parvindk

It's an unglyphed 8K Instant Heal every 30 seconds.

Seems pretty good to me?

~

 

Norest

To me it seems blood runes used to heal yourself = blood runes not used to generate more threat.

Are yours healers that incompetent that you actually have to put 4 points in your talent tree? Not to mention you already have healthstones and health pots AND your existing cooldowns/trinkets for OHSHIT situations.

I Maintanked the whole of naxx fine without rune tap, seems like a total waste of talent points to me.

 

Rayven01

There is significant downtime for the first rotation, however after that things speed up. You are forgetting the rune grace period in your table (see here). Most importantly runes used individually for IT/PS and for SS/BS end up refreshing at the same time, not 1.5 seconds apart, so they are available for SS/DnD sooner. This of course assumes that you are on-the-ball on your rotation and not wasting the grace period.

Also the GCD is 1.5 seconds while your table is every 2 seconds, so you are missing some time there as well.

 

Suno

Based on this description, I think your extra 4% damage is coming from AP supplied by the 2h you equipped. I'll test this, but I'm fairly certain that this talent does not effect disease damage or similar damage effects.

I tried to stress that the listed builds are just templates. It's really up to you. My guild's DPS is nasty, and our warriors (the best recipient of Hysteria) are riding threat hard as it is on several encounters, so I prefer the heal (topping myself off before a breath, for example) over Hysteria.

On more physical encounters, like I hope Ulduar emphasizes, I'll drop spell deflection for Blood Aura/Hysteria. I believe Blood will be the best build for tanking the next Brutalus-like boss, mainly due to the increased EH. Frost may be a close second depending on how much over the armor cap UA takes you.

 

Vlar

I used a 2 second timer to better time the runes/diseases(which is also the reason rp dumps are not included) you won't be using any of your rune abilities on cd, and the grace period seems to help the SS rotation more than the DnD rotation, I am trying to update the sheet, let me see if I get this right in a PS IT BS BS rotation

PS = 10 sec cd, and the rest have a 8.5 second cd (assuming each attack is within 1.5 secs [of the previous attack])

Edit: Ignore the above question. Since DnD is being used on each of its cd's, I am not sure how the rotation is "sped up" but I am adjusting the spreadsheet I have to see.

 

Rayven01

I took a closer look at your table and just noticed you aren't actually using the rotation you quoted from Shimerra. His rotation is DnD-PS-IT-BS-SS-BS-DnD-PS-IT-BS-SS-BS. Your table is DnD-PS-IT-BS-SS-BS-DnD-SS-BS-PS-IT. That explains the diseases dropping off. Your rotation may allow DnD to be up exactly on it's cooldown (I haven't charted your rotation, assuming you are correct here), but his rotation allows the diseases to have more uptime (down a 1/2 second at most if I am charting it right) which is more important with EP.

 

Darian_TruBlade

First, the healing done by Rune Tap should generate threat. So long as you aren't overhealing yourself too badly you'll get 3-6k threat. That's not a bad deal.

Second, Healthstones and Potions are decent but really can't compare to Rune Tap. It heals for as much or more than either, can be used multiple times in a single fight, and scales with gear. When we reach Icecrown Citadel and pass 40k health a fully talented Rune Tap will heal for as much as a Potion and a Healthstone combined.

Rune Tap is optional, even worthless, right now because Naxx is easy. Down the line it's likely to be an invaluable tool for progression.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Griefknight

I think we can move out of the discussion if IRT is worth it or not. The only time you really need it is if you die to a lack of heals, I recommend you find a new guild if you have decent gear, or if you are tanking Sartharion 2/3D because that extra ~8k health can save your life multiple times during the fight. You don't DRM if you are single-target tanking so drop it for the boss fight and see if you stay alive longer.

EDIT- I like what Darian (above poster) said about using it for progression, I didn't even stop to think of future fights, so yes there is another reason to use it.

 

Crax

For current endgame raiding, IRT is extremely marginal. However, it does have a few uses, particularly for tanks that are still working on progression.

For example, with Vampiric Blood up while tanking Gluth, it healed me for 13316 after a decimate. Of course, raid buffed with VB up, I'm running ~50k health. Basically, for large, predictable sources of damage, it can be very useful and take some stress off your healers or compensate for some less than skilled healers. It's certainly not my *first* choice for an "Oh, shit!" button, but it's in my progression. Basically, if I have to hit it, something has probably gone wrong.

