I'm curious if you ever got a response on the official forums for this? As of yesterday we're still not getting any necrosis hits off of rune strike. Log snippet below of rune strikes/necrosis.
My post on the official forums was deleted shortly after I posted it, got 2-3 responses and then it disappeared.
But we can assume that it has come to their awareness and since the new (korean) Patch notes do not say anything about it, we can also assume that it is "working as intended". (Or harder to fix than we think)
Why would the 12% DR stack additively with your armor DR?
All of these kinds of effects just multiply through. Armor, Frost Presence, Blade Barrier, Blessing of Sanctuary, Icebound Fortitude and now that set bonus are all just multiplied against the base hit and whatever is left over is your damage taken. It's a good cooldown if they add any Plasma Blast or Flame Breath mechanics, otherwise I'd prefer the Paladin +12% dodge if I had a choice.
Depending on the actual stats of the new pieces I still may ignore the set pieces, if the CD isn't necessary for some fight gimmick then an averaged DR may still lose out to superior mundane stats. Although at this point I"m just trying to rationalize the loss of 95 badges, since I bought the Cata BP (and was about to buy the gloves!).
Well, we already kind of have things along those lines: Festergut third inhale, Putricide P3, DBS' frenzy, and I'm sure Sindragosa will have something along the lines of a Deep Breath as well. You're right though, average damage reduction from base stats on the off pieces MIGHT be better than the CD from the 4pc. However, I'm almost 100% sure (and there was a mention of it in the blue about the changes) that the 277 T10 will be better than the badge pieces. It's a tough call if you're in a situation where you may not have access to the 277's. If you only run 10's, the badge pieces will probably always be better. If you're cleaning ToGC 25 on alts, the the T10 is likely the way to go (since you can likely get the 277's).
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Well, we already kind of have things along those lines: Festergut third inhale, Putricide P3, DBS' frenzy, and I'm sure Sindragosa will have something along the lines of a Deep Breath as well. You're right though, average damage reduction from base stats on the off pieces MIGHT be better than the CD from the 4pc. However, I'm almost 100% sure (and there was a mention of it in the blue about the changes) that the 277 T10 will be better than the badge pieces. It's a tough call if you're in a situation where you may not have access to the 277's. If you only run 10's, the badge pieces will probably always be better. If you're cleaning ToGC 25 on alts, the the T10 is likely the way to go (since you can likely get the 277's).
However something that hasn't been discussed is use of Blood Tap as something outside of a cooldown. I often use Blood Tap for snap Heart Strikes, Vampiric Bloods or to generate Runic Power. Having that extra 12% would be nice but people are discussing it like it's an extra cooldown, I'm not sure if the value gained from it will be quite as straight forward as for example Icebound Fortitude is.
Gravity posted an excellent point-by-point threat comparison blood talents which rates Necrosis the highest, followed by Subversion and then sudden doom. To the best of my knowledge the version of Kahorie's simulator used did not factor in the updated Necrosis behaviour.
Based on an early Saurfang parse of mine around 43% of my melee attacks are Rune Strikes and thus would not proc Necrosis. This will increase when not fighting in ICC due to the increased dodge.
Looking at the updated T10[Gauntlets of the Kraken] are going to be a fair way behind the tier gloves however [Cataclysmic Chestguard] is debatable, it was a fair source of expertise before and there don't seem to be many more options for expertise.
I forgot to add that Gauntlets of the Kraken are changing slightly as well:
Updated Vendor Armor
Gauntlets of the Kraken
2658 Armor
120 Strength
157 Stamina
Red Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +9 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 63.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 48.
So at 264 they should have the same armour level but you'll have a choice of parry rating vs hit(and set bonus). The upside is that if you recently purchased the Gauntlets you're getting a little free upgrade until you choose to trade them in for a pair of t10.
My gear choices are definitely being limited around the expertise choices we have. If I wanted to try and attain the 4/5 T10 and still remain expertise capped without gemming (or very little).
Assuming we wanted to use only ICC gear.
From the list on the first post. Pre-Heroic BiS options are:
Actually, it's 8.2 Expertise Rating per Expertise.
For those of us who already acquired chest and gloves, it will probably still be more wise to upgrade the other pieces first. By the time we've gathered enough emblems, Heroic ICC will most likely be unlocked, and not to mention all the unknown loot from Arthas.
I prefer getting whatever item totals in the biggest upgrade than getting the items that are BiS just cause they're BiS.
Eventually we'll get flooded with emblems, and we can never know how lucky we get with boss drops, so I don't really see the problem or need to plan ahead so strictly.
Your gear choices should be based on what fits your current gear the best, not what item is considered BiS.
Then take T10 Hands, Shoulders, Helm. This opens up the ability to choose any weapon we want, remain expertise soft capped, and get the T10 4/5 bonus.
Have I missed anything?
