Only thing i can think of is if you are spec'd into 2/2 Imp Blood Presence.

well looked at your armory and no imp blood. IDK maybe your special.

Looks like you got all the cool CD's from blood tree and also the raid buffs from both frost and blood tree's. IMO your threat is gonna suk bad but if its just to play around with who cares right.

Alright so with the hit of 3.2 I know that FS is now not as op as it was...So then for a frost tank is exp more important than hit or they about even? Also I know the soft cap is 6.50%(?) but if FS can be parried now too should I keep getting exp and at what point is it not worth it?

Referring to the experimental build, by th3dunadan, I beleive it has some logical errors. You say it's purpose is the raid utility of IIT, among other buffs, but if you have the glyph of Disease and use it's effect to refresh diseases by Pestilence, how will you ever get to use IT efficiently and therefore get the IIT effect to your group?
Also, you tagged all 3 points in Glacier Rot, but you don't really get anything from it with this build - you don't get to use IT on a diseased target, since you start the pull with it (and bosses get a disease only after you pull them) and you refresh diseases with Pest, you don't have either HB or FS available, so those 3 points are a waste. There are also 2 points that are spent on improving range on IT by 10 yards, which isn't really that much useful for anything, other than trash pulls, but trash in WotLK is a joke, compared to TBC trash and besides all that, there are 2 single-target spells that are of 30 yard range - DG which can do the hard work of bringing an annoying caster right next to you and DC, which is just one more short-CD taunt.
This build also lacks any kind of RP dump - the damage of DC isn't going to be impressive, there is no FS, if you are tanking 10mans/HCs you won't have impressive avoidance so RS won't happen that often. RP will be wasted.
Speaking of strikes that will be used, everything comes down to OB and BS, which are far away from being empowered by talents, since OB is missing GoG, while BS is missing BotN and Bloody Strikes.
I beleive the idea of being a party-buff-provider is nice, but I think this build needs, at least, a new glyph or some talent point corrections to avoid pure potential being wasted.

Hey there, first post, long time reader.

Anyway, I've been tanking U25 and the like for a while now. I started out with a frost build at the beginning of last patch, played around with a blood build for a while, and generally found both somewhat unsatisfactory. Frost is a good, well balance build, but feels overly simplistic and lacking a lot of tanking tools, with the tree's cooldown being better used for threat than anything else. I understand the considerable EH and self healing the blood builds provide, but either because of the healing situation in my guild (healers were really unhappy with the amount of damage I was taking, and the EH consideration was moot as they could keep me up regardless).

Since then I've been playing around with a build I haven't seen any representation for, Unholy/Frost Hybrid The rotation is normal Unholy, with Death Strikes replacing Scourge as needed.

I've always liked the Bone Shield mechanic, especially in that it allows Avoidance stacking and somewhat compensates for the lack of EH with the 20% damage buffer. Which is, in a nutshell, the point of the build - stacking avoidance, hence frigid dreadplate. To really pull off the build I also needed to change around gearing, with only enough +stam as needed until I wasn't in significant danger of getting 1 or 2 shot. Obviously that was a bit easier before the patch, but it's not been a huge concern since either. Most big hits, in Ulduar at least, can be mitigated rather than outright absorbed - and as unholy, AMZ and imp. AMS make this easier.

The 3rd disease from unholy is the other main point of the build - granting the 15% Death Strike, even with blood's self healing from the strike. I never really managed more than napkin math to the point, but it also seems like against a single target Death Strike generates as much threat as Scourge Strike, assuming it actually heals the full amount. It's worked well in practice, and the combination of reducing incoming damage with a load of avoidance and bone shield with the kind of self healing is extremely vicious. Death Strike is also particularly useful in leveling out damage spikes from a string of melee hits - though healers still sometimes panic, and it takes a great deal of focus and careful timing to quickly respond to a spike. Usually I find myself spamming scourge strike regardless, RNG is a bitch sometimes but usually it does behave.

Originally the build didn't include points in the ghoul pet (I was already very concerned with my threat output, but after testing threat seemed fine so I decided to try it), but I've kept them to keep Death Pact ready whenever needed, which has saved my ass a number of times.

