Suno

Megaera makes a good point here. However, in frost builds like the ones listed in the OP, I can't see where to get more than 2 points for subversion. In a VotW build it's easy and an intelligent rotation would be:

HB on Rime or KM procs WHEN runic power < 32 (40).

else

OB

 

Lurne

I run with a prot pally so I generally use the following spec - pulling points from Chill of the Grave and 1 point from KM to fill out subversion.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

RP is never really an issue - BoS ensures I'm full up when tanking and when dps 4pT7 helps. I'm willing to give up 1 KM proc a min for the extra crit % on a fully glyphed and sigil'd Oblit - esp on the fights where I'm dps.

 

Kyruski

I noticed this on the OP
With this rotation, there needs to be a way to produce death runes for the 3 SS in the 2nd half of the rotation. When I look at the spec posted, there is no talent for producing death runes. Would someone mind telling me how this is achieved or is this a mistake in the spec posted. From what I see, I'd try to do something more along the lines of Possible 3D Sarth Build switching the 3 in Outbreak into Reaping for the Death Runes since I don't see a lot of damage/threat coming from PS.

 

Suno

Thanks, updated.

Also, I messed around last night to determine the viability of a diseaseless spec/rotation, and while successful, it felt gimped. I am evaluating other blood alternatives.

 

Megaera

At the risk of idle speculation:

Recent blue chatter has indicated an incoming buff to Plague Strike for PvE; I'd speculate it'll be by baking in some needed melee buff. They have mentioned displeasure with DKs ignoring one of their core diseases (I can only imagine what they think of the competitiveness of diseaseless Blood DPS), and also the difficulty of buffing Plague Strike without making it too good in PvP. We'll likely know more when the DK portion of the class-change-overview gets posted, but for now I'm trying to keep full-disease rotations in mind since they're likely the way of the future, and I am not going to expend too much energy pursuing diseaseless options.

 

Kayaree

My experience as a frost tank has led me solidly towards this spec:
Frost Tank

*IIT - a must-have for me, shaman have become rare for my 10m groups (wtb heroism), and the haste gained through it pushes RS/auto closer. I somehow am fortuitous enough to have BoSanc almost always, RS makes up 2/3 + of my auto swings, so the melee haste has significant benefit to me. It seems like one of the better uses of those points (Merciless Combat is the only alternative that would provide a real overall benefit, though free Mind Freeze would certainly be handy as well for when rogues/etc. are too mentally lacking to kick)

*Deathchill - something I value for initial trash threat, since I find myself pulling 2-3 groups at a time in both normal and heroic naxx. HB crit on all the mobs, drop a DnD, and use KM procs for HB.

*Morbidity - DnD for every trash pull is nice. 2/3 Morbidity also has it up for almost every one of Gothik's endless waves as well, which is handy with trigger happy dps that AoE's at every opportunity (read: if theres 2 mobs standing relatively close to eachother, AoE is the first thing some of these people think of)

I tried out the unholy tanking idea for a little while, but switched back when healers said they didn't notice a difference between me as frost or unholy, probably due in part to ~70% avoidance before cooldowns. I'll be switching out my Glyph of Unbreakable Armor for Obliterate, so I'll be interested in seeing if it can come to be more in line with HB damage. As it is right now, my HB dominates OB in average damage/average crit.


Personally, I don't really see the attraction of Blood for tanking yet. At lower gear levels, I can see WotN possibly being better than Bone Shield, but not at the level of avoidance that we're at now where BS charges last longer than the cooldown in most cases. Vampiric Blood seems.. kinda handy? In a situation with lots of raid damage and few healers or something, It could be helpful, but seems to me like higher avoidance/avoidance cooldowns would be of more use. Can anyone explain to me exactly what the draw of Blood for tanking is?

 

Clandestine

Source, please? I've seen exactly nothing on the subject.

 

Mooncrow

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Ebon Plague Fix

"Not all Unholy DKs pick up Unholy Blight though. One of the benefits of Ebon Plague is it just happens without having to spend that extra GCD. We'll get it fixed.

We also agree that Plague Strike feels underwhelming. Part of the reason is that, unlike Icy Touch, it also has a pretty significant PvP effect in its ability to remove hots. We have some ideas to improve it though. We definitely don't want DKs to ever feel like the right way to play is to ignore one of their two main diseases. As some players have pointed out, there are a few reasons why that is the case.