Now, it also lets you do some ridiculous things when running 5/10 mans or soloing, but that's not the topic of this thread.

It's also invaluable for refilling a massive health bar after a wipe or after completing the Hodir's Spear daily :P

 

strasbourg

How effective is diseaseless in terms of general tanking? I'm assuming that the 50/5/16 people specced for sarth3d use that, but is it any good for stuff other than 3d?

 

Zerath

Horrible. I posted numbers in our other thread and the guy that made the DPS spreadsheet admitted there was an error in his numbers, so, disease-less is sub-par.

IIRC, disease-less was netting 500 less DPS in tank spec/tank gear.

 

strasbourg

Playing around with blood, it seems that not only is Blood Tap unnecessary, but it seems really expensive in terms of points invested. If it was a pointer, even 2, it would be a must-get. But at 4 points, I hesitate when looking at it.

 

Durzil

I used the frost spec posted in the OP that includes Imp Icy Talons for tonight's raids.
You can click my DK to see my armory on the left.
Here is a WWS from our 25 man raid tonight, note I do not have the OB glyph, I choose to use the DND one tonight for more threat on trash.
After using it tonight I think I will stick with it unless I'm going to be doing a lot of single boss tanking where aggro is an issue I don't see the OB glyph being to my advantage.

WWS

For the overall run HB hit for an avg of 1954 with 43% crit (got to love killing machine)
For the overall run OB hit for an avg of 1712 with 36% crit

Seems to me with my gear and raid buffs that HB is the better choice.

anyone else have any WWS to post that shows this as well?

My rotations are sloppy but I added in OB on single target stuff enough to see what it hit for vs HB that I feel this shows a good comparison.

With the Glyph OB might pull ahead slightly in avg dmg but with killing machine making HB crit more and less chance of it missing as a spell and freeing up a glyph spot I think HB comes out ahead.

 

Zerath

As we already stated - the only fight it's worthwhile on is 3dSarth, even though I <3 it when doing 5mans since it means I can solo heal a few pulls if the healer forgot a badge.

(I think you mean Rune Tap.)

Rune Tap will be maxed for my progression build along with it being glyphed, most likely. Healing yourself and your party is very nice for a 30s timer and takes the burden off your priests that can no longer spam CoH.

There isn't a clear cut "Is it better?" - it's personal preference.

 

pindle

I agree it's clearly a matter of preference, but as a rerolled healer, with the plenty and strong "oh shit" abilities we already have, I just don't see the use. I don't need yet another oh shit, the healers will be spamming me mostly anyway (in a fight where it matters) - making alot of its heal overheal. You also need a blood rune ready (or waste extra time on blood tap), which may mess up your rotation. To me personally there are other talents to choose from that are better, but as said, personal is personal, additional self healing MAY be valuable to some.

Is rune tap currently GCD bound (seem to remember it was but heard it's not (anymore?))? Wouldn't take it still but at least I can see why someone would find it usefull.

 

Darian_TruBlade

Rune Tap uses a GCD. Vampiric Blood and Blood Tap do not.

Edit: Rune Tap is apparently off the GCD, so combined with Blood Tap you can instantly heal yourself any time.

As such, if you need Rune Tap immediately you can macro it with Blood Tap.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Pyros

Rune Tap is off the GCD, but yeah you can macro it with Blood Tap which is off the GCD too.

 

Aezoc

As was discussed earlier in the thread, spending KM procs on HB instead of FS has an opportunity cost. Your average FS hit was higher than HB, so it makes sense to spend the procs there instead as much as possible (at least on single-target fights). Do that, and Ob will look considerably more attractive.

 

TehFoo

I have some confusion about some of the talent choices i see here. The biggest one is have is with impurity over desecration. Im aware that Des is not up all the time but the latest data i saw was that it has a straight 2500 threat addition when applied. Impurity effects very few spells and i have heard that most people get it for additional aoe threat. Id like to see the numbers but if the threat application from Des was on par with the additional tps from Impurity
then Des would also have the advantage of an all dps incease effect and a snap aggro componant.

More to come.. raid time

 

Shimerra

Desecration is bad. Horse has successfully been beaten into oblivion. Stop asking.