For all that this was an experiment a few months ago, it's since become my primary tanking build for all occasions. Our guild downed Vezax while I tanked with this build, and my healers marveled at how little damage I was taking. I'm thoroughly convinced that it is an entirely viable way for Deathknights to tank, with a certain amount of care to reach a certain level of EH. Threat in this build has never been a problem, though it is my biggest concern for the future.

Edit: Updated the build linked with 3.2 template

I noticed that the cookie-cutter Blood spec has been altered slightly since a week or two ago. I was wondering if the single-target rotation shown in the OP isn't outdated? I would think with DRM, the single target rotation would include more Heart Strikes, otherwise what's the point of getting it?

Something like: IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-DS-HS-HS-HS-HS

First of all, you're using the old tree to showcase that build. I think using your line of thinking, the new 3.2 version would look something like this.

I find it an interesting, out of the box type of build but I have some questions.

First, is this the build you've been tanking Uld 25 with? If so, you've never had threat problems? Ever? And have you tanked Uld 25 post patch 3.2 after the changes to the Unholy tree?

Secondly, if you notice the build I linked I moved a few talents around. I couldn't quite figure why you took Annihilation. By your own admission you want to use SS and DS, OB seems to not be used. Why take 3 points into the talent just for the extra crit chance? It seems taking the haste talent is the better investment, rather then taking Annihilation and RPM. Besides, Icy Talons makes such a great synergy with Necrosis it seemed like a better fit.

The Bone Shield idea is pretty good, but it seems you're reaching pretty deep into the Frost tree for a 3% avoidance increase.

Because of this, you forgo the threat talent that is Rage of Rivendare. In fact you have no native expertise coming from any tree whatsoever. Granted, most top end gear itemizes for exp so this is probably less of a concern. The 10% less damage however, could be. Which got me thinking about a Mainly Blood/Unholy build with the same Unholy tree, and taking VotTW with 5 toughness and 2 ITT in frost. But I digress....

I think the loss of SoB (usually a tanking staple) is offset by the gain of both Dirge and Chill of the Grave. So I'm less concerned that its not present but you don't have Bladed Armor, which (correct me if I'm wrong, please) still is one of the top threat talents for tanks.

I moved points out of the ghoul as points into Desolation seemed a better investment for threat. Tying up 3 points for perma-ghoul just in case you need a Death Pact seems a bit dicey to me.

I'm not sure AMZ is a necessity as there are not many points to frivolously spend on things. However, I took the 3 points out of AMS and put them in Impurity to increase threat. Those points could just as easily go back into AMS if it is indeed a necessary talent.

I've never tanked Unholy before, but would the 2 points in Two Hand Spec be better served in something like Ebon Plague and WP? Or does the 4% increase outweigh a point into both of those talents?

It's an interesting idea Kaldr, but I'm honestly shocked by the fact that you don't have threat issues with that build (and 208 hit/20 expertise). Using the standard Unholy spec (which should, in theory, put out way more threat), I had trouble sticking ahead of other tanks and outpacing our DPS (especially the meow-meows). It just seems like a huge loss of threat (and raid buff, considering the lack of EP) for 3% avoidance that doesn't even proc Rune Strike. I'm also surprised you're using the Black Heart (EH instead of avoidance) and a couple armor rings (same).

I'm also using a few more +stam gems than I'd necessarily like to. For reference, with that trinket/those gems I'm at about 40k health fully buffed - not alot at all. I'd go lower if I thought I could pull it off, but I got bursted pretty bad in coliseum before I made those changes, and I'm trying to maintain a healthy buffer while we're on progression content.

Anyway, to justify Frigid Dreadplate - yes, it's 3% miss. 3% non-DR miss which becomes more and more valuable as avoidance is stacked and increases Bone Shield up time. It makes a tangible difference, even if it isn't that easy to see. And, what I'm sacrificing for it is threat, which is exactly the point. WotLK's made it a lot easier for tanks to generate and hold threat, and as I'm currently not having trouble, my build's successfully cashing in on the ease of threat to pull off extra survivability. The raid buff is kind of a moot point considering our usual raid structure. We always have a boomkin with us, and at worst we have a number of locks who could apply it, though with some loss of DPS.