You've missed the fact that the legs slot is dominated by [Pillars of Might] and that you don't need to be fully expertise capped.
Expertise is only a threat stat, although you need a fair amount of it survival should be the foremost aim, stacking armor stamina and maintaining a reasonable amount of avoidance.
The boots are by far the best choice but Cataclysmic Chestguard is now slightly more inferior to it's tier counterpart.
I think that DKs will need to use an expertise weapon to even the gap.
It's not only threat stat, it's been shown to have an average of 46% of the value of avoidance (per rating), for DKs in ICC, in terms of reducing incoming damage (value depends on swing speed of boss).
First, do you expect the re-itemization to change the BiS list? I would expect that the 277 will be BiS over the badge stuff for just about all builds now.
Second, the [Unidentifiable Organ]: how good is it? I just got it and intend to use it over [Glyph of Indomitability], primarily because it has more armor, and more generally because I feel even the averaged value of the proc is better than the on use. I have a feeling that the BiS list showing it was built with the expectation that the proc would have a higher uptime, but I'm not sure.
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It's not only threat stat, it's been shown to have an average of 46% of the value of avoidance (per rating), for DKs in ICC, in terms of reducing incoming damage (value depends on swing speed of boss).
Maintankadin has proven that the large majority of bosses with a large threat to survival do not have parry haste enabled. Source
Admittedly, I was rather harsh in my statement it was not useful for anything other than threat. However, you will not suffer from a lack of survivability if you do not stack expertise.
Since the bosses hit for less than in other places, I was thinking a higher effective health that blood provides would be a better idea than the mitigation that frost gives.
I've read all the posts, studied what i can but dont want to spend the gold without some other input..
So, in succinct form, what is the best tank build for stating ICC progression?
This is inaccurate and wrong. The hits you take in ICC are of a smaller size with a much higher frequency. Total damage taken is significantly higher than previous raids, and favours mitigation over health pool, which is the exact opposite of what you suggest. ToGC favoured avoidance as any hit would take you to death's door if it got through. ICC's much higher frequency means avoiding every bit of damage incoming is highly superior compared to it's status in 3.2.
There is no "best tanking build". In the future I'd also urge you to ask this kind of question in the Simple Questions thread, as it doesn't contribute to the Endgame Tanking discussion that this thread is for.
Second, the [Unidentifiable Organ]: how good is it? I just got it and intend to use it over [Glyph of Indomitability], primarily because it has more armor, and more generally because I feel even the averaged value of the proc is better than the on use. I have a feeling that the BiS list showing it was built with the expectation that the proc would have a higher uptime, but I'm not sure.
I've been using [Unidentifiable Organ] for a while and it's not that great for boss fights.
It's decent. The obvious problem is uptime; most of the fights we've seen so far have elements of tank swapping or other stack-breaking mechanics (Blood Queen air phase, Putricide taking trips to the lab, Bone Storm, etc.). Toss in avoidance, the 60% proc rate and the meager 10s duration and you'll see this stamina falling off a lot.
Nevertheless, it will perform well under some circumstances and I plan to pick one up.
There is, or was, a thread on the main WoW tanking forums detailing something similar about it. My feelings are this though: ICC generally favors mitigation for far, and the Organ has a huge amount of armor on it. The stacking portion is, undoubtedly, unreliable, but I feel like most people expected this to stack to 240stam and stay up the entire fight (which I believe would have put it way over budget). When I was deciding, I felt like the proc from that was more valuable than the on-use of Glyph.
More generally: Someone did the math on it over on the WoW forums, and I can't cite my source (can't find it), but the proc worked out to an average of ~100stam.
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There is, or was, a thread on the main WoW tanking forums detailing something similar about it. My feelings are this though: ICC generally favors mitigation for far, and the Organ has a huge amount of armor on it. The stacking portion is, undoubtedly, unreliable, but I feel like most people expected this to stack to 240stam and stay up the entire fight (which I believe would have put it way over budget). When I was deciding, I felt like the proc from that was more valuable than the on-use of Glyph.
More generally: Someone did the math on it over on the WoW forums, and I can't cite my source (can't find it), but the proc worked out to an average of ~100stam.
Since ICC favors mitigation, would using both Armor trinkets be better than other combos?
The uptime of the Organ is encounter dependent so there isn't an easy way to say this Organ's stack is worth 100 stamina. Also the average uptime can be deceptive since because of tank swapping when the stack is down it may not matter much.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Since ICC favors mitigation, would using both Armor trinkets be better than other combos?
The uptime of the Organ is encounter dependent so there isn't an easy way to say this Organ's stack is worth 100 stamina. Also the average uptime can be deceptive since because of tank swapping when the stack is down it may not matter much.
Considering no fight atm is a real EH stressing fight (at least imo, maybe Festergut at 3 stacks, but even then some easy cooldown chaining makes tankdamage trivial, even Putri P3 isn't that scary). Any trinket that either mitigates or avoids damage prolly wins out.
