Shimerra

Your unholy builds are much more poorly designed than the one listed in the OP. Desecration is an awful talent for anything but PvP and virulence with our man RP dump being RS and your preference for UB over DC means this isn't the most amazing place to put points. Necrosis does apply to rune strike hits and now that it is 20% of auto attack damage it is showing to be a much more important player for Unholy DPS and naturally Unholy threat with my last WWS report placing it at 8% of my damage on patchwerk. Corpse explosion is a waste, period. You take it for comedy reasons and that's about it. Unholy tanks would agree with you that Wandering plague is not needed at all in an unholy build for aoe threat, however the single point in WP in the build listed in the OP is there for the sole reason to get higher in the tree and is arguably the most beneficial place to put it even for single target.


What makes unholy a potent tank build is exactly that synergy with our avoidance tank nature in that bone shield can be kept up for a very long time. To me that's a fair trade over the talents available to Blood and Frost and even post-3.0.8 Unholy certainly doesn't feel lacking in mitigation although we are yet to truly test any build with current content.

 

Suno

That was a typo, thank you. I hastily posted the thread without a thorough proofread. Nice grab.

 

Veets

 

lilodot

Desecration is not awful at all but I also agree that there are better places to put the points. I was under the impression that Necrosis working with RS was actually a bug to be fixed with the patch but if it is working as intended then that makes a huge difference.
I know Corpse explosion is a waste, it's filler. I thought I made that clear, but again I was also avoiding Necro/BCB in that build. And I also understand why there is a point in WP.

In any case, the necrosis info actually makes a big difference for me so I'll have to reconsider some things. Thanks for the data.
Oh yes, UB is always better than DC for even single target DPS so of course this would be the same for threat, except maybe on a fight like Loatheb.

 

Indicate

We should have stat conversion in the OP aswell. Like how much agi, str, or rating = 1% avoidance (before DR of course), but on that note does anyone know if frost presence effects the armor from agi. IE

1 agi = 2 armor, then modified by frost presence and talents + Meta ?

 

Darmon

Not really. It is supposed to be Endgame thread.

The most simple way any DK can answer to that question is use HoW while in FP and compair the armor numbers before and after. Or even easier, read the tooltips carefull. Both meta and FP tooltip mentions 'armor contribution from items'.

 

Indicate

Ah your right i should read more carefully i did a check with HoW and it shows no increase with frost presence.

Aslong as those items are not neck, rings, or tinkets.

 

Facemelt

Like others mentioned before I can't see how a OB roation does more dmg then HB. ESP. on a multi-mob pull.
I suck in math, esp. compared to most guys here, but even I can figure out that 1x3k dmg on a mob is less then 3xk dmg on three mobs.

My start on a multi-mob pull is: DnD; IT, Pest, BB, HB.

 

Arthian

Should this be your Unholy DPS DK's DPS?

 

Nathariel

Depends what you are trying to do.

The extra threat on a primary target should be enough for dps to attack it, while the DnD/Pest/BB should hold any adds you have on you.

However if it is a purely aoe pack, then the additional 1k on the other targets should make up for less on the primary if it is not going to be focused anyway.

Edit: assume you meant to put in some other figure in your 3xk dmg and that would make HB better in almost all.

 

Xrkar

I am a bit confused about your rotation based on the spec you linked.

Why would you start your rotation with OB. You have annihilation, so would it not make more sense to IT -PS - OB - HS - HS ? that way you get the extra damage from the diseases? This rotation would make sense if you did not have annihilation.... but with it,?

I am just looking for a Blood tanking spec now... My guild seems to have a lack of abominations might, or a replacement, so i was considering switching to blood to fill that buff role...

 

Davia

One thing that I haven't really seen discussed when comparing Blood and Frost TPS and rotations is the effect of Blessing of Sanctuary on each. I've been mostly tanking with a Blood spec since the patch, but our raid doesn't typically have Sanctuary so it wasn't something I had really considered. However this week in Naxx25 we had a Prot paladin alt in the raid, and with Sanctuary I didn't really find I had the ability to use up my RP as Blood at all, since I want to keep my rune rotation in order for Blade Barrier and making sure FF doesn't fall off. I suppose I could use Death runes on Obliterate instead of two Heart Strikes to free up a couple GCDs to Death Coil, but even that is a minimal TPS boost since you're downgrading the threat you get from those 2 runes in order to find time to dump the RP. So it really seems to me that Sanctuary should scale Frost threat a lot more than it scales Blood threat, especially considering that even if you do manage to weave RP dumps into your blood rotation DC doesn't hit nearly as hard as Frost Strike.