As a new class, I would expect to see a higher rate of change over time in the DK until they have caught up a little more with the 4+ year history of the other classes. "

 

Mindaika

2H weapon specialization outdamages Subversion, both per point and overall, at most realistic AP/Crit values. The math has been done, it's in the DK tanking thread.

Tastes like Awesome, because it's made of Awesome(TM)

 

DWeidman

Briefly -

The biggest pro for Blood tanking is for PuGs (I know... *shrug*) - when you don't know what kind of healer you have. A Blood tank always has a 15k heal in his pocket with 3 buttons (Vamp blood, Rune Tap and Health Pot).

We are also running with potentially 7.5% more health (15% up for 30 seconds of every minute) - with an +35% healing for your healer. This takes you from 35K HP raid buffed to 40k for 30 seconds of every minute (or from 40K to 46K).

With intelligent decisions on CDs - I can survive pretty long periods of time with no heals.

We also get a two target cleave with HS and WotN (which is a straight 15% damage reduction on anything that is life threatening).

Honestly though - I am on the verge of making the switch to Unholy or Frost now (I have been primarily blood spec'd from lvl 56).

Hope that helps.

 

Endac

I've read through this thread just to make sure my questions weren't already asked... so I guess it's safe.

Me and another DK have been in a discussion on how to min/max certain stats, and where to stop with 1 stat and continue with another without "wasting" stat points. But we're having trouble finding some information, so here are the questions:

1. I see a lot of DKs with the IT->Defense sigil when they are already at or over defense cap. Is there a real need for defense over the cap, assuming any tank build? If there's a need, anyone have the numbers on the additional avoidance with over-cap defense? Or is this simply for buffing IBF?

2. Is there any information on what the parry and dodge amounts are BEFORE diminishing returns come into play? A chart would be super if the amount of DR per point changes.

3. Tank socketing: This will depend on the answer to #2 obviously on what stats to go for. After reading this post and others on other boards, it seems that for gems... defense > dodge > parry > expertise/hit (for these stats). Would this assumption be a correct one? Where would stamina fit into that comparison of those stats above?

4. Is there a magic number of combined dodge/parry to aim for (before DR) in a set? I've heard 40% from gear is a good start... how do you guys feel?


Thanks in advance.

 

Sonrisa

The defense sigil is the only sigil in the game with any sort of tanking stats, the rest are all DPS sigils. In any encounter where threat or DPS isn't an issue the defense sigil is better. The rest of your questions are already answered in many places in this forums, so I'll save myself some work there.

 

Kayaree

You still get avoidance beyond 540, paper doll values of .04% dodge, parry, and miss (.12% total) for each 1 point of defense (before dimishing returns).

This post and this chart are both good, which you can essentially sum up as "try to have 2:1 defense-dodge rating ratio". This is where the RatingBuster mod comes in great help, as it does the complete recalculation of actual avoidance gained after diminishing returns.

You should never gem parry, Forceful Deflection pushes our parry rating so high that pretty much any other gem would be worth more in slot, this graph shows why.
Fortunately enough, you can choose your gear almost entirely in favor of max avoidance and still be practically 2h hit capped. The set I chose ends up only needing 1 8hit 8x gem to cap hit, but includes Death's Bite. I'm sure exactly where the definite line of "stamina is worth more" is, but a friend and I are operating on the idea of 1k hp ~ 1% avoidance, though this might not be a correct equivalence. A good way to think of it is "Will this much health enable me to take an extra hit and survive?" If you answer no, then avoidance is a better investment than stamina.

I'm pretty sure 40% is about where I started heroics, as a NE frost tank so i had +5% racial/talent miss and the 10% blade barrier on top of that.

 

Aezoc

I don't think you can really compare defense vs. threat gemming without talking about a specific fight. You can check my armory, I've gemmed to stay hit/expertise capped (more or less, a little below hit cap atm), and found it plenty sufficient to tank everything so far in 10s and 25s (although I haven't tried Sarth 2/3D yet). It's not really an exact science though, just gem for survival until you can comfortably survive the content and then gem for threat. Higher DPS is never a bad thing, and DKs in particular benefit a lot from the predictable rotations that come with more hit/expertise.

 

notebook

TLDR: Some insight on my Frost Tanking experience w/ lots of #'s. Frost does a lot of TPS. WTB Sunder/Sigil.


