You're aware that the items discovered thus far in no way, shape or form encompass even half the loot available in ICC, right? There is certainly going to be several 2h agility weapons, present in the instance, they just haven't appeared on the PTR yet.
Unless they change the rules that have governed quest like the acid collection any Warrior/DK/pally with 25 primordial saronite and Light's Vengeance should be able to loot the acids just like a quest item from the heroic daily.
Unless they change the rules that have governed quest like the acid collection any Warrior/DK/pally with 25 primordial saronite and Light's Vengeance should be able to loot the acids just like a quest item from the heroic daily.
I believe on the PTR you need friendly rep to get the quest, however that could be changed on live. Even if it remains as is, getting 25 saronite is no small task (575 badges or good RNG). It would be interesting if all you needed was doing the few quests and getting the 25 saronite to get the weapon.
Also, while Shadowmourne is BiS for a DK tank, a raid is much better served by having a dps class get it.
Last edited by frmorrison : 11/22/09 at 6:52 PM.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
The 2 acids will not even be available till the second content release. Honored reputation after 3-4 weeks of 10/25m raid even just the 4 boss will get you very close if you over the top. When did it go up to honored? 150-200k gold would be plenty to buy every saronite.
The Sacred and the Corrupt begins the expansive quest chain to forge [Shadowmourne] from Arthas Menethil's former weapon, [Light's Vengeance]. Death knights, paladins and warriors must be friendly with the Ashen Verdict before Darion Mograine will offer this quest.[1]
That is a direct copy/paste from wowwikki section on the quest chain.
Originally Posted by frmorrison
It is barely possible to not reach the Def crit cap (using the proper Runeforge) once you get full 226 gear (which should be common by now), but it does help if you had weaker tanking gear. Note IBF gets stronger as you get more Defense.
IBF damage reduction is 30% hard capped. 20% with 400 defense then increasing until reaching 30% at 540. The IBF glyph allows 30% at any defense rating. These values are a direct result of a hotfix mid-summer from the IBF glyph glitch when it stacked with the 30% already granted. Unless changes have been made I believe this is accurate.
IBF damage reduction is 30% hard capped. 20% with 400 defense then increasing until reaching 30% at 540. The IBF glyph allows 30% at any defense rating. These values are a direct result of a hotfix mid-summer from the IBF glyph glitch when it stacked with the 30% already granted. Unless changes have been made I believe this is accurate.
IBF is 20% at 400 defense and around 41% at 540 defense, and finally 50% at 600 defense. This was done by in the summer.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I'd like to ask a question regarding Scent of Blood as a Blood-spec tank. I'm not tanking very impressive content, in mostly Onyxia, some Ulduar and ToC every so often. For a long while I had two tanking specs, one frost DW with Glyph of HB for AoE tanking scenaria and one Blood tanking for single-target.
While Scent of Blood was invaluable as frost (very frequently RP-starved, particularly with RS proccing vs. multiple mobs) I found that with Blood/single-target I was constantly overflowing with RP. Not only that, but often the third charge would be over-written by another proc. I decided to respec out of SoB and into Subversion, mostly because Heart Strike hits two targets and I prefer to tab-target Heart-strike during 2 or 3 mob packs rather than Blood Boil, which may not be enough some times.
Is there something I'm not getting about SoB? Do you get to RS so much more on hardmode bosses that it's necessary to have that much RP? I'll practically never have the GCD to Death Coil so all my RP willl be siphoned into Antimagic Shell, IBF and RS.
What rotation are you using? Most of the time I have the GCD in between the start of a new rotation to DC once.
You should however note, that as a tank you are not using your RP to DC often, you should use it to enable rune strike. I think I get to turn 3 out of 4 white attacks into a rune strike. That is what takes most of my RP.
Addionaly there are some encounters, that you are supposed to interrupt also costing 20 RP.
And in encounters like Jarraxus I barely ever use DC to have enough RP left over for the interrupt.
Personally, i tend to use 3/3 Subversion and 1/3 SoB in my blood tanking spec. This provides sufficient RP for RS-spam and an occasional DC whenever i have a spare GCD. Due to missed/parried strikes, these spare GCD's are rather scarce, resulting in plenty RP for MF/IF/AMS.
