Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking - Page 89

Challenge · 07/06/09, 2:22 AM

If you were to drop a particular glyph from the tanking(blood) spec for the DnD glyph, which would it be? Assuming single target boss tanking as a priority, but also additional add pick ups and AoE stuff.

I'm inclined towards the DS glyph, but perhaps the RS one might be a better choice?

quietstrm07 · 07/06/09, 4:08 AM

Just a real quick question y'all. I've read this thread pretty thoroughly and for tanking Thorim's arena, I've been typically using a frost spec because I spec blood and frost tank. I was finding that the constant stream of aoe was finding gaps in the aoe rotation.

This is a link to my armory

I was wanting to figure out where to adjust points to possibly pick up 3/3 morbidity to help with the constant aoe aggro. I'm pulling the one from epidemic that I was using just to smooth out my rotation a little but am having trouble deciding where to pull the other 2 points from in blood. Which would be less of a ST threat loss because I do enjoy the balance of frost tanking quite well

Durzil · 07/06/09, 4:30 AM

I have tried searching but I keep getting an error saying my search is not long enough yet its 4 words.

I'd like to know if might of mograine is considered more ST threat than the last 3 points in necrosis.

So either 2/5 points of necrosis and 3/3 might of mograine

or 5/5 necrosis and 0 points in might of mograine.

Another option would be 3/5 necrosis and 3/3 might of mograine.

I didn't know which would provide more threat as a tank since I only crit around 20% of the time on the attacks affected my might of mograine.

I've always had might of mograine in my blood builds but I've been looking at trying to work necrosis into my build instead of sudden doom and then wondered about this as well.

zagor · 07/06/09, 5:34 AM

What I would add is that talents which boost HS are connected and dropping some of them lowers the benefit of others.

Some HS-related talents which could wary between builds:
Subversion
Death rune mastery
Sudden death
Might of Morgraine

I don't have any numbers, but if you had Subversion and DRM, that tips the scale of Necrosis vs. MoM. And a build without Subversion and DRM already puts lower value in Sudden death, MoM also gives less value then. I can't say how that compares to Necrosis.

From some posts I read here and from personal experience, Rune Striking whenever possible can put Necrosis to 1,5% dps per point, and that's a lot. If you have someone to keep the boss slowed (warr or druid) then it's easiest to move 3 points from IIT to Necrosis.

Neb_dk · 07/06/09, 7:13 AM

I was in a bad situation, i had to tank vezax and his add.

I had no person to discuss this matter, so i would like to discuss a good (vezax only) spec.

i tried http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...version=10048# and somehow it worked.

Dash · 07/06/09, 7:49 AM

Originally Posted by Neb_dk

I was in a bad situation, i had to tank vezax and his add.

I had no person to discuss this matter, so i would like to discuss a good (vezax only) spec.

i tried http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...version=10048# and somehow it worked.

For Vezax hardmode it's all about making the healers spend as little mana as possible in phase 1. The best tank for that are blood DKs because of the self healing abilities. If you used that spec, then you have put a huge amount of stress on the healing and you should be thankfull that they managed to keep you alive throughout the encounter.

The best spec for vezax (imo) is:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Bloody Strikes: At Vezax I always keep at least 1 blood rune off cooldown so I can pop Rune Tap as soon as I dip a little in health. On top of that I'll also use the blood rune for Vamp Blood, but that's only 2 times in the fight I get to use that one. As a whole though, I won't be using heart strike much at Vezax so Bloody Strikes isn't a very important talent imo. But you could max it out for Necrosis and 1 point of Ravenous Dead I suppose.

Improved Icey Touch: A must if you dont have any1 putting the 20% attack slow on the mob. Assuming you dont have any other tank specced players in the raid you need this talent.

Hysteria: A must have. Not for yourself, but to give it to your best physical dmg player in your raid. It's a HUGE dmg increase for the raid for just 1 talent point.

Improved Blood presence: I like the talent for self healing. Granted it's not a whole lot, but then there's not much else to get at that point in the tree.

Spell Deflection: Don't bother with that for a Vezax-only talent spec. Vezax does zero magic damage to the tank.

DRM, Morbidity & Sudden Doom: Don't bother with these either. You don't want DRM because you want to death strike as much as possible. That makes Sudden Doom a pointless talent and Morbidity too expensive a talent.

I hope this helps you repeat the encounter in a smoother fashion. This method works like a charm for me on Vezax 10m hardmode.

P.S. What the hell is that blood spec in your armory atm? For the life of me I can't figure out your intentions with it hehe.

