kniteblade

I don't see any talents that give you avoidance on this spec. And on top of that, I would move UB, CE, and Master of Ghouls into grabbiong WoN, because you should have enough aggro with D&D. Alternatively, if you dont want to grab WoN, I would move the 2 points off Master of ghouls and CE into any of the other talents in unholy, I would personally go for 2% more strenght or finish necropolis (master of ghouls does nothing for you in this spec, and I'm not a fan of CE).

 

Sinlore

I just dont really see the point in WoN especially after the 15 sec ICD...

For instance if you were tanking and got hit for 8k bringing you below 35% thats only 1200 damage that you saved. Even for bigger numbers, a 17k hit would only save around 2500 damage. You can literally DS and heal yourself for that much, and your healers should be on top of things so that small damage isnt even going to matter.

MoG doesnt do anything, that should be moved and while a lot of people arent fans of CE I grabbed it because its only 1 point and there isnt a whole lot else to put in. Albeit you could go for more ST TPS if you really wanted. UB isnt really needed but again somethin nice to have, of course you can always switch for some more ST TPS...

Thanks for the feedback, looking forward to more.

 

Noorm

In light of the nerf to BA I'm thinking a fairly vanilla blood tanking spec will be the best for Sarth +3D. If you're looking for the absolute best, something like 54/8/9 would be ideal. This gives a ~27% mitigation to each of sarth's breaths, and also gives you Spell Deflection and Veteran of the Third War. Since BA is on a 2 minute cooldown it's far less useful for surviving the breaths. It is better than VB, but it's not worth loosing WotN IMO.

However the differences between the above build and most of the general blood builds is very slight, only most people wont be taking Improved Icy Touch, and many will skip Spell Deflection or Improved Blood Tap. If your primary tanking build happens to be blood, than I doubt you'd need to respec. In fact, fights like Sarth 3D seem to be the motivation for deep blood builds.

For Naxx, your right, but those numbers are low for Ulduar. I don't think any boss hits for as little as 8k except on things like dots. Hodir's melee swings reportedly hit for about 25k on plate tanks, and that's while he's not using his frost buff. For hits in the 30-40k range, which do not appear to be unusual in light of what I've seen so far, WotN can be the difference between life and death. And Blood is all about survivability.

 

Mercci

Well with the new patch i'd change MoM to WotN unless you expect a really high crit chance. CE and MoG can go into Ravenous dead or 2 more points in Necrosis.

Also will need to take another look at spell deflection with the buff you could take points out of subversion and place them into there and Mark of Blood - DeathStrike changes should counter any loss you make on TPS.

 

Noorm

In light of the changes I think most blood builds will invest heavily in the blood tree. Especially considering the change to Vicious Strikes, which makes it largely useless for blood builds.

 

Mercci

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...7&version=9684

Something like that maybe?

DnD -> IT -> PS -> HS -> DS -> RP
Im bad at rotations before i test them but i'd imagine something like that too. Glyphs would be as on there VB and DS with the third a toss up between Rune strike, icy touch and UB.

Scent of Blood or even Butchery may be worth more than 2H specialisation when it comes to RP generation (still waiting for them to do something with SoB) but as far as blood goes thats how i would probably take it. Sudden doom and morbidity provide a nice threat boost and there will be a nice chunk of self healing aswell as a big healthpool.

Downsides will probably be avoidance (FD) and some mitigation on magical damage that both unholy and now frost (UA change + FP) have a fair bit of.

Also looking at the 4 set: Anti-magic shell also grants you 10% reduction to physical damage taken.

Looks like we are starting to level out in terms of tanking ability - still some way to go but not crying too much over BB anymore!