I Initiate IT-PS-DS-HS-HS/DS-[HS*4] and progress the rest of the fight with HS spam, replacing DS wherever applicable, and (Glyphed) Pestilence when diseases are ~4sec left. As you noted, I may get in one DC per two rotations, but that's not nearly enough to evaporate my total RP generation.
Misses are very much more of a problem than they are with Frost DW, so more often than not that one DC will get side-lined, just like Lind mentioned above.
I've got !Rune Strike mapped to every cast, and there are an awful lot of RS replacing white hits, but even so they're not nearly enough to drain my reserve unless a second mob is hitting me, making RS procs max out (which is where DW Frost proves superior). The only reason I suspect SoB is of any use is because my 23 Expertise is so low I'm spending too much time catching up with my runes for DC to become a significant drain on my RP.
All in all I find the mechanics of Frost DW (particularly single-disease) to be much neater and more convenient than Blood, but sadly UA is a much inferior CD than Vamp, and its one-rune cost doesn't combo well with the almost exclusively two-rune-per-cast rotation of Frost. That, combined with the low RP-per-sec generation of Frost (let alone the GCDs Rime procs eat up without generating RP) make an interesting conundrum where Blood spec often procs RS before the last one's been used, and Frost proc RS before there's enough RP to use it again.
The main advantage from high SoB I find is that it allows me to avoid bad / good streaks. If I get a good streak of avoidance or a bad strike of miss/parry, I don't want to be short rp to runic strike. Another big thing is on fights you need to ams/ibf/interrupt at critical times and you just need to have the rp available. Again I don't want to be low on rp at that point because then I have to stop runic striking to make sure I have the rp for other abilites.
On the other hand, I have no problem with my runic power bar being full. Doesn't prevent me from using up all my runes first then doing dcs or slipping in a dc during my rotation. I don't really see it as a waste anyways since dc is not that high on our threat but not having enough rp to runic strike is much more crippling. I see runic power as a bar I want to keep high (even over flowing) vs having it dip low and possibly being short at a critical time. I want to always time my abilities when I want to.
I feel 2/3 sob is good enough for toc but during ulduar I preferred 3/3 because algalon and vezax would require me to hold 40 rp while not stopping runic strikes. Play around with it and see what fits best for you/your group (maybe lots of resto druids) and the raid zone.
Also, while Shadowmourne is BiS for a DK tank, a raid is much better served by having a dps class get it.
I think that it is a bit premature to make this call. We don't yet know what the threat situation will be for raids decked out in the new endgame gear. I can certainly see a scenario where a raid may be best served by a main tank DK getting Shadowmourne for the sake of both threat and EH, especially if dps are having to hold back due to threat. Also, without knowing what the alternative weapons stats will be for dps or DK tanks, it is conjecture to say who should be getting the (presumably BiS for both) legendary weapon.
I think that it is a bit premature to make this call. We don't yet know what the threat situation will be for raids decked out in the new endgame gear. I can certainly see a scenario where a raid may be best served by a main tank DK getting Shadowmourne for the sake of both threat and EH, especially if dps are having to hold back due to threat. Also, without knowing what the alternative weapons stats will be for dps or DK tanks, it is conjecture to say who should be getting the (presumably BiS for both) legendary weapon.
Shadowmourne should go to a DPS. There will be comparable items (in terms of EH/avoidance) available to DK tanks that will suite our needs without wasting a large portion of the axe's tremendous power.
If your tank's threat is prohibitively low you should replace the tank, not throw him a legendary.
Shadowmourne should go to a DPS. There will be comparable items (in terms of EH/avoidance) available to DK tanks that will suite our needs without wasting a large portion of the axe's tremendous power.
If your tank's threat is prohibitively low you should replace the tank, not throw him a legendary.
We have this discussion over on Tankspot, and it's largely a waste of time. Shadowmourne should go to who deserves it... the end. Giving it to a DK tank is not the equivalent of giving a hunter Thunderfury. It's an end of expansion weapon, and largely shouldn't inhibit future progress either way.