 

Zerath

Desceration "application" is the initial burst, meaning if your mob isn't in the circle, there was no TPS given for that. With group pulls, it holds the same.

Impurity > Desceration for tanking.

This has been discussed as the above poster stated - many times.

 

Nich

Re: the multi-target rotation for the 'standard' blood build:

DnD-IT-PS-Pest is BFU-F-U-B out of the way. HS/Pest/BB all use blood runes.

Presumably there should be an occasional Oblit in there to convert useless FU runes for use by almost-anything-of-any-aoe-value?

I'd like to offer moral support, but I have questionable morals

 

huntcaudata

Additionally, we need to get numbers straight if we're going to compare threat. The threat values listed at Tankspot, etc. are almost exclusively multiplied by 100 in relation to threat from damage. The application of Desecration does not apply as much threat as 2500 damage, it applies as much threat as 25 damage.

 

Endus

This is looking at everything in a vacuum. It assumes you have the 40(32) RP for Frost Strike available (we're assuming the runes for HB are available at this moment, or it'd be an easy choice to use FS instead, and the HB/OB debate wouldn't apply), and that you don't need to hold any RP back for IBF, that Rune Strike isn't available since that's the better RP dump or that if it is, you have 60 (52) RP, that the fight isn't requiring the tank or boss to leave melee and thus make ranged the only option. In the few runs I've done with my DK, all of these are the case often enough to be a factor to consider.

Plus, again, there's the opportunity cost of Obliterate. Every comparison I've seen assumes you're using the Obliterate glyph, which admittedly is good if you're focusing on Obliterate. Some also assume Subversion. We should be comparing the two with neither, and then discussing whether it's worth spending the glyph and talent points to push OB past HB for single-target (if it isn't there on it's own, unglyphed and without Subversion). Even if it's clear that glyphed and talented Obliterate is better, it may not be so much better that we can't find a better use for that glyph and talents. If you're glyphing for threat, for instance, you can easily use [Glyph of Frost Strike], [Glyph of Rune Strike], [Glyph of Icy Touch]. And that's assuming you want all three glyphs for threat, rather than some for avoidance/mitigation.

In my runs, my OB is hitting and critting for less than my HB. This is assuming I dump my RP on FS first, which I am doing for single-target. My gear is trash and I know it, since my DK is my secondary character, and that may be the reason. I'm not glyphed for Obliterate, nor do I have Subversion, because HB is "good enough" in my single-target rotation. I've only had one person pull off me in a single-target situation, and that was our best-geared Fury warrior, in mostly 25-man gear to my frost DK's half set of 10-man stuff I've gotten out of two weeks of 10-man runs. I've been asking our DPS, and they haven't been having to hold back at all.

So I'm wondering, if they outgear me already, and my threat is sufficient as-is, why should I change anything to improve my single-target threat, which is apparently fine already?


Edit: I'm NOT saying HB is "better" than Obliterate. I'm debating whether the cost of getting Obliterate to be better than HB is worth the price, and pointing out other factors of fights that may diminish its value and applicability.

 

Megaera

A couple of points in reference to the opportunity cost of improving OB so that it is always preferable to HB:

1) The cost of not improving OB is not restricted to situations where HB is an option. Consider that whenver HB is on cooldown (either due to a rime, or because you use multiple UF pairs in any given rotation) you'll be using OB. The loss of threat and (maybe more importantly since Frost is often comfortable on threat) DPS in these situations needs to be taken into account when asking yourself "Do I glyph OB and spec Sub?" It wouldn't surprise me if Sub and OB-Glyph were compelling single-target options even using HB on every cooldown.

2) There are several options to consider if you choose not to spec Sub, so evaluating the cost is going to be hairy. I'm particularly interested in the possibility of dropping Sub and taking Spell Deflection in a Frost/Vet build, others might prefer two points of IRT, but people in non-vet builds might have fewer appealing options.

3) No matter how you spend the glyph (presumably on Rune Strike or a defensive cooldown) and points, you're hampering your ability to swap gear and DPS on fights that require fewer tanks. I'm not sure how to value this loss of utility. The nice thing about the traditional mantra of 'jack OB to the point where HB is a pure AOE tool' is that it meshes well with the natural flexibility DKs provide by having so little difference between tanking and DPS builds.