tank and tanked trash like nobody's business but found that my ST threat was lacking in boss fights when we have 2 warlocks and a Spriest who are ranked top 20 worldwide in their respective classes for patchwerk dps.

I switched to a blood build this week and was happily surprised at the increased single target threat. Its not amazing threat like you frost guys are putting out, but it does enough to stay ahead of our dps while still maintaining the stats i want to have for progression when ulduar comes along. I'm not interested in lowering my avoidance/hp in order to put out wtf huge threat #'s, as long as i'm ahead of the dps i'm happy =).

I'm currently using the blood build in the OP, but with the changes coming in 3.1 will be trying out a spec as such:

http://www.wowhead.com

The 3 points in morbidity helps to fuel what is to become the new sudden doom along with reducing my DND cooldown which makes aoe tanking much better. Points are dropped from Rune Tap and Spell Deflection as I feel the points are wasted anyway. Rune Tap without the 3 points in imp. rune tap feels lackluster and I feel Spell Deflection is not a mandatory talent by any means.

This build is tentative and is highly dependent on talent shuffling in Frost and how good Sudden Doom is compared to the changes on Blood Gorged. I'll be testing both the OP blood build and this build when the patch comes out to see what comes out ahead. Sudden Doom may be neutered depending on if it's still auto crit or not, and any kind of internal cooldown it may have placed on it. But at first glance it looks to be a decent threat boost.

I've tanked 3D sarth as the OP blood build this week with no problem, only 1 outside cooldown(IBF, AMS, GS). The trick is not tons of cooldowns.....its getting your dps to crank it out so that shadron + acolyte + twilight torment are only up for 2-3 breaths.

This post is for notebook. With your frost spec. I'm curious have you tried just going diseaseless and cutting icy touch out? That may seem silly or that it is an obvious gimp to TPS/DPS, but I'm wondering if it would allow for more casts of other strikes or free up the rotation some from needing to BT or HC to get the ball rolling. Just an idea of something else to try. I thought of it because sometimes when my timing is off I'll cast something after my icy touch wears off and the hit doesn't seem that much lower. Let me know what you think.

I can't really comment on Blood or Unholy as I haven't played either since I leveled. I tanked as Unholy for about a week then switched to Frost. I do know, however, that one of my guildmates is (at the time of this post) in the top 15 or so for DPS/TPS using Unholy, and his record was set with a 185 DPS weapon (Titanium Destroyer).

Getting ridiculous DPS and TPS #'s is a result of a a bunch of variables.
Gear.
Practice.
Skill.
Practice.
Lots of reading and discussion (hi Ghaash!).
Lot's of experimentation (and thus gold).
Respeccing.
More practice.
... and of course, overall raid DPS (shorter fight time).


Volrath:

With a bit more expertise and the Sigil of Frozen Conscience, I think you will notice solid DPS and TPS increases. If you are still progressing, stick with what you have. It's very nice.


djt81185:

Ditch the 10 Parry / 2% TPS enchant and go for expertise. I lost a lot of expertise when switching to DB (for the hit) so I had to use Mark of Norgannon. Soon as Grim Toll drops, I'll be back to Inevitable Defeat (a weapon I much prefer to use for tanking). Get you expertise to 6.50% as soon as possible, higher if you can. This is somewhat tricky with a DB if you don't have access to a Mark, but you definitely can gem for it a bit. The rest of your stats are very solid. If you are going for raw DPS/TPS, I suggest using Monarch Crab with a 27 Expertise and a 24 stam, and filling out the rest of your gear with 2 more 27 expertise gems. Once you get an ID you can replace them with hit (that you'll lose from the DB).

I used to run 2x 27 hit gems, 1x 41 stam gems, but I wanted to try Rune of the Fallen Crusader. I needed to regem for defense (as I was using Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle), which made me lose a ton of hit. I had to swap out the 27-hit gems for 27 def gems. Then I had to use Mark to cover the expertise loss from Inevitable Defeat. I'm hoping Grim Toll drops which will allow me to use Inevitable Defeat again.

