Yeah, I looked back and I had my warrior in both and I know he keeps the sunders up. In all honesty, on single targets I have never had a problem holding threat from the DPS. The only problem I have ran into is when I taunt off a pally (fights like saurfang) and get threat initially, sometimes I lose that threat back to them as they are still generating more.

I never ever gem for parry as DK's have plenty and it reaches DR much quicker than dodge but I have never thought of gemming armor pen. Right now I have 53.8% dodge + parry. I think once I hit 55% I will seriously think about gemming armor pen/stam in my red sockets. Thanks for the thought.

Tell the other tank to stop attacking for about 5 seconds after a taunt. Its not like his dps for a few seconds is going to matter. Better to have a clean taunt swap, you never know when the other tank will get rng and miss/parry his first few attacks after a taunt.

The other option is when you know a tank swap is coming up, sit on your runes for a few seconds before hand and then immediately unload with everything you have directly after the taunt. I've always found between the taunt equalization and then a full rotation I have no issues jumping well a head of another tank on a taunt swap.

I did some re-testing with latest version of Kahorie's, and found a survival-oriented Blood spec does 6% more tps than a threat-oriented Unholy spec. The gap only widens if you spec into anti-magic with Unholy, or drop WotN to gain more Blood threat.

True enough but after looking at parses of my threat overall, only a small % is from D&D, deathcoil and diseases.
Runestrike alone is usually in the 35-45% range of your total threat with Heartstrike a distant second but still way ahead of everything else.
Faster hitting Bosses like Alg my Runestrike Threat can get in the 55% range easy.

(These are threat values btw, not damage)
Rune Strike 34.4%
Heart Strike 24.2%
Melee 11.6%
Death Strike 6.9%
Death Coil 6.7%
Blood Plague 4.6%
Frost Fever 4.6%
Thorns 1.5%
Retribution Aura 1.4%
Plague Strike 0.7%
Death and Decay 1.1%
Icy Touch 0.5%

I have just found that ARP has more direct value especially when you're tanking without any arp support from rogue's or warriors.

For AOE there really isn't much you can do
D&D>IT>PS>Pest>bloodtap>BB>BB>DS>DS>BB>BB>Pest>D&D
I don't find aoe threat all that bad IF you're given a few globals to get going, but yea if you're looking for snap agro from blood you're not going to find any.
Besides, i have tanked beside a frost DK before and yea they have the initial snap but I will always pass them and have most of the mobs on me once the bloodboils start flying.

Im guessing you're not talking ICC fights here?

Last time I checked the logs, DS was <9% of my total dmg and RS <15% in ICC on (fairly) static bosses (Marrow and Saurfang). I'm starting to feel both glyphs are a little bit lackluster and am considering swapping at least one of them to DnD.

Edit2: this kept gnawing at me and decided to analyze the logs, and it appears they are wrong, merged incorrectly as far as I can tell right now. DS is around 10-11% of my total damage, while RS was still 24-26% of my dps on one of the more thrustworthy kills. Unfortunately I don't have other ICC25 logs to verify this now; any1 else who can roughly confirm those numbers?

I'm too proud to tell a pally tank to do that... they think they are soo good! Anyway, what would cause more damage from Runic Strike, ArP or Str gemming?

I agree, on my server I have to explain tank swaps to our paladin tanks. They seem to have other elements handed to them, and unless they play alts "Hold back on threat" seems a bewilderment. I found my threat to be incredible for single target if I time it right, so a good way to teach is to just go all out and let them experience the "I can't keep threat."

Also Arp may be better threat than str (its really according to gear) for RS, but STR is so much better a stat in every other way, just treat arp as not there. Honestly best threat is hit, as RS is immune to expertise. A missed RS early on can REALLY ruin your day. I still don't stack hit or any "threat" stuff on gear. Just use other abilities/be ready to, incase of a missed RS. Most "5% chance" problems I have, I keep a back up, Example: instead of glyphing my taunt, I use DG when dark command misses. Also remember str gives parry (not a lot, but as ilevel gear increases, parry is such a give me so).

How our talents are built, most specs pretty much have 100% of every viable in reach defense stat, and threat should be main concern for most your points. Gear wise, ALWAYS go for defense. Weapon always go for top dps 2 handers (if you're DW its a little different due to larger variance on weapon speed).

Just got the life stealing 2 hander...its AMAZING due to the proc. 10% of my damage is that proc, thats 300dps/hps due to it being a flat proc. To explain I mean 2.5k damage proc 1-2 times a 10 second rotation is =damage for a dps'er or a tank while my 3k dps with 100% arp would be at most 6k, where a 8k dps with 100% arp would gain more than 3k dps. I'd say its definitely best in slot weapon at the moment (due to crit/arp/haste are % based dps increases) and only weapon to compare would be the legendary and probably NOT the weapon leading to it (due to the flat proc that only legendary has). Thinking getting 1 handers from onny to see if that proc has similar effects for a DW tank.