As far as why my threat isn't a problem - I don't know what to tell you. I don't really understand it myself. I know on principle I'm rune-striking more often, with around 50% of my melee hits being converted. Black Ice from frost undoubtedly offsets some of the loss and is rarely taken by unholy tanks to my knowledge.

I want to make some remarks based on some recurring themes in here and in the general WoW community regarding this topic.
[Nothing is directed to anything specific in here]

1st, some stats being suggested as "needed" are impossible to be reached. They are impossible to be reached not because it's technically impossible, but it's impossible without sacrificing way more powerfull stats. For example, I read people constantly suggesting to Tanks to be hit capped. Some even go as far as saying to be spell hit capped. That's laughably impossible. I can see a T8.5 gear set having - base - hit on melee at about 2.5-3% only. Reaching even 8% seems an impossible undertaking without sacrifcing enormous amounts of stamina, or sometimes not even reaching the defence cap. It goes without saying trying to reach spell hit cap is simply comedic.

2nd, agility is being ignored enormously. This is a stat that gives, a) Crit, which is never diminished in PvE., b) Very generous amounts of Dodge. Gemming +stamina +agility on red slots seems an impressively good idea even if they are not "needed" for a meta - when also a gem bonus is in place.

3rd, similarly, +stam +hit on yellow slots is a generous offer to a tank that is starving for hit before 8%. Don't forget, before 8% - the most common case for most tanks - hit is an even more powerful stat since it bufs EVERY attack without exception.

[Both Agility and Hit rating when it gets specifically to their Threat Generation attributes, are not restricted to single targets. Before soft hit cap both even buf every single attack available. This is critically important to AOE tanking, where Expertise will simply be nearly useless for threat generation but also when it gets to single targets, the threat utility provided is not limited to AOE. Experitise is even diminished in Single-targetting by having several attacks, notably Death and Decay, not getting any advantage from Expertise. i.e. We're not Warriors. Even strength would be probably more beneficial though its low mitigation makes it worse than agility].

4th and most importantly, stamina drooling, same old stamina drooling. This topic is the one that grinds my gears most of all. It has been correctly established that stamina is an enormously important stat to tanks. This stems primarily from its "utility" advantage - and not strictly simulation math - of having a big pool of health to deal with hard hitting bosses and "unlucky mitigation". Stamina therefore, indeed has to be gemmed/enchanted always before everything else that can get in its place *on the same terms*. However, it has to be ignored if the alternative makes a good balance. For example, ilevel 219+ avoidance trinkets being deleted in favor of Essence of Gossamer (which has a proc stat that is simply insignificant to anything beyond a pre-3.2 heroic)? Ignoring completely any threat and avoidance stats and stat bonuses just because you'll get +4 more stamina? Those are dangerous choices that threaten to make you a sponge of damage reception and low threat generation.

['Cause this is where most people are heading after randomly googling about this topic. "Gem stamina always, ignore mitigation and threat" is the recuring theme that rings in my ears as a result of reading what people are mostly talking about and seems to be the 'average' these days.].

You're just a little bit off-base.

It isn't difficult to reach melee hit cap in tanking gear (indeed, I had to actively edit my armor to keep from exceeding melee hit cap too badly -- at one point in early Ulduar I had something like 11% hit). Asking tanks to have 8% hit is absolutely not "impossible without sacrificing needed stats", and I've never seen anyone here recommend going for the spell hit cap.

Agility is not a valuable tanking stat compared to most other tanking stats, for us. It gives less dodge per point than dodge rating while still being affected by diminishing returns and the armor gain is negligible at best. The crit gain is alright, but DKs in general aren't all that concerned by threat, and strength is a better threat stat anyway. Agility suffers from serious jack-of-all-trades problems as a tank.

Again, no tank should be starving for hit. It isn't difficult to hit 8% hit cap. There's no need to gem for hit.

Finally, no one here has ever advocated using Essence of Gossamer over Ulduar-level trinkets. That's a ludicrous assertion.


In short, your post is not relevant to these forums. It might be relevant to the official WoW forums, but it's really off-base here.