 

Orlgin

It seems like Blood will generate a lot more threat with Death Strike being the primary strike over Obliterate. Not only does it do good damage but the healing will generate 1/2 the healed amount in threat. If Frost Presence multiplies the threat generated by healing as well as damage, I imagine that Blood tanks will be thrilled by the change.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Illundai

Is anyone getting pretty annoyed by the ability to spec so very specific into magic mitigation? I really don't want to respec for Sarth v2.0 every week to get the most magic mitigation just because my main tanking spec doesn't pick up Spell Deflection or Magic Suppression. -_-

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Kaejin

I've been annoyed by it ever since I started tanking Sarth for my guild. Thankfully most of these nerfs diminish the need for that as the four tanks come closer to parity. However, IBF and AMS are the two main reasons we make such great Sarth tanks because of the low cooldowns they have, so we're still going to end up doing it unless they change those (not that I really want them to).

Hopefully the next Sarth will have something unique that isn't a giant magical bulldozer. That way things won't be tipped so far in favor of forcing magic mitigation specs, and DKs in particular.

 

Pyros

Don't know, even if you go for an extreme blood with 2/3 frigid dreadplate, you still have points to spend in spell deflection that can't really be spent in anything much better. I mean the way I look at it, you choose between Death Rune Mastery, Subversion or Spell Deflection. Subversion would be a rather low threat increase, especially with Death Strike and the fact in a frigid build you don't get MoM. DRM looks very useless in a tanking build, I'd rather Death Strike every rotation than Heart Strike 4times in a row for a small threat increase(if it's even better, I'm unsure without MoM and subversion). Then you can choose Spell Deflection, which has been buffed a bit, and works on tons of stuff really. 20% chance to cut magic dmg in half is pretty nice.

As for unholy side, I'm unsure and a bit lazy to check the builds, but I'd assume for 3points it's not a big loss either, and it also boosts AMS and opens AMZ which well is more magic mitigation I guess. Still seems ok though especially since I seem to remember those tiers in unholy were very worthless while tanking, stuff like desecration.

I don't know, I see myself getting spell deflection in any build really, unless I actually need to make a full threat blood build for whatever reason. If you don't go the Frigid way, you even have more points to spend in blood, I'm not even sure it'll be worth it, those 2% avoidance come at such a huge threat cost, 3/4 of the points in frost are worthless fillers, unless you take the windfury line stuff. But really in the end, it's 3points for more mitigation that doesn't work all the time, vs more threat, so unless you're hurting on threat, there's no reason not to take them.

 

Kaejin

I guess I kind of assumed the subject was bizarre hybrid specs like the agonizingly-low-TPS sarth 3d unholy/blood hybrid spec in the OP, meant to max HP and magic mitigation/cooldowns.

Gimmick specs that are useless for anything else like that are distressing. Three points (Spell Deflection, Acclimation, Magic Suppression) of difference from your normal tanking spec don't really bug me. I was actually considering including Acclimation in my normal tanking spec since Ulduar seems to have enough situations where it would be useful.

 

Volrath50

I'm really liking the blood changes, at the moment. I'm currently blood for tanking, but with the changes, it moves much more into the self-healing aspects of the tree. I'm considering something along the lines of:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...7&version=9684

61/5/5

I'm really interested in seeing how Bloodworms are now. There was some note that said they heal more. Depending on how that is they might actually be useful. Additionally, there's always a chance they'll get aggro on a lose mob and tank it for a hit, heh. Then again, every time I see a DK with them, they always seem to run across the room to some unrelated mob, so they might be a liability. Of course, if they still suck (which they probably will) those points can go to Imp Blood Aura, Morbidity or Epidemic. But overall, I'll probably spec for some sort of self-healing tank build, if it works well enough.

But I do really like how Blizzard is making Death Strike a viable Obliterate replacement. Death Strike fits quite well with the feel of the blood tree. I love the image in my mind of a tank ripping his enemy apart, biting into him, drinking his blood, eating his flesh, and getting healed that way.

"As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgement, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."

 

majk

With regards to the latest build (Build 9684) does anyone see an alternative to deep Frost (43p+) when it comes down to best overall mitigation/avoidance?

- 6s longer IF
- 2% added DR through IFP
- UA as DR & added avoidance
- FD for -3% melee hit

I just dont see anything competing with this atm unless its a boss/encounter which strays a lot from the "norm". Am I missing something?