Note on above, "Always go for defense" is more always go for defensive stats. Don't want to be responsible for DK's with 600+defense. I always go Armor>defense>dodge>parry. And more stamina is always good, its somewhere between armor and defense stat.

If you're talking about doing non-hard modes...then sure you can "Threat Cap" your dps and get away with it.
If you're trying to get the hard modes down then you best be competitive with the Pally's and Warriors out there or you won't have a job.
There's a reason there are fewer and fewer Druids tanking out there now a days and it aint cause they get trucked, they don't.


Also from a pure Threat standpoint as Blood, ARP>STR...there's a reason DPS Warriors stack it over Str these days.

Do you have proof on this? This might make sense for warriors, (I don't know) but for DK's no spec has a higher value for ArP than strength at the moment, not even blood. Taking what we know about ArP from the various DPS threads that have explored it what you are saying seems incorrect.

Earlier you stated that in the absence of a major armor debuff, you found that ArP has more direct value (I assume than strength?) this is incorrect. Armor pen is more valuable the more you stack, as noted by various statweights where armor pen rises through the roof in best in slot gear. Armor pen would be much less valuable without rogue or warrior support on a target. Given that you probably have a very very low amount of ArP to begin with, gemming it makes no sense as the stat is worth much less at lower levels and much more at higher levels. You will never reach the higher levels with gems alone, and your tank gear doesn't have ArP.

I see absolutely no reason to gem armor pen as a deathknight tank, if you want to use gem slots for additional threat strength or expertise under the soft cap is the correct choice. Am I missing something? Or is there a reason to discuss ArP further? I can't see one.

Well lets see....
14 ARP (1%) vs 14 STR on a 2450 Heart Strike (my average) using Simple ArPen calculator on an average boss
1% ARP yields an increase of .36% damage or 8.82 damage after armor is calculated
14 STR yields an increase of 7.48 damage or even with all buffs included (VTW, Kings and 10% AP) it's still only 9.6 damage (yes I included the 4% 2h talent and 9% from Bloody Veng).
Wow you're right.....or are you? The ARP increased damage is final, the STR increased damage still has to be modified by armor which btw is still well over 30% and closer to 40% without external help from sunder/expose.
So you're only getting about 65% of this as an increase.
Now lets try 140 ARP vs 140 STR
10% ARP yields an increase of 3.69% or 90.4 damage
140 STR yields an increase of about 96 more damage but again this still has to be modified by armor.

So I think you have it backwards, External ARP from sunder or expose actually helps the STR stacking DK more than the ARP stacking DK but ARP still wins and by a good 30-40% too, even if you figure in the ratio of physical damage to magic damage that you do you're still looking at ARP being about 25% higher.
STR wouldn't win or even come close untill the mob/boss was at almost 0 armor.

There really is a reason why Bliz nerfed ARP rating and are trying to get rid of it all together come Cat, it's still OP.

You did have something right tho, getting EXP to the soft cap is still #1.

I use Hit food which puts me around 6.74% melee hit and 11.43 spell hit (12.42 with a spacegoat, ) which btw is more than i need to not miss level 82's (trash as it were) and lower with spells. 15.42 with a Boomkin or s-priest on Bosses (level 83's).
In other words..I don't EVER miss on trash and I miss on bosses with either melee or magic less that 2% total which btw will be completey moot as soon as i hit revered with Ashen and replace my Ony drop armor ring with the Ashen one.

I understand the point you're making in relation to hit but you're barking up the wrong tree here, sorry.


All I know is come Hard mode ICC, i plan on out threating warriors and taking less damage than pallies. I'm not going to hold on to my tank spot just because i'm the GM, i'm going to hold my spot cause i deserve to period.
You all do what you want, i'll cya's in 2 months with 40k armor, 10-15% arp, 55k health, hit capped and as close to exp cap as gear will allow =D

Corian I think you missed the point of Kroot's post. He isn't attacking you personally, he is using you as an example of why gemming ArP is never appropriate. In addition to strength being better overall for multiple logical reasons, there is probably always going to be a better stat, in your case hit.

That is why he is saying the whole ArP gemming thing is moot, because there will simply always be a better option. Looking at the amount (lack) of expertise on ICC loot, its highely likely that expertise will be undercap at times inbetween upgrades.

I should also add that the reason hit/exp are valued/gemmed over other stats that might provide an overall DPS increase is so that you will avoid any unnecessary threat spikes. As a DK, you'll almost always see a better TPS return on non-expertise stats after you're hit-capped but with the exception of a few gimmick fights your average TPS should almost always be higher than what your DPS is capable of, assuming your raid group is filled with competent individuals. Therefore, what you are trying to avoid by gemming expertise and hit are threat "gaps" caused by missing a taunt, getting two HS in a row parried etc.

