I don't really see those changes are nerfs. At 28289 armor, I have 65.00% physical damage reduction from armor. I don't think it is possible to get armor capped for us without inspiration. so at 28289 armor and either buff on me, it is as if I am armor capped. However, any armor past that will still increase our physical damage reduction.

I believe you would need extremely low armor values for this to be a nerf, values that no tank should ever have.

I don't really see that as a factor. VotTW+Frost Presence together still provide higher stamina scaling than warriors get. Bears get 25% bear form + 10% from talents, and paladins get something like 6% and 9% from talents (off the top of my head, don't shoot me if it's not exactly right). Warriors retain the worst stamina scaling of any tank, albeit with the highest base health. The tank classes have always had different health scaling.

What I find disturbing is that Ardent Defender became the old WotN, except twice as much mitigation and with Cheat Death added in. I can't imagine that version of AD going live, though with all the other nerfs, blood tanks may need an un-nerfed WotN to remain competitive.

Druids will have about 3k more armor, 2.25% higher base damage reduction, a "quasi" (Crap) block and 5% more health. If AD is nerfed (Which it probably will be), then druids will be the tank that does best on every fight. This won't even be a "choice", they will simply be better, in every way that you can measure a tank.

In fact, the base difference in mitigation is so high that a DK with IBF up will only be slightly ahead of a druid with Bark-skin up, except his bark-skin will be available twice as much.

If you do the numbers, again unless paladin AD is not fixed, druids are simply far and away better tanks. Then anyone. (If AD remains a no CD, mini, passive shield wall though, paladins will be.)

That isn't the way this will work.

First, 28.2k is 62.9% damage reduction (Don't forget, your character sheet is vs level 80 opponents.)

An inspiration on 28.2k will bring it up to 35,250 (More or less) or 68% Damage reduction.

The actual damage that this buff gave would be 14%

The current "buff" would give .371*.9025 (FB/BA)*.9 (Inspiration). Meaning inspiration would be equal to 8.9% damage reduction.

You need to remember that all this works in a multiplicative fashion, the armor increase was far more damage reduction than the new version. The only bonus to the new version is that all tanks will be affected evenly by it, sans the small differences in base mitigation.

If I remember correctly my paladin friend said that AD has a 2minute CD.

Death Knights have AMS and our VB should be weighed higher than Survival Instincts. I'd imagine if there were any really hard hitting bosses our IBF would be better then there Barkskin as a CD for it.


@Teiglin: Paladins get 14% stamina from talents.

Before the Necrosis Vs Sudden Doom conversation disappears I wanted to add that you can stretch the above numbers by Necrosis even further, two piece T8 will provide an extra 10% damage to Rune Strike in turn providing 1.2% more damage to a 3/5 Necrosis from Rune Strikes. If you're a blood tank it gets even better, a full 3 stacks of Bloody Vengeance will increase both your auto attack and Rune Strike damage by a further 9% translating into another 1.08% gain to a 3/5 Necrosis over Sudden Doom.

So in Avirex' scenario above -
Necrosis Damage at 3/5: 14655 + 1.2% (T8 2 piece) + 1.08% (assuming 3 stacks Bloody Vengeance 100% up time) = 17996

If you are a blood tank, I would suggest using IBF right at the end of Tympanic tantrum. Reason for this is that while boss is channeling tantrum, he doesnt melee. So only dmg you receive is from spark and tantrum. Thats easily healable with HoTs, AoE heals that your group receives anyway and Death Strikes.
When the tantrum ends, raid is still low, so healers need some time to get them up. Using IBF will allow them some time to bring raid to full, without worrying you will die.

The 3.2 patch notes indicated that the Cheat Death-like function of AD will have a 2min CD, and did not give any CD for the 35%-health damage reduction.

AMS is not exactly a strong defensive cooldown, even glyphed with 4t8. Its absorbtion is a pittance compared to serious magic damage like Plasma Blast and it's not long enough for something like Frozen Blows (and a bad avoidance streak would blow through its max absorbtion very quickly), though it certainly shines against Steelbreaker. Not that it's bad for situations where you can help your healers by mitigating a little magic damage, but it's not reliable for most predictable damage bursts.

