Given that we're seeing a decrease in RS proccing due to the lower dodge, may I take this opportunity to remind everyone that for us, diminishing returns don't come into effect until 565/566 Defense, provided we're using SG or the new Nerubian Carapace Runeforge.
Yes evasive stats get progressively worse due to diminishing returns, but it's not like you'll get 541 defence and suddenly defence will be worth 0.013 EH. If you're feeling you're lacking in evasive stats, Defence offers good returns until the 565/566 break point, and even a little after.
The problem I did have was in survivability. I died several times on Marrowgar's frontal attack, and a few times to the deformed adds on Deathwhisper (who we eventually couldn't beat).
I was puzzled by the damage spikes those guys were able to put out.
I remember the deformed adds responding "Immune" to Chains of Ice. Regardless, it's easy to kite them without even chains. They move really slow. If you're struggling, you can even play taunt ping pong with a hunter or another tank. Trying to tank them is just trouble.
Changing subjects, I ended up on DPS duty during the Gunship battle. Our Paladin was easier to heal while tanking Muradin. I'm happier with Unholy ST threat, but I feel squishier than ever.
The 2pt10 tanking bonus gives rise to the possibility of general-purpose DnD tanks. Below are the current versions of the two DnD tank specs I have been experimenting with, along with notes and two sample rotations each (one for RS, one for when there is no incoming hit, __ marks empty GCDs for RP use). All four sample rotations have been tested extensively and are safe for /castsequence use when you need the extra attention time.
The DRM+GoD version of this build in 3.2 was not suitable for /castsequence use. With high-rolling removed from GoD, there were few reasons to continue using GoD, since DnD builds have high effective disease uptime naturally. Despite dropping DRM, the build still does not use SS. Fully talented SS has been improved significantly in 3.3, but it is a very costly skill in terms of talent points for a tank, and the talent points are needed elsewhere. 6-min AotD (DK Shield Wall) and perma-ghoul for insta-Death Pact (and controllable AotD) improve survivability. Healing from basic DS also adds some extra threat.
This build remains a DW/2H swinger in 3.3, but ICR and RS going from 1.5x to 1.75x has obviously shifted the threshold for DWing significantly. You need substantially more incoming attacks before DWing will generate more threat than 2H under ICR, so you need more mobs attacking you to hit the DW threshold now (on the other hand, the 1.75x multiplier makes it easier to hit the DW threshold when not under ICR). There are too many cases to cover here, so you will have to determine for yourselves whether an encounter calls for DWing.
Single-target threat remains a clear win for 2H, of course.
Despite its strong points, the Unholy DnD Tank spec remains primarily a specialied tanking spec due to a number of weaknesses in the build. First of all, using DnD in your standard rotation means that it may be on long CD when you need an AE pickup elsewhere; secondly, threat low-spikes can sometimes be a problem because DnD rotations are more susceptible to "recast cost" than conventional rotations; thirdly, the single-target threat generation remains on the low side.
The Frost DnD Tank spec solves these problems and is more suitable for general-purpose tanking. The rotations place HBs midway between DnD blind spots for in-between pickups; it is almost all spells, so capping spell hit will cut out most of the "recast cost" (parryable attacks do not need to be recast due to the use of GoD); it also generates strong single-target threat (thanks to the ToT RS, all that KM for HB, and DnD glyph+2pt10).
Of course, all that comes at the cost of Unholy spreading first-strike Ebon Plague for AEing. Also, instead of the advantageous 5-sec interchangeable mini-set rune timing of the Unholy spec, the Frost spec uses 10-sec full-set rune timing (necessitated by HB CD). When taking incoming hits (thus chucking ToT RS), most of the KM procs will go to HB naturally. The "no RS" rotation only HoW twice per rotation in order to get better KM positioning for its FS casts.
Last edited by Grigori : 12/10/09 at 4:10 PM.
Reason: Grammar
To answer a previous question, I think I was lacking melee haste/10% AP, which probably contributed to my threat feeling underpowered on single targets. Last night I had all the buffs, and single target felt ok (I also upgraded from 239->251 weapon, so there's that too).
Originally Posted by Gelsk
My aggro stinks. I went frost for all the aoe pulls, and its not working out. I'm thinking blood just for the ability to keep 2/3 the adds and rely on taunt for the final 3rd till I get what I need. HB is not working as needed. If you feel DK aggro is fine, explain to me how you tank gunship.