Hey all.

I've been Frost for quite awhile, and I've been trying to find a good balance between generating the largest amount of ST threat possible without gimping my overall raid viability. Each week, my goal is to put out the #1 DPS and TPS according to WMO, and so far, each week I complete that goal. That being said, I have been eclipsed soon after and I currently feel that the only way to increase my DPS/TPS without using a very specific "PW" spec (which some of the others have used) is to just pray that Sigil of Awareness drops.

Here is a link to my armory.

The World of Warcraft Armory
10/52/8

Glyph of Frost Strike (-8 RP per FS)
Glyph of Obliterate (+20% Obliterate Damage)
Glyph of Rune Strike (+10% Crit Chance)

I'll explain some of my choices.

I used to use Glyph of Icy Touch (+10 RP gain per IT) but with Sanctuary, I'd much rather gain that crit chance on RS, since it is my #1 damaging / threat ability.

I spec into Virulence specifically so I can be 100% melee and spell hit capped at all times. I run 293 hit, which gives me 8.94% melee hit (0.94% over) and 11.17 spell hit (0.17 over). With Virulence and a SP/Moonkin, I don't miss anything, ever. Now, there may be some math that proves that if I used the 3 pts from Virulence into a DPS increasing talent (such as 3/5 Dark Conviction, or 3/3 Subversion, or 2/2 Two-Handed Spec), and maybe someone here can change my mind... but I hate missing... ever.

I am capped on both hit and expertise (I run 57 expertise fully raid buffed, 14.25%).

I am 2/3 Runic Power Master as somewhat of a filler. I didn't use FS Glyph before, and 120 RP allowed me to FS 3x on a full bar. That being said, my RP is normally saved for RS until it is 75% or higher, so the -8 allows me to Frost Strike just a bit earlier while not gimping my next 2 RS possibilities.

With the impending change to BOTN, I'll most likely be putting 1 PT back into DC, and the remaining point into RPM for 3/3 (130%).

So you might ask why I don't put a point into Death Chill. I've found that I rarely use it, and with so many boss fights approaching 2 minutes or less, it really doesn't end up benefitting me overall. It helps more on trash than anything else, and I spec HC (controversial, I know) specifically to apply FF on multiple mobs before a HB. At any rate, I don't think the point into either of these is really a gamebreaker, and as I'd rather have a slightly more viable "overall" tanking spec, I take HC.

My Rotation:

Blood Tap
IT, HB, OB, BS >> dump (if applicable)
HB, IT, OB, BS >> ...
HB, OB, IT, BS >> ... (repeat forever)

When starting a fight, I pull with IT and get the DBL damage HB up asap. If I get lucky and get a KM proc on the Melee swing, even better. I then just work IT down my rotation until its next to BS, and the rotation becomes mindless. I don't mind the suggested rotation of IT, BS, HB/OB, OB >> IT, BS, HB/OB, OB, it's just personal preference.

Here are some results from our last Patchwerk:

Keep in mind, this was with no Sunder, Expose Armor, or Sigil of Awareness (bad luck).

Wow Web Stats - Patchwerk
WoW Meter Online - Patchwerk
DPS : 3477 , Act. DPS : 3519 , DPS Time : 02:24 ( 99% ) , TPS : 8510 ( 8573 )

Patchwerk - 8498 TPS Parse

As you can see, my HB destroys my Obliterate in average damage. Here are some things to consider, and perhaps someone can convince me to use the lesser damaging Obliterate in place of HB in future PW attempts.

3245 AP unbuffed. 3555 AP w/ Horn. Well into 4k+ with Might/Improved Totem.

I do not have the Sigil of Awareness (I hate you, Blizzard).

On my last fight, I had no Sunder or Expose Armor. It's safe to assume that Obliterate will do a considerable amount of additional damage with both Sigil AND Sunder, but would it be enough to overtake HB?

My goal is to get well into the 9000 TPS range and 3600 DPS on Patchwerk. I am currently 373 TPS away from ragaining the top spot, and I feel that both Sigil and Sunder would make up for that with ease.


Here are some questions / musings / whatever:

Should I switch back to Sigil of Frozen Conscience instead of Haunted Dreams? I only IT about 15-17 times per PW, but that additional damage may be more reliable than the 3.77% crit for 10 seconds.