As I mentioned to Volrath, if you are in progression, keep your health and avoidance up as much as possible. Don't bother experimenting with DPS/TPS until you know the encounters well, and more importantly, you know your healers can keep you up with a lot less health and less avoidance. You aren't doing the healers too many favors by taking more damage... but your DPS will love you!

As for an all around spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Single Target:

HB (or OB), OB, BS, IT > ... (repeat) (need blood tap to set this up)

A more complex version is:

IT, HB, (blood tap), OB, BS > ...
HB, IT, OB, BS > ...
HB, OB, IT, BS > ... (repeat forever)

This is what I used (with 2 pts into RPM instead of 2HWS) for everything in the game except 3DSarth MT. If you plan to MT Sarth 3D, you will almost always have to respec our of Frost (well, at least I do!). However, there are some interesting Blood specs coming out lately that might work for an all-arounder, but I can't say for certain. Generally, you'll skip points in MS and AMZ for other TPS talents for an all-around spec... something you might need for Sarth.

I very very very much like the above spec.

However, a more basic version would be:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Single Target:

PS, IT, HB, BS, BS > ...
HB, OB, OB > ...
PS, IT, OB, BS, BS > ...

This sacrifices Virulence for Morbidity, and 2HWS for Epidemic. These allow you more breathing room as you won't have to constantly refresh diseases every single cycle, and your DnD is up way more often. This is a much more forgiving spec, especially good if you are just making the switch over to Frost and need to get acclimated to it.


Kbruin:

That's something I definitely want to look into. I'll run some more tests.

I dont see how 15 expertise ~ -0.45% dodge/parry are worth more than 2% TPS. Am i missing something (except for it won't show on meters, i guess)?

Don't demonize DB per se, orc DKs get 5 expertise skill or 41 expertise rating (1.25%) for it being an axe. That makes it a choice (threatwise) between
DB:
1.96% crit (melee and spell)
62 hit rating

ID:
1.28% crit (melee)
37 expertise rating

(str and str+ap from armor being roughly equal)
Of course, ID has 6 more stamina, ~0.80% dodge with my gear and 160 Armor, which makes it a clear winner for survival.

So my guild just drafted me as the new 3drake tank....as far as a i know im geared enough for it...im close to 33k hp unbuffed(i use my essence with the JC trinket and have a 2nd helm of vital protection with the 2% spell reduction meta in it)...i will use a slightly modified 3drake spec and will have a passive 25% spell reduction with vigilance.

Spec ill be using



I have been looking through the tank posts, and i admit not reading every single post, but i havent found any information on timing or rotation suggestions for tanking 3 drakes. Im sure i can figure it out as i go....but i for one don't even know what his "50k breath" is called. If anyone has a link to a forum....or a experienced 3drake tank would like to verbally spill the beans i would appreciate it.

Assuming 7500 TPS, would you rather have the 15 expertise or 150 additional TPS? Speaking for myself, I would definitely rather have the expertise than the marginal TPS gain (197 TPS from our last PW kill). I personally use HIT on my gloves, but that's just because I like being hit capped. Once that is done, I put expertise where I can fit it (within reason).

I wasn't demonizing DB. In fact, I'm currently using it over ID until Grim Toll drops for my TPS set. I always use the ID for my survival set.

Anyway... neither of them are Orc DK's. I was merely stating what I was doing in terms of gear swapping for stats. I'd much prefer to use ID + GT than DB + Mark for my TPS set... but that's simply my own personal preference. If I was an Orc, I would have a much harder time deciding. Gaining Grim Toll would net me 21 hit, 9 expertise (assuming I was swapping from GT + DB -> Mark + ID). I'd lose a bit of spell crit (not important when I switch to an Oblit-only rotation) and gain the other stats you mentioned.

On a side note, Grim Toll would also let me regem many of my +16 hit gems with +24 stams for my survival set.

Again, I much prefer the ID.

If you're going with that rotation, why on earth would you spec DRM?