Elimbras · 07/06/09, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Myrx

Edit: @Grief: I tank hard mode Mimiron as Blood, and during the second Plasma Blast I get wings from a Holy Priest. I have Vampiric Blood up during this one, and after 2 or 3 ticks of Plasma Blast I pop AMS to let the healers catch up. When I do this 90% of the time the wings don't get used. Take that for what you will.

Just read it, my DK is an alt, my main is priest.
You might want to know that the priest "wings" (guardian spirit) do not only prevent the death of the player, but also increases by 40% the healing he receives, as long as the effect is active. This second effect is often enough to ensure that the death insurance is not used, when there is no "one-shot" strike, but only fast hard-hitting hits.

Taizu · 07/06/09, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Dash

For Vezax hardmode it's all about making the healers spend as little mana as possible in phase 1. The best tank for that are blood DKs because of the self healing abilities. If you used that spec, then you have put a huge amount of stress on the healing and you should be thankfull that they managed to keep you alive throughout the encounter.

The best spec for vezax (imo) is:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

You took some very questionable talents there.
- 3/3 Ravenous Dead is no way a tanking talent; 3% STR is not worth 3 talent points for tanks. The only build that are justified for taking that is unholy (for ghoul buff) and blood (just so they can go deeper and get necrosis+BCB, plus they have a lot of STR multiplier)
- 2/2 imp Blood Presence... A typical tank doing 3-4k DPS will heal 120-160 HPS. ONE Rejuvenation tick is 2.4k every 3 seconds - that means ONE Rejuvenation heals for 800 HPS. Seriously, 1 SINGLE Rejuv from a SINGLE druid heals for 5 times as much as your 2 talent points. That talent is useless.
- I have a mixed feeling about Mark of Blood. 4% of your HP is really not that significant, considering that you heal 15% of your max HP everytime you DS, and heal 20% of your max HP everytime you Rune Tap.
- Hysteria is nice to buff the DPS, but at this level I would be more concerned about holding threat, and your build is very lacking on that department.

TL;DR, I tweaked your build to fit the job.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pugnus · 07/06/09, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Taizu

- 2/2 imp Blood Presence... A typical tank doing 3-4k DPS will heal 120-160 HPS. ONE Rejuvenation tick is 2.4k every 3 seconds - that means ONE Rejuvenation heals for 800 HPS. Seriously, 1 SINGLE Rejuv from a SINGLE druid heals for 5 times as much as your 2 talent points. That talent is useless.

It also boosts healing done to you by 10% .... although that's irrelevant to tanking since it's blood presence.

Dash · 07/06/09, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Taizu

You took some very questionable talents there.
- 3/3 Ravenous Dead is no way a tanking talent; 3% STR is not worth 3 talent points for tanks. The only build that are justified for taking that is unholy (for ghoul buff) and blood (just so they can go deeper and get necrosis+BCB, plus they have a lot of STR multiplier)
- 2/2 imp Blood Presence... A typical tank doing 3-4k DPS will heal 120-160 HPS. ONE Rejuvenation tick is 2.4k every 3 seconds - that means ONE Rejuvenation heals for 800 HPS. Seriously, 1 SINGLE Rejuv from a SINGLE druid heals for 5 times as much as your 2 talent points. That talent is useless.
- I have a mixed feeling about Mark of Blood. 4% of your HP is really not that significant, considering that you heal 15% of your max HP everytime you DS, and heal 20% of your max HP everytime you Rune Tap.
- Hysteria is nice to buff the DPS, but at this level I would be more concerned about holding threat, and your build is very lacking on that department.

TL;DR, I tweaked your build to fit the job.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

3% strength or 9% critrate on heart strike that I'll rarely use? Both are mediocre threat talents, I suppose it's what you prefer. Like I said, I went for 1 point in Necrosis which is definately a better threat per talent point then Bloody Strikes or Subversion. Since it affects your runestrikes as well.

imp Blood presence. Like I said, its a crap talent, but it heals you nonetheless. For Vezax you want to alleviate the healers as much as possible. So if you can keep your threat high enough then why not?

Vezax is a dps race. Your dps needs to be high enough so that your healers dont go oom before the encounter is done. I'll grant your critisism on Imp BP is warranted if your threat is suffering, but there is no excuse to miss out on Hysteria for 1 measly talent point. A feral kitty can do about 5.5k sustainable dps on vezax easily, most will do 6k. That's about 15k dmg for 1 talent point and you can pop it twice, but you prefer 3% crit on HS you use about once every rotation? And I haven't even taken heroism/bloodlust into account, which should inflate that 30k dmg to even more.

I don't like Mark of Blood much either for a generic tank build. Bosses hit too slow for it to matter much. But again, for vezax it's a bonus. 45k hp buffed is not unusual for a Blood tank, which means the boss heals you for 1800hp every time he hits you.