I realise what's he's saying perfectly but as i also stated the only places i'm gemming ARP is in the red slots on pieces where i'm gemming hit anyway in the yellow or green slots and keeping the 9 or better stam socket bonuses and even then i'm going with the 10ARP/15Stam gems.
So all i have actually given up is 40 dodge or parry rating for 40 ARP rating in gem slots.
Yes i'm giving up around 60stam on my weapon choice but i'm also gaining 2%+ dodge and 240 armor from the agil on it and 97 ARP rating, more than a fair trade off and like i just mentioned, I will be over hit cap once I hit revered with ashen and switch rings.

You have to look at as a whole and you'll see i'm simply maximising every aspect and i'm certainly not advocating gemming ARP over even stam on pieces with only a 6 stam socket bonus and only when you're hit capped and have a comfortable EXP level.

Just for everyones info, a smart warrior doesn't gem arp until they have so much str*. Arp is only good with a lot of pre-existing attack power. Pre toc, gemming arp wasn't done, but because "top" warriors/dps blood dk's gem arp everyone does it (whether its smart or not). Just like non def capped new tanks gem stamina, "Cause I checked the #1 tank on server and that's what he gems." Not because they are gemming to their own gear.

Here's how stats work, Str gives attack power which gives +damage per point, arp gives certain attacks x%damage (or less /% damage so). If you have a LOT of str, a multiplier is better, if your hits don't hit that hard like say a Tank then you a str's +is bigger then arps multiplier.

If you don't believe me, go to forums at around the toc patch, thats where warrirors debate gemming arp over str. Most agreed 6k+ attack power=point to gem arp. Not to metion crit and haste, you have to remember that people's "Stat comparison" is based on certain gear available/currently equipped (flat numbers are not real for stat values across the board).

Heres the dk's single target issue (almost all of our aoe is void of arp effect so), attack 1 disease (no arp bonus), attack 2 disease (no arp bonus) attacks after use arp but if you got stable aggro to attack 3 you shouldn't be having threat problems. Not to mention damage is more affected by str than arp...not to mention a miss (why Hit=bestest threat) means attack 1 or 2 are repeated and you really have low threat by the time your rotation gets to talent strikes (OB, SS, HS).

If you find that you're getting great threat with arp, show the parses cause most of us reasonably see ArP as a weak threat stat.

*fixed wording.

Lets not confuse people here, almost of all the debate for warriors about STR vs ARP is not about which to stack, it's about when to stack which. Warriors stack to the soft armor cap period THEN the real arguement starts on whether to go for the hard cap or to go str after the soft cap with an ARP proc trinket.
Also each stat has vast diff's in stat weight depending on spec, Arms or fury.

Also, last I checked Plague Strike was indeed affected by ARP and you can all but eliminate one of your non ARP affected attacks (Icey touch) right out of your rotation if you so choose with the Disease Glyph.

The info i posted early was my threat stats from all the bosses in ICC (minus the gunship) and is a very good average parse to how much of your threat is physical as blood and thus directly affected by ARP which is around 82-84%.

You want parses, heh just go tank a boss without external ARP from sunders/expose and then do the same boss with them...HUGE diff, no joke.

What I said was clear and is a bit "outdated" for end game dps but good for fresh 80 dps and I believe end game tanking. Arp is only better than str if you have a lot of attack power to make the "arp'ing" attacks worth the solid stat loss for a percentile gain.

You may now in fact be to the point of stats where arp>str, but we're at one of those points of "so?" Crit gives me better aggro than agility (even with agilities affect on armor, 5/5 bladed armor) but I don't gem crit or agility. If you want threat stats, gem hit because nothing will give bigger/more reliable threat faster. If you're hit capped and still having threat problems beyond flash aggro/aoe aggro (both of which we can agree arp does not help and I personally don't think str will help enough to gem for it), then you are doing something wrong that can be fixed or your dps outgears you too much, and if its a gear problem, survival is probably bigger issue than threat. I have ok'ish hit, but with no aggro gearing I can out aggro our paladin tank with lucky RS strings on mobs that cleave OT. Can we get off this now?

Sudden doom hitting multiple targets caught me off guard and bryntoll for me has similar proc rate and is really a nice improvement for me, so sudden doom is probably not best thing ever but is obviously not a wasted point (and I'm debating giving it a whirl). Mark of blood, 1 point who can blame ya. I just found that even when I used it as much as possible it wasnt much. 80% of a life bar over 20hits/20 seconds, too slow to be a spike absorber and too small to be a huge bonus to healers (to give you an example its less than 1/2 of anub 25 phase 3 dot tick, which yes 1 tick uses the whole thing...I've tried). My question would be what kinda threat does it put out?