It's also a bit too soon to throw out blanket statements without seeing the encounters in ICC. There have been several encounters in the game where threat became a factor due to various mechanics, and I would hate to see someone eating their own words in a month or so.
It's also a bit too soon to throw out blanket statements without seeing the encounters in ICC. There have been several encounters in the game where threat became a factor due to various mechanics, and I would hate to see someone eating their own words in a month or so.
And those encounters will be balanced around tanks that don't have legendary axes. Bottom line is, like Suno said, if you're tank is having so much trouble holding threat that you have to give him a legendary, you probably need a new tank.
On the other hand, I have no problem with my runic power bar being full. Doesn't prevent me from using up all my runes first then doing dcs or slipping in a dc during my rotation. I don't really see it as a waste anyways since dc is not that high on our threat but not having enough rp to runic strike is much more crippling.
Even playing relatively conservatively, DC accounts for roughly 6-8% of my threat a large portion of the time. Not an extraordinarily large number, but still enough to warrant weaving it into a rotation if you are really wanting to min/max.
Originally Posted by Darkside
And those encounters will be balanced around tanks that don't have legendary axes. Bottom line is, like Suno said, if you're tank is having so much trouble holding threat that you have to give him a legendary, you probably need a new tank.
Yes, and the DPS encounters are likely balanced around DPS that don't have legendary axes?
Am I saying it's optimal to give it to a tank? No.
However, there are a lot of situations that are pretty easy to imagine where a tank would benefit from them.
Again though, the "Who should get the legendary" discussion is pretty pointless, should be guild to guild, and rides more on the individual.
Even playing relatively conservatively, DC accounts for roughly 6-8% of my threat a large portion of the time. Not an extraordinarily large number, but still enough to warrant weaving it into a rotation if you are really wanting to min/max.
That percentage is much higher than most will see since you have both Morbidity and Sudden Doom. Tanking Anub my DC was 1.7% of my damage last week and 1.8% the week before that. As a blood tank DC is the worst threat/GCD at my disposal so it's always a last resort and blood has a might tighter rotation than UH or frost so lots of times it'll get left out.
And those encounters will be balanced around tanks that don't have legendary axes. Bottom line is, like Suno said, if you're tank is having so much trouble holding threat that you have to give him a legendary, you probably need a new tank.
Actually when I originally was discussing it I was more pointing out the EH on the axe.
All of the agility weapons shown so far have been high agility low stamina. Assuming the itemization carries over to hard mode gear, and scaling it up to ilv 277(using Distant Land - Items - Sigrie as a model) we'd probably be seeing 2 socket weapons with a total of 200-210 stamina after gems. Shadowmourne, on the other hand, would have 288 stamina.
That's a pretty immense difference in EH, which is what I was pointing out in regards to its merit as a tanking weapon. The threat generation is just icing on the cake. Plus there's the extra parry from the proc, but that's a marginal benefit.
Would Shadowmourne be still BiS for tanking even if gemmed for strength, thus losing its stamina advantage?
As many have said, it is quite clearly a dps weapon, and I will be getting mine for dps. But I have to tank quite often in our 25 man raids (if a 3rd tank is not available, or if one of our regulars has work or other issues) and I always tank in 10 mans. So the question that has been been on my mind is if it would be worth the trouble to death gate and swap the enchants on it every time I have to dual spec. Clearly regemming every time would be quite expensive but swapping Fallen Crusader to Stoneskin Gargoyle if I have to tank a full run wouldn't be a huge deal.
It's probably too early for this kind of question seeing that the loot tables aren't fully known yet, and it might not even be a big deal for progression by the time it takes to complete the axe, but I'm curious how this is going to turn out.
Would Shadowmourne be still BiS for tanking even if gemmed for strength, thus losing its stamina advantage?