Is there any math out there that shows I should be using Obliterate ALL of the time instead of HBlast? Even with Sigil of Awareness, I feel my HB will still produce more damage / threat.

With 20-25% crit on HB, and 35-40% crit on OB, is this reason alone to stop using HB? Will the lower damage but higher crit % make up for it?

Related to the above question; would it be more wise to put the 3 points from Virulence into Subversion or Dark Conviction, taking a higher crit rate, but adding a 3% chance to miss (on IT/HB). If HB is left out, then the only spell I would be using is IT, thus the loss may not be large at all.


At any rate, I probably forgot a lot of things, or wrote more than any one person wants to read. If anyone has some suggestions, let me know.

 

urotas

Personally I was never comfortable with using Blood Tap to set up a rotation, as it prevents you from using it for Unbreakable Armor. I found a solution in using Empower Rune Weapon right at the start after the first rotation. I find it a good time to use it anyway to get a good threat lead right from the start. Basically:

IT, HB (deathchilled), PS, BS, BS
Empower Rune Weapon
repeat below
{OB, OB, IT, BS
OB, OB, BS, IT}

The advantage is that you are always using a FU rune pair to activate your 2-rune abilities, and using one death rune for IT and generating a death rune with Blood Strike in each rotation. The Plague Strike is only used in the first rotation to get the unholy rune on cooldown, otherwise you end up with uneven rune refreshes after ERW is used. If you skip the plague strike in the first rotation, after the first OB your unholy rune will be on a 10 second cooldown and frost rune on a 8 second cooldown.

I don't pick up Runic Power Mastery myself, as I prefer to spread my Frost Strikes in between other abilities instead of doing several in a row. That way you never need the extra runic power maximum to do more Frost Strikes. If you are thinking of getting more threat from blood talents, 2H Weapon Spec is better for threat than Subversion, and in general very powerful for threat even if you use Howling Blast half of the time. 2H spec will increase your Rune Strike, white damage, Obliterate, Blood Strike, Frost Strike and Plague Strike damage.

 

Zerath

Firstly, nice to see some one else from DI here.

I want to thank you for the amount of description you posted with this with breakdowns of near everything. It helps this board so much when people do that. ^_^

Now, the only thing I found that intrigued me are these:

- Assuming your not in Frost Presence, you rock roughly 3k HP less than I do un-buffed. Buffed turns in to a large chunk more. How well are your healers keeping you up all around?

- Your choice of pushing Expertise is on the thought process of Conrad (MT warrior). He's near your mark and finding his DPS/TPS is increasing quite a bit the closer he gets to Parry cap. Is this solely your PW setup or *all* bosses? If so, do you tank Sarth in OS3 or do ya'll have a feral do that while you scoop up whelps?

- Spec, I think we can increase the DPS/TPS generation by dropping Runic Power Mastery and HC. Heading over to the Blood tree and grabbing 2H Spec and Dark Conviction. Now, the point in DC could be better else where, I'm just not sure where specifically.

[DC will give you 1% crit to everything you use while Subversion gives you 3% crit to 2 things you use. While only using 4 abilities in your rotation, we can assume for 1pt, an equalizing agreement would be 1.5% crit to everything would lead to 3% for 1/2 your abilities. (Thought process 1.5%crit x4abilities = 6 ; 3%crit x 2abilities = 6). This is extremely rough and guaranteed to have mitigating factors added for armor/etc.)]

- Sigil thought - Two ways around this. You can grab the +Def sigil which would let you drop an enchant for more Life and a socket or two for more EXP/Dodge. Or even drop an item for a more DPS orientated item.

- Sigil thought (2) - You could use Icy Touch for a push in the damage there. It is the leading Frost/Hybrid sigil. (Due to using IT ~3-5 times per rotation, though.)

I believe going either way would broaden your TPS horizon.

 

notebook

Good point. I forgot to mention that I do typically use ERW for an extra burst in threat. I have usually used my normal rotation (IT, HB, OB, BS > ERW > HB, OB, IT, PS) but I have definitely noticed the uneven runes. Since I have been using BT early, I do have to wait that extra minute for an UA usage. As an option, I was experimenting with rotations like:

BT
IT, HB, OB, BS >> ERW
HB, OB, IT, UA >> ... (super strict timing)
HB, OB, BS, IT >> ... (if you missed the small window, you'll end up with BB instead of BD)

... your timing has to be impeccable.

You can also do...