 

Suno

FROST: I'm reluctant to change OB to HB in a single target rotation, until a point is defined where AP/Weapondamage align and they become equal. Currently, OB hits harder for me with Inevitable Defeat, and has an increased critical strike chance. Clearly, if low on RP, casting HB with a KM proc is more prudent.

Once points like these are defined and verified I will include them. Until then, it's merely speculation. I may add a statement that HB can hit harder in many cases for now.

BLOOD: I updated the "standard" spec to include licheborne and annihilation. I'll also note that this spec is lacking hysteria and blood aura, and that those can be added by pulling points from various locations (spell deflection).

 

Endus

I would assume that, unlike a DPS Blood, the concern is to get a good start on the single-target threat by hitting it with Obliterate right off the bat. If you start with IT-PS, you're using two GCDs on relatively low threat attacks just to get diseases applied, which means if any of your DPS jump the gun, they might pull 'em off you.

That said, in most cases I imagine you would, as I do with my frost tank, toss an IT as you start the pull, since you can toss it at range and by the time you can hit them with anything else, the GCD is back up anyway.

 

Arterus

I agree with you here. Unlike some posters, I can't imagine HB hitting harder than OB unless you have a KM proc. Even then, my FS crits harder than HB.

Obviously for more than one target, you use HB. Replace BS with a Pestilence in your rotation and go to town!

What I use to start Multi-Target pulls:
IT -> Pest -> HB -> Blood Tap -> DnD.

For single target, I always prioritize my FU runes to OB > HB.
For Killing Machine, I always prioritize FS > HB. Again, for single targets.

 

huntcaudata

I don't like that new spec. I think we need to do some testing to see if threat is any better with Annihilation and the multiple OB rotation, because as it stands I see my current spec as superior. In particular, it vastly improves Blood's only real weakness - AOE threat.

Additionally, one of the weaknesses listed in the OP for blood is lack of proactive mitigation. While technically true, Vamiric Blood has exactly the same effect as proactive mitigation. We normally dislike talents that improve healing taken because, well, you can't be healed if you're dead, that is burst damage can still kill you. Similarly, raising HP doesn't do a lot to improve tank survival in fights with sustained damage because your healers will go OOM. Vampiric blood does both, though.

In the end, Vampiric Blood is only "5% less good" than Bone Shield (uptime discussions aside) when considering burst, and it is better than Bone Shield when considering sustained damage. That is, it takes only 92.6% of the healing to keep a Blood tank topped off that it does to keep an Unholy tank topped off (when cooldowns are up). So, each has strengths and weaknesses.

Note that by burst, I really mean 1-shotting. Blood is stronger than Unholy pretty much any time that heals are coming in at all.

 

Tabrab

I might be wrong on my napkin math but here is what I found:
(formulas taken from other spreadsheets -- hoping I didn't make a mistake adapting them)

Assuming
-1 disease (Frost Fever)
-2/2 Glacier Rot
-5/5 Black Ice
-56% physical absorbtion

With a weapon of 186.9DPS, 3.4speed and 3500AP
-Obliterate and Howling Blast will hit for the same : 1271
-Below 3500AP, OB will do more damage
-Above 3500AP, HB will do more damage

With a weapon of 203.7DPS, 3.4speed and 3836AP
Obliterate and Howling Blast will hit for the same : 1367
-Below 3836AP, OB will do more damage
-Above 3836AP, HB will do more damage


So, what does it mean?
For every 1DPS increase on the weapon, 20AP is needed for Howling Blast to catch up.


It also looks like there are 238AP reduced from the total conversion:
186.9*20 = 3738 instead of the 3500
203.7*20 = 4074 instead of the 3836

-
edit: Glyphed OB

 

Arterus

Keep in mind that Obliterate will get up to 27% extra crit from talents.
Subversion - 9%
Annihilation - 3%
Rime - 15%

 

Tabrab

I was barely comparing base damage of both abilities.