As many have said, it is quite clearly a dps weapon, and I will be getting mine for dps. But I have to tank quite often in our 25 man raids (if a 3rd tank is not available, or if one of our regulars has work or other issues) and I always tank in 10 mans. So the question that has been been on my mind is if it would be worth the trouble to death gate and swap the enchants on it every time I have to dual spec. Clearly regemming every time would be quite expensive but swapping Fallen Crusader to Stoneskin Gargoyle if I have to tank a full run wouldn't be a huge deal.
It's probably too early for this kind of question seeing that the loot tables aren't fully known yet, and it might not even be a big deal for progression by the time it takes to complete the axe, but I'm curious how this is going to turn out.
It probably wouldn't be, provided there are DK usable ICC25 Hard Mode agility weapons. Without having the significant stamina advantage, the difference between strength and agility would make an agility weapon more effective for everything but threat.
It'd hardly be a bad weapon with STR gems in it, but it definitely wouldn't be BIS without stam gems.
Another big thanks to Fn for getting a jump on the 3.3 loot compilation, now viewable in the original post. It will be updated with functional links as they appear.
All of the agility weapons shown so far have been high agility low stamina. Assuming the itemization carries over to hard mode gear, and scaling it up to ilv 277(using Distant Land - Items - Sigrie as a model) we'd probably be seeing 2 socket weapons with a total of 200-210 stamina after gems.
I dont know what you are talking about. ILvl 258 weapons such as [Fleshrender] can already be gemmed up to 230 STA.
I dont know what you are talking about. ILvl 258 weapons such as [Fleshrender] can already be gemmed up to 230 STA.
I'm talking about Icecrown drops, which thus far appear to have been itemized much more heavily favoring agility than stamina, unlike ToC drops. ToC weapons in general are more weighted towards stamina, the only stamina favoring two handed weapon thus far in Icecrown is Ramaldni's Blade of Culling. The other two handed weapons, both STR and Agi based, favor the dps stat heavily over the stamina compared to ToC gear. For pure survivability the ilv 264 version of Brynntroll has lower stamina than [Fleshrender] or [Dual-blade Butcher].
Edit:For clarification, I'm basically saying that whether Shadowmourne is BiS for DK tanks or not depends purely upon what hasn't dropped, as nothing that has dropped, and nothing that has dropped on normal's Heroic ilv version, would be remotely comparable in EH.
I know it's not really the philosophy of these boards, but I'm here to ask for help on the use of Kahorie's simulator to generate EP Values for Threat for a classical Blood Tank Spec, much like Gravity.DK did for a Frost spec here.
I've read the whole thread about the simulator, and can't get it to work on my computer, all I get is error messages about Windows which I'm completely unable to fix by myself...
In case someone can help, and needs my stats in Tank gear, I'll be glad to provide all of them via PM.
With a survival-oriented (not threat oriented) blood spec with i245 gear, a little while ago, I did for 3.22. Haven't checked it in the latest version of Kahorie though to see if anything was wrong.
well i tried DW frost (we are talking about 3.2).
At first when i tried i had some decent tanking gear so i had to gem defense (less stamina),
though i had good threat (which i have problems with it in 2h)
so i told myself ill go back to 2h for health, until i will reach a decent amount of
defense from gear and than ill go dw... so after i wasted almost all my dkp for
some imba gear i got this thing:
Frost DW, over 41k hp without buffs
no need of defense gems (551 defense)
i would recommend this spec + going dw for people who are accessible for
the high end (current patch - 3.2) gear aka ToGC25, ToGC10.
Rotation
First macro almost all keys with runic strike.
rotation for single(Off tank \ Main tank):
IT > PS > OB > BS > BS > Runic Dump |> IT > PS > OB > OB > Runic Dump, Repeat
if Rime proc, you click HB right away.
if Killing machine proc try to frost strike right away (don't save it for HB - If Rime and KM proc together, first FS than HB).
rotation for AoE:
DnD > IT > PS > Pest > Runic Dump |> IT > PS > Pest > BS > HW > Runic Dump, Repeat
if Rime proc HB right away, if Rime + KM proc HB right away.
if only KM proc wait for HB to refresh cd and use it.
Warning!: if your using DW frost (this spec) make sure you have expertise over 28!
11/22/09, 5:08 AM