That said, im not sure if healers will really heal you less, they will probably just overheal more.
I've always liked Unholy, so even though Blood is the FotM spec, I tried Unholy tanking in ICC-10 this week.
Not many people showed up, and we were really short on healers, so we ended up two-healing the run with one experienced, geared tree, and one tree who is undergeared for healing and almost always plays feral.
For tanking, the most obvious buff Unholy brings is Bone Shield, so I thought I'd share my experiences with it. For the most part, I had it up before pulls, but didn't constantly refresh it, instead saving it as an "oh crap" button, like you'd do for the same button in the other trees.
I found it works well, and it has one major advantage in the tank-swap fights.
On Festergut, I was the 2nd tank. I had Bone Shield up when I went in, and the bones weren't at all used up by the Gaseous Blight ticks. That meant that when I taunted, I had 4 bones running. They lasted me approx 12s (6 hits from Festergut), and since I'd started them long ago, I was able to put up Bone Shield immediately. The second set of bones lasted me 9 seconds, during which I took 7 hits. As soon as they dropped, I put up IBF for another 12s of damage reduction. That meant, all told, I got 35s of reduced damage from Festergut without using trinkets.
When he cast Pungent Blight, I used AMS, completely absorbing the 9k Pungeant Blight hit, as well as the damage from the next Gastric Bloat and Gaseous Blight hits.
For kiting on Rotface, Unholy was really nice. Bone Shield was up almost the whole time (except when I got infected then had a little ooze hitting me), and when I had to kite the big ooze through a big puddle, AMS soaking 100% of the damage for a bit helped the healers out a lot.
We knew we didn't have the healing to try Prof P, the princes or the queen, so we stopped there, but it was a decent look at how Unholy fares.
Basically, as an "oh crap" button, Bone Shield is good, but perhaps not as good as Vamp Blood, however on tank swap fights, or fights where you can put up Bone Shield and let the cooldown expire without losing any bones, it really shines since you can chain 2 of them back-to-back.
If you're tanking heroics as unholy, glyph DnD. You pretty much don't need to do anything other than drop it to maintain solid threat. If you're bored you can do other stuff.
Personally by the time I've got the 264 ilvl gear I'll have reached 596 def skill, which is past the point where I need to pull 2 points out of the talent, and the 3rd is only giving me 0.7% miss to bring me to the hard cap.
How good is the testing that all these things contribute to a 16% hard cap on miss?
I know that the DR on miss approaches a cap of 16%. That doesn't necessarily imply that effects unaffected by DR couldn't drive your miss over 16%. The only thing I've seen on the issue is the testing done by Whitetooth which is all based on having a really insane difference in defense over what is attacking him. Although he showed that the defense from level difference isn't affected by DR but contributes to the cap.
At the very least, I would be very surprised if insect swarm/scorpid sting contribute to the cap, as they affect the mobs chance to hit rather than the tanks chance to miss. A dual wielding mob isn't affected by a 16% cap on miss, so it seems logical to me that a IS'd one isn't either.
I could be wasting my time if there's more testing I'm not aware of, but running down the potential situations:
Everything that possibly generates miss including IS counts towards a 16% hard cap. That's quickness(2%) + FD(3%) + stoneskin gargoyle(1%) + IS(3%) + base(5%) leaving just 2% to be made up by your non-stoneskin garg defense which would happen at 475 + 55 = 530 defense, so your first point was partially wasted the moment you stepped into naxx.
Everything but IS counts towards a 16% hard cap. That leaves 5% to be made up by your defense from gear. That's at 475 + 174 = 649 defense skill. That's a hittable cap but still pretty high.
Anything less than that counts towards the hard cap, or you're not a night elf means the miss cap is unreachably high.
By my count with everything in the first example counting towards a 16% cap 603 defense is the point at which 2% of your frigid deathplate is wasted for a night elf, or defense is capped out for miss for anyone else. I don't see that 596 is already .3% over that cap.
I'd want to see some better info than I have before I'd drop points in avoidance for little bits of extra threat. All it takes is debuffs on the boss not counting towards a hard cap on your avoidance and the cap gets higher than you're gonna hit in reasonable ICC gear.
Looks like the Bryntroll tweak affects more than just Necrosis for DK tanking. I tanked FoS 'Hilt farm over the weekend and barely broke 3.5k DPS with the Frost DnD build where I used to do 4.5k to 5k DPS routinely. A quick glance at the logs revealed that my HB was critting at a ~20% clip where it was critting at a ~85% clip before.
After some testing, 'twas found that RS was not proc'ing KM any longer. This of course represents quite a substantial nerf to traditional OB Frost builds as well. DW versions are affected less than 2H versions due to the lower "auto attack cost," but we are still talking about quite a substantial threat (and DPS) loss, equivalent to ~2-3 FS loss per rotation.
01/26/10, 4:44 AM