Of course, if you include crit talents for Obliterate, you also need to compare a couple of things more:

OB: Crit talents
OB: Parry

HB: Deathchill
HB: Killing Machine
HB: Resists
HB: Freezing Fog (not sure if this should be included)

(Assuming 8% hit and 26 expertise)

-
edit: removed glacing blows from obliterate

 

milagre

If you're going to count killing machine procs toward howling blast damage, you need to factor in how you're then taking the free crit away from a frost strike, so it's more accurate to say: obliterate + killing machine frost strike vs killing machine howling blast + frost strike.

 

basto

With a rotation of PS IT BS BS SS SS SS

One of the scourge strikes would use death runes so 3 scourge strikes would be equal to 2 DnD's in rune cost. and you also get one additional BS in the rotation and I believe you can do this full rotation 1 second before the you would be able to do your second DnD. So over time I think this would still be superior to a DnD "rotation".

Also you cant really do a traditional rotation if you are dropping DnD at every cooldown because it cools down in 15 seconds (talented) and runes cooldown in 10. So you would get a weird rotation the goes something like this and would be constantly shifting.

DnD PS IT BS PS IT BS DND

Doing a DnD Rotation would also make points in epidemic less useful since you will be refreshing your diseases at 10 seconds.

Perhaps I am missing something but it does appear to me that a SS rotation is superior in a single target encounter.

 

makotospeaks

Can somone link me or explain to me, why the general consesus is that 5% bonus damage(and thus threat), a free mini frost trap, and some free Threat on application is a waste of talent points?

Im talking about Desecration of course, sure....on fights where u move around constantly its not as good, but as a tank that isnt as common.

 

Shimerra

The DnD single target rotation is:

DnD>PS>IT>BS>SS>BS>DnD>PS>IT>BS>SS>BS

and so on, I'm not sure why you had a second PS>IT in your rotation immediately after the previous disease application. It's actually a fairly clean rotation I however still use the SS glyph to that keeps things interesting and can add a level of complexity in managing it.

And to address makotospeaks question, it is not a 5% increase in damage. If you want to go off the compendium it's about a 2.77% increase on patchwerk type fights(no movement) without using the SS glyph which would further lower its contribution. Especially now with necrosis's buff there are better places to spend those points for a PvE tank.

 

Flamingcloud

Except most frost specs(Almost every frost spec without VotW) don't have subversion.

Obliterate parry rate way higher than HB resist
Howling Blast lower GCD from haste
Howling Blast eating a KM proc instead of an IT
Howling Blast gains significantly more crit from raid buffs
Raid buffed AP is way higher than the 3836 needed to make them equal on a non-crit
Obliterate needs a glyph (IT, FS, IBF, and RS glyphs are all very strong competition)

When I was frost, HB seemed to hit about 20-30% harder than OB on non-crits. I tried my hardest to figure out where the claims of OB superiority came from, but I never found any evidence.

 

Arterus

Except most frost specs(Almost every frost spec without VotW) don't have subversion.
Fine. 18% more crit.


Obliterate parry rate way higher than HB resist
This is true.


Howling Blast lower GCD from haste
What? I must be misunderstanding that statement. GCD from Haste would be reduced by the same amount skill-independent. Where was this statement going?


Howling Blast eating a KM proc instead of an IT
You use Frost Strike for KM procs, never IT. On multi-mob pulls, of course you prioritize HB.


Howling Blast gains significantly more crit from raid buffs
That depends largely on your raid, and also more than 18%?


Raid buffed AP is way higher than the 3836 needed to make them equal on a non-crit
Yes, but does the added base damage outweigh the average damage considering your crit rating?


Obliterate needs a glyph (IT, FS, IBF, and RS glyphs are all very strong competition)
I don't believe his napkin-math was assuming an OB glyph. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You will ALWAYS prioritize HB over OB for multi-mob pulls. The difference is on single-target where the average damage from OB is greater than the average damage for HB. I can't get to our guild's WWS page from work, but I would love to see some WWS parses showing HB outperforming OB on an average-damage basis. As much as I don't believe it, that would simplify my rotations immensely.