At Vezax p1 I'd ideally want to get by with shields from pallies/disc priest and omen of clarity procs from the resto druids. Sometimes in 10m vezax hm that's enough to keep me alive for entire p1 and the healers will have spent the minimum amount of mana on me. I understand this won't be enough in 25m, but neither has my threat been an issue there and we dont even do vezax25 on hardmode where the real threatmonkies (locks/boomkins) need to conserve mana for p2. So I opted for max survival build

Your post + mine should give any1 a good idea on what spec will suit his/her guild the best I suppose

Taizu · 07/06/09, 2:17 PM

My idea was, by taking DRM, we would have used HS way more often as you have Death Rune available in case you need to Rune Tap.

By not having to save a blood rune for an emergency Rune Tap we should have higher uptime on Blade Barrier (in case HS misses/dodged/parried).

I guess you're right that it all depends on your guild strengths/weaknesses... My guild has some very impatient DPS that always edges past my comfort zone while I am tanking, and my healers didn't have problem keeping the tank up. Gonna spend some quality time on vezax HM tonight and see I guess.

Reroller · 07/06/09, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dash

3% strength or 9% critrate on heart strike that I'll rarely use? Both are mediocre threat talents, I suppose it's what you prefer. Like I said, I went for 1 point in Necrosis which is definately a better threat per talent point then Bloody Strikes or Subversion. Since it affects your runestrikes as well.

Heart Strike should be your #2 ability used after Rune Strike, how can you say that you 'rarely use' this ability. If you are rarely using it, you're doing it wrong.

Last combat parse for General 25m HD, while tanking. . .my top damage abilities were:

Ability---------------Damage-------% Dmg----Total Hits----Avg. Hit----Hit Dmg----Crits---Avg Crit---Crit Dmg
#1: Rune Strike-----1059359-------24.6 %------338--------2190.9----740513-----70-----4554.9----318846
#2: Heart Strike-----963075---------22.4 %-----395--------1294.6----511385-----116----3562.2----413218

I'm hoping that formatting comes through. I know that at least when I am tanking General Vezax, I have a far from normal blood tank spec and I want to maximize my own TPS without relying on tricks/MDs as much as possible, in the end allowing casters to not hold back or waste their threat reducing abilities. I haven't had a problem with threat much at all which maybe due to casters not pushing enough or maybe I'm doing ok on threat too. I know our desto lock usually doing 11-13k tps plus though so I like to think my threat is doing alright.

I'm not particularly sure if you're doing 10 or 25 man HD General but either way, I was pretty thrown to see the words. . .heart strike, rarely used and blood tank spec all in one post.

concept84 · 07/06/09, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dash

For Vezax hardmode it's all about making the healers spend as little mana as possible in phase 1. The best tank for that are blood DKs because of the self healing abilities. If you used that spec, then you have put a huge amount of stress on the healing and you should be thankfull that they managed to keep you alive throughout the encounter.

The best spec for vezax (imo) is:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I can't begin to imagine how you can keep threat with a build and strategy for how you dump your blood runes. In 10m we get Vezax to around 5% before the Animus pops, and I have to RT+VB because I can't afford not to HS or do anything else but hit the boss.

Time is also big on this fight, and if you can kill Vezax 15 seconds after the Animus dies that also reduces the healing your healers have to do.

• frmorrison · 07/06/09, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by Durzil

I'd like to know if might of mograine is considered more ST threat than the last 3 points in necrosis.

Another option would be 3/5 necrosis and 3/3 might of mograine.

I didn't know which would provide more threat as a tank since I only crit around 20% of the time on the attacks affected my might of mograine.

MoM is a very powerful threat/dps talent that also helps with AoE threat (via Blood Boil). You want that maxed if you care about threat, since it affects so many abilities at once. Even assuming a 15% crit rate, that is more damage than necrosis.

Depending on how often you use HS, you may want Sudden Death over Necrosis (also this depends if you have DRM and Morbidity to buff HS/Death Coil).

Mericet · 07/06/09, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dash

The best spec for vezax (imo) is:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Bloody Strikes: At Vezax I always keep at least 1 blood rune off cooldown so I can pop Rune Tap as soon as I dip a little in health.

I'm also a big fan of rune tap, but I'm not convinced that keeping a blood rune ready to use is advisable because you're giving up 5% damage reduction from blade barrier for the duration of the fight in order to do it. You can get around this by macroing blood tap and rune tap together on a different button (probably a good idea anyway) and/or taking death rune mastery for a higher availability of runes, which as others have noted also allows you more options for better threat with heart strike without limiting your death strikes if you don't need the threat.