Am I the only one that feels fine with long term single target aggro? Like I can do aoe and deal with the "flash" aggro issues, but they are by far my biggest issues.

Not as long as you keep debating it lol.
I have made it quite clear where when and how you can incorporate some ARP into your gear AFTER certain criteria have been met.
You keep bringing up hit over and over and that's not even a remote part of the discussion, nor is expertise.
I started this whole discussion for detailing how to smooth out your agro gen inbetween "lucky" Runestrikes or when OTing an non cleaving mob/boss while sacrificing as close to nothing as possible.
I did not start this because I was having threat issues, I just simply want more of it with smoother generation.

You're still saying in your opinion STR is better than ARP for threat as Blood without a single shred of proof or details to back it up or even tried to break apart my numbers in any constructive way showing how ARP is better by a wide margin.
You simply say STR is better and we're supposed to take your word on it, sorry I've been tanking and producing top level threat on my Warrior or DK for over 5 years now and i'll do my own math and post my ideas, my thinking behind it and how I arrived at those conclusions.
If you wanna debaate my theories or conclusions than by all means do so but you'll have to do better than "Str is better cause I say so".
The diff imo between you and I is you just want to do enough to get it done, I want to maximise every aspect including more threat and believe me my DPS is much happier that way and have been for as long as I have tanked for them all the way back to MC. Everything starts at the top and if your tanks are half assing it then everyone else starts doing the same.
Hey, maybe i'm too old school from a time when threat was one of, if not the biggest concern for a raid, maybe those days are gone but that doesn't mean i have to sit back and "hope" i'm doing enough.
I won't drop it as long as you continue to to infer i'm doing something wrong without backing it up =D

The question I have, aside from your guys' spat, is why you feel the need to gem for threat in the first place? Aside from the first 15sec of a fight where a DK is setting the foundation of his threat cycle (applying diseases), there shouldn't be a dpser that can get close on a standard fight. In the first wing of ICC there aren't any fights where sustained TPS is an issue, and pulls should be conducted with many MDs and TotT coming your way.

Looking at your armory I wonder that you aren't concerned with how low your HP is. With comparable gear I'm 3k in my frost aoe tanking spec, so it would be closer to 3.5K hp ahead. WotLK tanking is all about being alive after big hits come so you should probably be gemming all those slots with arp/stam or hit gems into pure stam.

Edit: The World of Warcraft Armory in case you want to see my profile since EJ doesn't like alt characters. seemed only fair

The "new" ICC wow isn't about taking crazy "2 shot the tank hits" any more, it's about getting hit more often but for what i have seen so far, much less.
More like what it used to be, which as far as I'm concerned means that armor will play a bigger role in "effective" health than your actual health pool does.
Another thing i have noticed is the over healing on my Deathstrikes has gone way down in ICC due to getting hit more regularly. It's kind of a bonus seeing it being that much more effective compared to before and it actually really steadies your health loss now covering almost all of any one boss hit by itself.
If I do encounter a fight that requires a bigger health pool, I have the 245 Satrina trinket and my 245 pvp weapon bringing in close to 300 more stam to the table and would push me close to 58k after all is said and done =D
I still hit around 54k raid buffed but I also have right about 70% armor midigation and plan on jacking that up as close to 72% as I can full time, then with the new ring proc and indestructable pots pushing me close to armor cap a good portion of the time.
I pop VB pretty regular while also cycling through my trinket CD's and am pretty excited about eventually getting the t10 4 piece adding another minute cooldown 12% damg redct@10 secs with Blood Tap, which i pretty much use on CD as it is =D
I usually keep IBF back as my oh shit button.

As far as dps catching me...uhh yeah i have a couple of mages and a lock that ride any and every tank's ass and pretty much the more threat you do, the more damage they do. All 3 of them are capable of cracking 10k dps while barely blinking an eye. Yes they use their threat reduction CD's but the longer they can go without the better.
Besides I like being pushed and they know it, our warrior tank on the other hand doesn't like it so much and it scares the shit of him lol but hey most warriors and pallies are pretty lazy these days with all the silver platters they're being served with.
Hell, anytime i dust my warriors prot spec off to do some 5 man's I actually laugh out loud at how much of a joke it is compared to what i "grew up" on.

While the early bosses (sans Deathwhisper) do a ton of melee damage, I'm more concerned that the first wing are all people have in mind when discussing gearing for armor. It's yet to be seen how important the ability to take a lot of magic damage will be in later wings.

I'm also unconvinced regarding ArP vs. Strength as a blood strength stat. I've to see anyone reference a sim to build evidence in favor of either stat.