BT
IT, HB, BS (cut short) >> ERW
HB, OB, IT, UA >> ...
HB, OB, BS, IT >> ...

... or...

IT, HB (BT) OB, BS >> ERW
HB, OB, IT, UA >> ...
HB, OB, BS, IT >> ...

I'm not suggesting any of these are superior. However, the third option allows you to use 2x FU abilities while gaining FF damage bonus, AND allows you to fit in an UA at the start of the fight. This keeps the FU runes even as well. Give it a try on a training dummy.

I may switch to your first rotation so I can work in an early UA. I'll let you know how that works out this coming Tuesday.


I tend to shoot for HB and FS eating KM procs whenever I can. If I get a KM proc mid rotation, I'll eat it with a FS and continue on my way. Sometimes I'm forced to eat a KM with an IT, which is OK... but it's my least favorite option out of HB and FS. That being said, even with Glyph of Frost Strike and 120 RP, I'm still letting far too many melee swings go through (more than I'd like at least). This is partially due to getting an itchy trigger finger when all of my runes are on CD and/or a KM is up and I want to eat it fast before another procs and I waste the first one.

Threat wise, I'm doing OK. I know I can pump out 9000+ with a Sunder and Sigil of Awareness (which dropped today... while I was tanking an alt run on my Warrior... such injustice!). However, after cleaning up my rotation, the real question becomes... HB or OB? This one still perplexes me. I see a lot of people swearing by OBx2 over HB/OB. Even with the Sigil... I don't see it making up that amount of damage... but who knows, perhaps it will.


I run 28652 HP unbuffed for MT'ing PW. In fact, I rarely switch out of this gear for anything in Naxx, if at all. I even use it for trash. Partially because I'm lazy, and partially because it makes no discernable difference. The last Naxx we did, we 5-healed, and everything was a cakewalk (near Immortal, but someone DC'ed on Thaddius lol). Patchwerk with 5 healers and 2 tanks (myself and a 54000 hp Druid OT) was a joke. In the WWS, you can see a low DPS pali. We were experimenting with a gimp ret-specced Pali that went 21 into Prot for BoS. He did about 1k more DPS than the week before, but his DPS was still low overall. Just an experiment.

For Sarth3D 25, I pick up flames/whelps. I run about 32k unbuffed (only switching trinks for Gossamer/Monarch, and Gatekeeper for Frostguard Ring).

For Sarth3D 10, I respec Unholy and MT. I use the same gear as I do for 25-man. Logically, I should have a "stam" set which would see my 27 hit gems swapped for 41 stams, and all of my 16 hits swapped for 24 stam. I'd also enchant a different set of bracers with +40 stam, and boots with raw stam as well. However, since the content is already down, It really makes no difference. This is something I will specifically work on for Ulduar though.


[DC will give you 1% crit to everything you use while Subversion gives you 3% crit to 2 things you use. While only using 4 abilities in your rotation, we can assume for 1pt, an equalizing agreement would be 1.5% crit to everything would lead to 3% for 1/2 your abilities. (Thought process 1.5%crit x4abilities = 6 ; 3%crit x 2abilities = 6). This is extremely rough and guaranteed to have mitigating factors added for armor/etc.)]

If you want to make a straight up PW TPS/DPS spec, then you can go something like this:

Talent Calculator - Patchwerk TPS Spec

No RPM
No TS (lose 10% on all abilities)
No Virulence
No DC
-
Gain Subversion
Gain Dark Conviction
Gain 2H Weap Specialization
Gain VOTW (6 EXP over 5 from TS)

The above spec would turn into this after the patch to BOTN (3/3 instead of 5/5).

Talent Calculator - Patchwerk TPS Spec 3.1


Again, I'm more concerned about having an all-around Frost Tanking spec while adjusting a few points around for more logical choices than speccing completely into DPS/TPS at the cost of raid efficiency. I wonder what sort of DPS/TPS gains I would get with the above spec. Do all of those extra DPS talents make up for the loss of Virulence and the 10% bonus from TS?

I might go back to the IT Sigil until Awareness drops. I really don't like the defense Sigil. I was actually looking to make a raw TPS/DPS set that utilized 2P Valorous DPS (Shoulders/Legs) for the 5% Crit to OB. This could be done without using the defense Sigil, and simply putting 1 def gem into a set of Valorous DPS legs. I also used Ruthlessness in the place of Gatekeeper, but at that point, I feel like I'm cheating.