 

Ashur25

Those last 2 points aren't points for a frost tank, you can get FD (at least 2/3) as blood too and UA is by far the worst of the 36pt talents (and doesn't give Avoidance anymore other than through strength which is very little)

 

Mercci

Blood has so much to offer in terms of tanking now, i think the only spec that suffers from the patch are deep unholy builds. Even then they still offer fantastic spell damage reduction and high tps with scourgestrike improvements and UB.

The downside to all these changes is i think many Dks will be using 2x tank specs in their dual-spec arrangement that will depend on each fight.

 

Illundai

I'm very inclined to speccing deep Frost which is what I'm on about. I was thinking something along these lines:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9684

Something I put together quickly. I picked Acclimation for specific fights (Hodir/Iron Council hardmode) but it's useless otherwise. Those are 3 points I can put into Bladed Armor for more threat or even Scent of Blood if they decide to buff it (like they hinted a week or so ago). That's my problem. However, again you can drop points from threat if there is some crazy fight which would require it (like Sarth10+3) and you could spec like this...

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9684

Which just plain pisses me off. I'd much rather have if they removed these sort of talents because the min/maxer like I am I will respec to make a fight a lot easier... and it's annoying.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Fog

Looking at your first spec, in my opinion you made some wrong choices. Bladed Armor is one of the best threat talents we have and it's miles ahead of Subversion. Don't get me wrong, I like Subversion aswell so I would trade the points in Acclimation to maximize Bladed Armor.

Acclimation is usually a skipped talent as the buff it provides can come from other places (such as Paladin auras even if at a reduced rate). It shouldn't be needed although it can make a couple of fights easier. Point is, there is nothing in current content that needs it and I seriously doubt there will be anything that needs it in Ulduar, as there isn't nothing even close to that for other tanks or even other specs and Blizzard has definately moved away from the class/spec specific tank for fight X or Y. Usually the buffs provided by raid members are more than enough to make damage healable and I'm not even sure this will stack with the provided buffs.

After juggling with the talent calculator for several hours it pains me that there aren't much alternatives to this:

Frost Tank Build

Only alternatives are possibly skipping Subversion and putting Epidemic (plus one random point) or in case they buff Scent of Blood, switching points there (extra Runic Power means more FS and it can make up for less crit on OB).

My point is, the Frost tree has been brought to a state where it doesn't allow flexibility. I can't think of any other good Frost Tank builds, unless you spec only for Raid bosses (meaning you wouldn't go pick up HB). Since not many tanks will sacrifice their aoe tanking capabilites that much, I doubt we will be seeing VotTW/Frost builds due to making HB the 51 point talent.

I don't mind having a cookie cutter spec, but you can't even play around with fillers as most points in Frost are clearly needed and not switchable for something else (exception being Deathchill/HC but I find the former one to be much more useful in a raid environment).

One question comes to mind: is it just me, or did they just changed GoG to it's live status on the PTR? Because I don't see any difference between the new PTR build and the current live implementation.

 

Warstehgnome

I am focusing on blood come 3.1 as I like it in live and believe they are making it much more synergistic come 3.1.

With the most recent changes, giving death strike a viable chance at life over oblit(though it will more than likely never ever outdamage it), I am thinking of this spec at the moment, tried it on the ptr dummy with just my own buffs, no food, no flask, no other people attacking it and had around 1700dps(with no rune strikes).

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9684

This talent gives me everything I want in blood, Vamp Blood, Mark of blood, along with an 8.5k heal every 1min. I've also included spell deflection as it really can not hurt and I don't see anything better available for the 3 points. This also assumes my tank buddy is tclapping as usual. Glyph of Diseases enables 1 blood to refresh diseases on all mobs, and then continue with the blood boil spam(which they nerfed a bit!) or heart strike/death strike spam.

This is not a maximum damage mitigation spec, as that is obviously frost at the moment, though, with such huge HP, and all these cooldowns along with WoTN, spell deflection, in my opinion it is just tough to mess with effective health.