I was just practising the boss opening with:

IT-HB-BT&OB-BS
ERW
OB-OB-UA-IT
OB-OB-IT-BS
OB-OB-BS-IT repeat

when i stumbled upon that bugged deathrune which i already heard about somewhere. It happens to me when i got 2 deathrunes active (one from bloodtap, one from bloodstrike) and bloodtap runs out. Then one deathrune switches back to blood and the other stays death "forever". Since this situation happens exactly with my opening rotation listed above if i don't use any of the deathrunes after the UA-line until bloodtap runs out. With the resulting perma-death rune it's possible to go OB-OB-IT -RP dump all the way. Further UAs can be used with the next bloodtap. Since this is clearly a bug and i'm not sure if i have enough RP (with BoSanc) to really benefit from the one global cooldown i have more without BS in the rotation, i won't actively use it in tonight's raid.

edit: blood/death typo
edit2:
Now that i am aware of the bugged death rune, i can't seem to NOT get it once the situation described above happens. Even if it switches back to blood after ~1min, it gets bugged on the first bloodstrike, turning it into a death rune. Only a relog seems to reset the rune. My previous rotation was IT-OB-OB-BS. I then switched to IT at the end (shifting it one place each rotation until it's OB-OB-BS-IT). While trying to figure out, which missed death rune would hurt more (the single IT cast or a death rune in an obliterate), i noticed that death rune misses refund the death rune instead of turning back to blood. I know that back in my unholy days, a missed double-death runed SS resulted in two blood runes. When did that change happen?

The wording for the meta gem is pretty direct. No where to mis read it. Seeing as no tanking gear has any resistances on it atm i dont see how the gem would even be useful in game. Ill have to check with a GM cause again the wording is very direct. Ill post back when i get a reply.


P.s Thank you for the link to the druid forums.

The reason you take DRM is for AE pulls. I wouldn't use DRM for anything besides 10man Naxxramas or dare I say it, heroics. I say 10man Naxxramas because in 25man I'm pretty sure the two other tanks won't have any problem with AE pulls. You would obviously take Spell Deflection and IRT over DRM and Hysteria/Blood Aura if you aren't doing 10man Naxxramas and even then you don't really need it either.

Shike,

Remember that Draenei aura is party only (yeah, one of those anomalies from Blizzard).
Go ahead and gear/gem for 7% hit if you are guaranteed a Draenei in your group. I would get 8% melee hit though as I don't always get a draenei in mine.

Because Alliance don't always run with draenei in their party

It's hard to keep track of raid wide buffs vs party buffs nowadays. Thanks for the answers gents.

Keep in mind, if you aren't speccing into Virulence, that additional 1% hit is going to help you get closer to spell-hit capped as well. Having a bit of extra melee hit is just going to get you that much closer to 16% (with Dranei) spell-hit, so if you can afford it, it's going to benefit you in the long run. You also have to determine if you are a big spell user (IT/HB/DC) or if you go "spell-lite" (only using IT's) or none at all (diseaseless, etc). Spell hit might not even be on your list of things to consider.

I would like to see the OP updated with various information:
- Recommended Sarth3D builds (a FAQ to be sure)
- Trade-offs between Stoneskin, Sword/Spellshattering Rune Enchants (It's been discussed, let's codify it)
- Gem choices (for threat vs avoidance vs stam)
- First and second choices for endgame tank gear (copy/paste from other posts found here or in the mega thread)
- Clarifications on talents (Will of the Necropolis was discussed/clarified, for example)
- The basic stats (8% hit, 26 expertise soft cap, 540 defense)

Anyway, those are just suggestions for the OP to update. Those are things I would like to see in a thread that detail DK tanking, similar to how I've seen other class/role threads in other forums. Thanks.

This is the Endgame Tanking Discussion, you should know what gems you need, you should know hit/exp numbers, and you should know how much defense you need.

I really don't think WotN is an Endgame only talent but I agree we could use some insight on its mechanics in the OP.
There is no place for a Sarth3D FAQ in this discussion but more information on the build itself wouldn't hurt.

There are no hands down best in slot tanking pieces because it all depends on what you need, although most people will either equip 4/5 valorous or the non-set ilvl213 pieces.