All that being said, I still wonder if Virulence is worth it.

Is it worth it if I have Awareness and only OBx2 every rotation (thus only 1 spell per cycle)?

Is it worth it if I still use HB once per cycle? 2 out of 4 abilities being "spells".

Would I gain more TPS with 3/3 DC, or 2/2 2HWS +1/3 DC?

How about speccing out of RPM and Virulence completely for 3/3 DC, 2/2 2HWS?

Lot of interesting options. Perhaps someone that has tried some of these things can shed some light.

- suspect/minim

 

Ghaash

@notebook
Actually our Death Knights can pretty much answer most of the questions, or at least, show a trend. My WWS report of this week's Patchwerk ranked #2, while yours did #3.
8799 TPS vs 8510 TPS on Patchwerk @WMO
Wow Web Stats

-My spec for this night was: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Not optimal with 1/2 Merciless Combat, but i like to pick up trash packs with it-pest-deathchill-hb-bb. I might change that point around for next week. For the rest, it's the build you put in question.
-My glyphs are: Obliterate, Runestrike, Froststrike.
-I used the Sigil of the Frozen Conscience since the Sigil of Awareness dropped later that night.
-We both used Flask of Endless Rage and Greatness Trinket
-I didn't use a second offensive trinket, but rather the Monarch Crab (which seemed to have landed in the wrong trinket slot and didn't got used)
-I got 1 Tricks of the Trade while you got 2
-I had Sunder Armor on Patchwerk and Leader of the Pack
-I got no thorns buff (%&/!$@ druid)
-We both forgot to use the ghoul

(i might be missing some benefits here)

-We both got 82 Runestrikes and Frost Strikes combined, where i used more FS and you more RS. Since RS is more threat per strike, i should follow your rule and dont empty my RP pool on FS. Since my fight lasted 16 seconds longer, that further shows how much i sucked

-I was at 17 expertise skill (4.25%) and 274 hitrating (8.36% melee, 13.4%spellhit with shadowpriest) while eating a 40str foodbuff in comparison to your 40expertise rating buff. Resulting in 0 parry/dodge on your report and 2 avoided OBs, 5 avoided swings and 1 avoided BS in my report.

-I used UA two times, you one time. Since i haven't worked a "plan" out for its usage, my rotations got pretty messy. Thanks for the advice on how to weave in UA.

-My rotation was IT-OB-OB-BS with macroed OB&BT, so no clever usage for UA, once the deathrune conversion is rolling. I started with RP dumping at the end, but since it was the first time i raided with BoSanc, i quickly switched to FSing in between rune-abilities to not get too much overflow. I guess this influenced my RS count negatively...
I can't remember ERW, but i suppose i used it to cover up a bad rotation after UA.

-I don't think the +2% threat enchant on my gloves makes it into these threat calculations

So, all in all, i wanted to show: Except for Sunder Armor, everything was in your favor for TPS, still i came out ahead with playing worse.

I don't think your spec/gear is anything more all-round or more raid efficient than mine. You are at 61.64% paperdoll avoidance and , while i am at 59.82% (missing 2% talented dodge, and still got no Bracers of the Unholy Knight) and 33.4k HP unbuffed. This is with only stamina gems socketed and swappable dodge-socketed t7.5 pieces without losing TPS.

All this being said, i'm looking forward to this week's logfiles and hope you get sunders on your target, while i try to optimize my RP usage and rotations.

/sry for not being that eloquent with english
/edit typo: monarch crap -> crab

 

Frostblood

I have a question, if i'm allowed, even if it's not on the subject the previous posts are talking about.
I see none of the favourite tanking builds prefered on these threads, including the spell deflecting talent 3/3 from blood tree. I really dunno why ppl are not including that, because usually the parry chance of a normal DK tank is arround 18-20 %, and with blade barrier is 30%. That means 30% to avoid 30% of an incoming spell attack. That alot i'd say, and it's even better then those 6% increased stamina and +6 expertise from VotTW. Am i the only one to think deflecting is an awesome talent wich is a must have?
For the comparison, use the values of avoidance a DK usually has: arround 45 % rough avoidance for melee; put on top of that 30% of spell deflecting. That beside the magic dumpage the DK has from the start.
I'd like some comments please.