Tsarurukai, Tank of <OP> Blackrock
www.op-guild.net
Tankspot Member Wars.

 

Flyx

Not sure if anyone hasn't noticed this before but:

Rapture + Revitalize = Blessing of Sanctuary

From my testing on the PTR, 2 druids and a priest healing me with those 2 talents were able to supply me with practically as much RP as BoSanc, and best of all it is completely unreliant on how fast the boss hits. I was able to constantly spam Rune Strike whenever possible and be at 100 Runic Power if I never used Frost Strike (Normally when I was saving RP for IBF and AMS on Mimiron). Even using Frost Strike it was almost impossible that a GCD ever went unspent due to a lack of RP and runes being on CD. Overall, it seems that losing Blessing of Sanctuary won't have such a huge impact on threat as previously thought.

 

Illundai

Scent of Blood: Will now proc on a dodge, parry or when taking damage, and now grants 10 runic power per charge. Internal cooldown removed.

Wow. Mandatory talent anyone :<

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Warstehgnome

Yeah, with no internal cooldown, scent of blood will be manditory. Glad to see that change go in my blood tree.

This means while tanking, we have close to 5 more RP given every time we swing. Great change.

Tsarurukai, Tank of <OP> Blackrock
www.op-guild.net
Tankspot Member Wars.

 

Stereonights

Is the new Scent of Blood talent worth three points as well? It would seem like it would incur a heavy investment in the Blood tree for those who might want Bladed Armor as well, throwing a wrench into those 1x/8/5x and 1x/5x/xx tanking builds you see quite frequently. I guess the extra Runic Power might outweigh 150-ish attack power per point, but this still makes Blood tanking look a bit more appetizing for 3.1.

 

Warstehgnome

Blood tanking at the moment is great as long as you have ample gear to support it. Missing a HS can really screw up your rotation. This makes blood to me just that much better. I am glad to be the only blood tank in my guild, though that will more than likely change if they don't do something with Unholy.

Scent of blood seems slightly more worth it now to something like an IIT build where you swing faster, over the course of a spank+tank fight with ITT and SoB you would have quite a lot more RP to expend. Though, it works just as well as long as we have an enh shaman(wtb enhancement shaman).

Also, if there is no internal cooldown, this would be the first buff we've had to DW tanking since 3.1 started on the PTR.

Tsarurukai, Tank of <OP> Blackrock
www.op-guild.net
Tankspot Member Wars.

 

Threep

Acclimation, while definitely a weak talent currently, isn't without its uses if a fight would actually keep it up.

First of all, the 150 resistance it grants stacks with everything. That allows you a naked resistance of 280 (with aura/totem) or 20% minimum reduction and ~35% average reduction on bosses.

The challenge is keeping it up, but currently there's a bug with certain shaman totems that makes them proc Nature/Shadow Acclimation (possibly others but not in the common raid totems then) and will actually keep it fully stacked much of the time.

Right now the only use for this is mitigating Shadow Breath while drake tanking on Sarth. I haven't studied the Ulduar bosses well but if there's a fight with a significant Shadow or Nature component on the tank then Acclimation is definitely worth the 3 points as long as this bug exists.

When they do fix this bug I would very much like to see them move Acclimation to a position where you don't sacrifice as much to take it. It feels like it would be much easier to justify taking the talent if it was on the same tier as Rime.

 

Warstehgnome

Really acclimation comes down to the same justification of spell deflection, that is it only worth it in certain fights which it is entirely tailored for.

The fact is, with talents like this, it is almost impossible to implement them well. Either the talents are too worth it and we will see huge #s of resistance in certain scenarious. This will lead to them dumping our talents in the trash like they have with Lichborne. Conversely we have this outlook on them, where they are almost never taken except for a few spell-damage heavy fights.

As death knights we just don't have the ability to justify taking something for 3 points which can be better spent elsewhere which give us moderate improvement constantly.

Tsarurukai, Tank of <OP> Blackrock
www.op-guild.net
Tankspot Member Wars.