Like many other posters here, I cleared ICC10 Tuesday evening, then cleared ICC25 last night. I was MT on Marrowgar, "right" tank on Lady, Saurfang tank on the gunship (until I died as we were leaving first time, damage increase was probably new to healers), and we used a 3 tank rotation on Deathbringer. For trash I was running as Frost with talented/Glyphed DnD, and it still felt like agro was getting ripped both on trash and on Lady. I can't say I had alot of experience on these bosses, they were all 1-shots in our 25 man.
My overall impression is that the aoe threat is lacking, I don't think HB and DnD are really scaling that well compared to the other tanks (oh hi 2pT10), and we skipped an entire tier of content before we had to start dealing with "adds" and "trash" again (thank you trash-less ToC). Overall, I am inclined to agree with the sentiment that our "tank-fu" feels pretty weak this patch, and borderline "maybe use another class now?" Now I am not saying DKs are not capable of tanking the content, the content is really easy at present, but just by comparison to other tanks, DKs are feeling sub-optimal to the point of possible replacement going by class performance and ignoring player skill.
There is a chance I could run another ICC10 this evening on my warrior tank. While he is less geared than my DK, it would give me a basis of comparison. I also have a pally, but I use that for dps/heals and does not have decent gear to even try to tank an ICC10 or even ToC10 at this point. My theory at present is "tank everything with a paladin", the fact that they use shields, have holy wrath, and can die once every 2 minutes and shrug it off seems to make them "the choice" right now. Even warriors will do well, as a "block" is actually a decent damage reduction currently, and while everyone "avoids" less, a block will still reduce incoming damage quite a bit, especially on trash.
This certainly has nothing to do with how well Death Knights are able to tank. We ended up kiting them whenever one gets deformed.
Yeah, I seemed a little boggled by that. They were hitting me for more like 15k than 20, but even so... I thought Blizzard was supposed to be reducing spike damage? Thanks for the tip on kiting them, we were planning on trying that today, hopefully it'll help.
Have you guys been able to determine if their buffs can be purge/dispel/spellstolen? We tried it last night and the mage said he was able to spellsteal something, I'm not sure what. The priests however said they could not dispel.
As far as DK-tanking it goes, is this a fight that we should just stick to DPS, if a block/druid tank is available? Our Pally MT said he was only taking about 2k less damage from their hits than me, but he also gets the luxury of much higher EH via Block and AD.
EDIT: In retrospect this post seems a bit off-topic from DK Tanking. Sorry about that. Added a bit in relation to tanking.
This certainly has nothing to do with how well Death Knights are able to tank. We ended up kiting them whenever one gets deformed.
We didn't kite but I would save my Icebound Fort. cooldown for when one of them transformed, seemed to do the job very nicely and made it a very smooth transition.
Ive cleared ICC 10 and we are up to Lady Death on ICC 25. I havent had any problems with aggro whatsoever. Infact, I am holding aggro better than my offtanks (both pally).
However, that is only in regards to trash and marrowgar. The adds in Lady fight present a problem in that I cant use things I normally would to pick them up. The melee isnt a problem but the castors are. Normally Ill pick up loose castors with a strangulate or deathgrip, but those get reflected. Not only that, when i do get the castors on me, its hard to keep them there cause i cant use BB, DC or IT.
I'm starting to think that another tank should sub just for that fight.
We don't tank caster adds at all in 25man or 10man. There's always two melee adds and one caster add coming, dps focus fires caster (adherent) first, and any plate dps can tank it. In the meantime tank pulls melee mobs and faces them away from melee dps killing the caster (since melee mobs cleave).
Regarding Lady Deathwhisper add tanking, we found it was a bit easier to have me on the left side (since the 2 caster adds spawning on the right kept reflecting all my diseases back on to me.)
For the left adds I would start at the right Fanatic, and I would DG the other fanatic to me. The Melee DPS would just burst down the untanked caster add.
And yes if one of the fanatics gets deformed you have to kite them. Healers couldn't even keep me up through one with IBF and VB running.
We ran 3 tanks for the 25man(stepped down to 2 after Lady Deathwhisper). I personally noticed that my threat went through the roof. I normally do anywhere between 6k-9k TPS in ToGC, but the other night when we did our ICC 25, I was noticing threat upwards of 11k TPS.