 

Endus

The problem with spell deflection has several aspects. It's not reliable; the chance to proc is only the same as your Parry chance. When it does, it's only 30%. And it only works on direct damage spells.

Using your own numbers, a 30% chance to reduce direct damage spells by 30% works out to slightly less than a 10% reduction in total direct spell damage.

Also, take a look at how much direct spell damage there is in boss fights sometime. There's really not much at all. The vast majority of bosses do physical damage, and if they do have magic attacks, they're almost always AoEs or placed effects, which Spell Deflection can't reduce. The one boss I know of who does a direct damage effect for which this could be useful is Kel'thuzad, with his single-target Frost Bolt, but that's interruptable and interrupting it rather than hoping your talent will proc to reduce the damage is a MUCH better strategy.

Compared to VotTW, you've got 10% spell damage reduction versus a minority of spell damage, compared to a 6% effective health boost against absolutely every single kind of damage in the game. Plus, VoTTW gives 6 points of Expertise, which is a significant advantage for threat. Even on Kel'thuzad without any interrupts, I'd rather have VotTW, to better be able to eat a frost bolt through higher health, rather than hoping for SD to proc so I don't get gibbed.

If I had points to spare, I might grab Spell Deflection, but to be honest, it looks like it would be much more effective for PvP than tanking.

 

nythain

As Endus said, most fights do not involve damage that Spell Deflection can work on. If you read the OP, you will notice that both the blood-tank build, and the Unholy 3DS include Spell Deflection; this is because Spell Deflection will work on Sarth's breath attack.

Further, Spell Deflection used to be bugged to have the Spell Deflection reduction overwrite the reduction from AMS. In other words, if you had 3/3 Spell Deflection, your AMS now reduced damage by 30% instead of 75%.

Another 'hit' against Spell Deflection is that most forms of magical damage that are relevant (such as Sarth's breath) are predictable (i.e. they have a cast timer), and can be better prevented with using AMS.

 

Taiyoken

I take Spell Deflection on Sarth b/c I have about 36% parry with BB up

There's really no other place that the 3 points will benefit you, seeing as how sarth is invincible for about 40% of the fight.

Of course, for people who have him on farm, respeccing for SD doesn't look too great, so it's possible to do it without him. Sometimes Sarth throws you off when he breaths constantly after 12 sec (the fastest breaths), so I like to be able to prevent that damage (sometimes).

 

urotas

The difference between HB and OB is based heavily on spec, gear, weapon, raid buffs/debuffs, glyphs, sigil and the time of the moon, so it's hard to state any general rule for it. Sunder and faerie fire in particular make a huge difference, as they add about 25% to all physical damage. For me personally I'm finding Obliterate hits typically do more damage than Howling Blast hits, it gets a higher crit modifier and a much higher crit rate unless I use killing machine procs on HB. I noticed your Howling Blast hits were much higher than mine and Obliterates much lower. I'm not sure what is causing that, since sunders alone can't make the difference. I'm also losing 3-5% damage from Howling Blast on partial resists.

Typically raid buffed my crit for Obliterate with 2/3 Subversion is about 40% (11% base, 15% from Rime, 5% from LotP, 3% from Retri, 6% from Subversion), while crit with Howling Blast is 20% (2% base, 10% from Improved Scorch, 5% from moonkin aura, 3% from retri) Of course Howling Blast may end up higher on crit on a wws, but that's largely from it eating killing machine procs from Frost Strike. On the other hand without Sanctuary I was doing considerably less Frost Strikes in general, so maybe I'd be wasting procs if I don't use them on Howling Blast. With Sanctuary it's pretty easy to use most KM procs for Frost Strike though.

In my latest Naxx-25 clear I decided to use Howling Blast more than usual to get a better idea of their difference. As a result on bosses my average Obliterate hits are higher than Howling Blasts, and at least some of those Obliterates will have been done on unsundered mobs. WWS

This was the first time in a while I've tanked the 25-man version without Sanctuary, and I was a bit worried how it would affect my threat generation. In the end threat generation was noticably lower than with Sanctuary, but still ok. I managed to do a bit less than 8000 TPS on Patchwerk, though I noticed a huge amount of missed Frost Strike and Rune Strike opportunities from rune power starvation. I won't be able to get a decent comparison to a run with Sanctuary for a while, since our protection paladin is taking a few weeks break.

 

Frostblood

Thanks on the comments now i have 3 more talent points to put somewhere else