I'm not sure I'd weigh VB higher than Survival Instincts. Even though they're both last stand imitators, they're still very different. VB's biggest power is in increasing healing taken, while SI just has massive health gain. Both have a niche, and I'm not sure it's really fair to flat out call VB stronger. Plus, only blood tanks have VB while all druids have SI, so you also have to consider Bone Shield and Unbreakable Armor; the latter of which could really use some help.

IBF always seemed a bit overpowered at 1min. Now you compare the 35% on a 2min CD to the 40% shield wall a glyphed, talented warrior gets, and it's not particularly unreasonable given that it's a baseline ability, and can last longer with frost spec or 4t7. Its RP cost is more of an annoyance than anything else, really, but DK cooldowns having a resource cost is (arguably) one of the interesting challenges to playing the class.

About pally health: now looking at the talent tree, are you sure Sacred Duty and Combat Expertise are additive? That's unusual, such effects usually are multiplicative, e.g. VotTW and Frost Presence. Either way, I suppose 14% is a reasonable approximation of 14.48% the two talents would grant if they multiply.

Forgive me if i misunderstood, but with the following change:
* Blood Strike: The bonus damage this ability receives from diseases on the target has been increased to 50% per disease.

Won't that make Heart Strike completely obsolete for ST threat? If I read it right, it means that with 2 diseases blood strike will hit for +100% damage, while with no change, Heart Strike would hit for only +20%. Based on a little napkin math, with an average white swing of 2000, and the bloody strikes talent, 2 diseases on your target means Blood Strike would hit for 3604 before armor mitigation, and Heart Strike would hit for 2661.6. Or was there some change to Heart Strike that i missed?

I did some math about the changes in FP being 10% Health to 6% Stam. This is a pure nerf by about 5% Total HP as shown by my math. It shows that the variance is less then -.1% while buffed with Kings over being unbuffed.

The following math was done using my DK tank: The World of Warcraft Armory

It was with the current gear and info from armory and all remember that armory doesn't show HP gains from FP.

Current tank gear with FP, I have 33414 HP.
(30376 x 1.10) = 33413.6 ~ 33414 HP

Same gear with 3.2, I will have 31706 HP.
(30376 + ((2216X1.06 - 2216)*10))
(30376 + ((132.96) *10)
(30376 + 1329.6) = 31705.6 ~ 31706 HP

That is a loss of 1708 Base unbuffed HP.

Lets look at it with Kings

Current:
((30376 + (((2216*1.10) - 2216)*10) )*1.10)
((30376 + 2216) * 1.10)
((32592) * 1.10) = 35851.2 ~ 35851 HP

New:
(30376 + ((((2216*1.10)*1.06)-2216)*10)))
(30376 + ((2583.856 - 2216)*10))
(30376 + (367.856 * 10))
(30376 + 3678.56) = 34054.56 ~ 34055 HP

So (as my frost spec) that is a loss of

Unbuffed:
33414 - 31706 = 1708 HP

(33414/31706) * 100 = 105.38 ~ 5.38% hp loss.

Kings:
35851 - 34055 = 1796 HP

(35851/34055) * 100 = 105.27 ~ 5.27% hp loss

What this math shows is that there will be about a 5-5.5% loss in HP from the change to FP being 6% stam instead of 10% hp alone.

Edit: Added math showing the actual percent HP loss.

While not a percentage, we will also lose the 10% extra health on the Commanding Shout or Blood Pact (2818), Stoneblood flask (1300), and Super Health Enchant (+275) the which is a ~439 health loss. Not a big deal, but when you add it all up DK tanks are hurting in 3.2.

I also tend to agree with the "first to worst" type assessments for 3.2. Seems the "block" values are being buffed and shield block is becoming pretty huge for Pallies/Wars, while at the same time our armor/hp/CDs are nerfed and DK tanks do not get a block mechanic. While I do not deny DK tanks are quite powerful at present and the typical preference for tanking, the sum of the changes look to make us the least desirable in 3.2.

This is actually a buff. The extra armor from Inspiration was nice, but depending on the armor of the person you put it on, could be less affective, AKA Druids. And for classes with less armor, it gave any where from 7-8% mitigation. This with full pts on the healer gives a straight 10% mitigation, so there is a slight gain, but that is to all tanks and still won't push for a DK tank that will now be less viable to be taken over Warriors and Pallies with the same avoidance (or a little less), the same arrmor, the same HP, and a lot more mitigation due to massive shield block values.