Now I don't know if that had anything to do with the new MD or rogues just going nutso with ToT, but I didn't seem to even notice a difference overall in the amount of rune strikes I was able to get(from a threat PoV).
I will admit though, ICC is going to make me look at gear upgrades very very closely, because I'm looking for maximum health and maximum armor mitigation.
I was going through our logs for 25man Saurfang, and it surprised me to find out that our warrior tank took quite a bit more damage than what I did. Now I just don't know if that was do to the fact that our Parry is higher than theirs, or maybe I just had overall more avoidance, but the log clearly shows him taking more damage than I did on that fight.
I am a Blood tank in mostly 258 and I was def seeing major variances in my threat gen in ICC.
Some of this i'm sure has to do with not having been able to get an upgrade to my weapon (using the 232 pvp weapon still). However, is simply upgrading my weapon going to get me back to what i feel is acceptable threat gen...i'm not holding my breath to be honest.
Blood relies very heavily on Rune Strikes and now I find my threat is an RNG fest with the DPS in a contant state of stop and go...in a word it sucks!
Soon as we finished up ICC and went back to clearing some TOC hard my threat was crazy good suddenly getting my normal and more reliable amount of Rune Strikes at the new 17% bonus.
Now, the other problem i'm seeing...midigation. It's terrible compared to the other 3 block/pseudo block tanks.
I didn't see as much of a diff before when everything was hitting so hard but now with the faster hits for less damage the block tanks are soaking up a greater % of the damage compared to before.
The only option i have come up with is going for all the bonus armor gear from badges, going with double armor trinkets and getting the new BS tanking pants made asap.
Getting all this will put me around 40-41k armor and put me back on par with the blocking of other tanks.
Here's the thing tho...i'm not going to be able to grab even the first tier T10 untill i have spent almost 300 Frost on this other crap and on top of that i won't even be able to look at upgrades from Herioc gear later for half my slots as I will be dropping too much armor to change 'em.
The only other option i'm trying till i can get to the armor i want is to go Frost which i am not a big fan of with its' clunky rotation, rune dependency as well as the loss of Vamp Blood.
I switched over from Blood to Frost for Icecrown this patch.
I do agree threat generation is a lot more spiky than before, but overall I think it's fine. (There's no shame in asking for tricks/MD, too.)
Regarding the mitigation compared to block tanks - I'm not too sure we're in such a bad place.
Taking a very static bossfight as an example; Deathbringer Saurfang. In this log you can see me (Wake) and our Paladin tank (Vekna).
My average melee hit taken is close to 300 less than our Paladin tank. Albeit when tanking multiple lesser-hitting adds this would be different.
However, there may be something I'm missing here so feel free to disect the log provided here and enlighten me with whatever you find.
I switched over from Blood to Frost for Icecrown this patch.
I do agree threat generation is a lot more spiky than before, but overall I think it's fine. (There's no shame in asking for tricks/MD, too.)
Regarding the mitigation compared to block tanks - I'm not too sure we're in such a bad place.
Taking a very static bossfight as an example; Deathbringer Saurfang. In this log you can see me (Wake) and our Paladin tank (Vekna).
My average melee hit taken is close to 300 less than our Paladin tank. Albeit when tanking multiple lesser-hitting adds this would be different.
However, there may be something I'm missing here so feel free to disect the log provided here and enlighten me with whatever you find.
Only issue i see with looking at the Deathbringer fight overall is not knowing who had him longer during his frenzy, that would skew the numbers pretty quickly.
I'm just trying to even up the odds with the block tanks.
You're only going to see a few % diff between a Pally, Warrior and DK in total avoidance so basicly we're looking at around 41% (22 parry. 8 dodge, 11 to be missed). So everyone takes a reg hit 59% of the time.
Now you have warriors blocking 25%@3k(6k 60% of the time) 2/3's of the time and 100%@double block amount 1/3 of the time.
That 25% doesn't seem like it's very high at first till you realise that 25% is coming from the remaining 59%, so now the warrior is only taking a full hit 34% 2/3's of the time so in reality a warrior only takes a full hit about 22-23% of the time.
A 3k block warrior is blocking for 4800 on avg 2/3's of the time and 6k a 1/3 of the time or 5200 Avg over every 30 second parse.
In the end I look at this as my DK taking 5200 more damage than the warrior about 35-36% of the time or close to 2k overall.
I know i'm missing some other factors like flat midigation from talents and stance/presence ect but I just wanted some rough numbers to play with to gauge amount blocked to flat armor.
In the end i come to about the 70-71% armor or 40-41k for bosses who look to be hitting in the 50-65k range now.
I simply look at it like this as a DK, I'm going to take more regular hits than any other tank by a fair margin so I might aswell stack the one thing that will reduce all those hits.
Am I over estimating too much or too little, keep in mind this was a rough mock up to get a rough estimate and being off a few % was not important.
I was looking at Wake's parse and noticed a few things. He did take, on average, 300 less damage per hit. He also took 16 more hits than the pally (50% more), which would lead me to assume that Wake took more frenzied hits. What is also quite interesting is that I don't see a single UBA or IBF cast during the fight. This means that Wake took less damage than the pally, who was consistently blocking, without the aid of our major damage reducers.
I was looking at Wake's parse and noticed a few things. He did take, on average, 300 less damage per hit. He also took 16 more hits than the pally (50% more), which would lead me to assume that Wake took more frenzied hits. What is also quite interesting is that I don't see a single UBA or IBF cast during the fight. This means that Wake took less damage than the pally, who was consistently blocking, without the aid of our major damage reducers.
Yes that is correct, DK's should always take lesser full hits than anyone else with the exception of Druids who have on average comparable armor.
My point however is that only taking 300 less per hit is not going to make up for what Pally's, Warriors and to a lesser extent Druids are going to block for over the course.
Yes that is correct, DK's should always take lesser full hits than anyone else with the exception of Druids who have on average comparable armor.
My point however is that only taking 300 less per hit is not going to make up for what Pally's, Warriors and to a lesser extent Druids are going to block for over the course.
WTB less mana spongage PST!
I think you may be misreading what Gozor is saying. But it's alright, because Gozor missed the blocked hits when he was looking through the logs. The way the math works out ultimately is this:
Wake - 391909 dmg / 48 hits = 8164.8 dmg per hit
Vekna - 573845 dmg / 71 hits = 8082.32 dmg per hit
So the difference (including all of the damage blocked by the paladin) is 82.48 damage taken per hit from the boss. Gozor was right that the DK here didn't use UA or IBF once, which means he could have potentially reduced the damage he received in that fight. That would make the difference in average damage per swing even smaller than it was already. But I definitely wouldn't say that he was a much larger mana sponge than the pally for this fight based on the data in the parse.
I hoped i didn't miss the answer to this question in a previous post.
With the Chill of the Throne Debuff does that change the relative value of Parry vs Dodge?
On one side of the equation, since dodge's effectiveness has been reduced by the debuff, it would stand to reason that parry would gain in value. (It now scales better!).
On the other hand, because dodge's effectiveness has been reduced, it may stand to reason that it requires more attention, especially as it related to RS. (dodge has become more "valueable")
Incidentally, I was the MT for the ICC 10 run and didn't have problems with either threat or mitigation. (I DW spec, with a MH [Frost Giant's Cleaver], and BQS)
Incorrect. Chill of the Throne has no effect on the Dodge vs. Parry value proposition. It's exactly the same as it is outside ICC. It's a flat 20% dodge reduction.
As long as you're not hurting for expertise, the Deathforged Legplates are straight up better.
So is anyone plan to get tier beyond helm and shoulders, cause that +armor gear looks delicious with the +60% frost presence bonus. O yeah, does engineering's armor to gloves get affected by the +60%? I'm currently JC/BS and thinking of switching if it does. Reason for this is because % attacks we take is 20 higher, so not only is armor an amazing stat, but its used 20% more often.
I don't think that the bonus armor on the badge pieces are modified by Frost Presence. I think that even if it were I would still prefer the 4-piece bonus from the tier gear.
Bonus armor is unaffected by the Frost Presence modifier. This has been true since patch 3.0.8
Bonus Armor: The mechanics for items with bonus armor on them has changed (any cloth, leather, mail, or plate items with extra armor, or any other items with any armor). Bonus armor beyond the base armor of an item will no longer be multiplied by any talents or by the bonuses of Bear Form, Dire Bear Form, or Frost Presence.
12/10/09, 7:07 AM
