teiglin

I don't really see Bone Shield as optimal for Thorim hard. Thorim's (increasingly) fast swing speed and reduced avoidance makes it a pretty bad fight for bone shield, actually. Frost's advantage is in overall higher mitigation and avoidance, plus the fact that IBF will last for an entire unbalancing strike. VB is very strong cooldown here too, since the increased health makes it more likely you'll survive a crit, and the massive incoming dps makes the bonus healing shine as well, not to mention blood's EH advantage. I'd say unholy is the weakest for Thorim.

Honestly, Bone Shield really shines for Iron Council, but aside from that, I don't see it as a huge advantage. I haven't killed Mimiron hard (though I wasn't aware of additional tank burst mechanics that favor bone shield, aside from the now-nerfed plasma blast). I prefer blood for XT, as the self-healing is nice through tantrum, though it's not really a tough tank healing fight; and Vezax easy is hardly worth mentioning. I mean, as I said before, Bone Shield is the strongest of the three cooldowns in most situations, but rarely (Steelbreaker) does that outweigh the stronger overall mitigation/avoidance from frost or higher EH from blood.

 

Griefknight

Are you saying you don't tank swap for Thorim?

Unholy is better for Mimiron because of Magic Suppression and AMZ, yes BS does help though. I said XT and Vezax because they are both hard hitting bosses and you won't really lose BS to anything besides there melee strikes. Going back to Thorim, assuming you get 7.5k HP from VB, BS will take 8k damage off of a 40k melee crit and still have 5 charges for other damage reduction.

 

Rakki

Speaking of Thorim, I have been wondering how his Unbalancing Strike would affect IBF, if at all. If it indeed does reduce IBF to a paltry 20%, Glyph of IBF would shine for this encounter.

I assume that it reduces IBF mitigation iff IBF is cast after Unb. Strike has landed. If it is cast before, IBF mitigation may not change, unless the value is updated at certain interval (something akin to our AP derived from Armor value).

 

Karede

Yeah, I can't imagine why you wouldn't simply tank swap here. Since you have to have two tanks for the fight to begin with (one for gauntlet and one or two for the arena) it doesn't make much sense why you wouldn't simply have your other tank taunt Thorim as soon as you get Unbalanced Strike.

I'm not sure I agree with you on Mimiron though. I've done the fight as both Unholy and Blood and found them to be pretty equal. It really depends on your DPS though. If they are a little on the slower side and you expect to get more than 3 plasma blasts, then Unholy is better, because of Bone Shield and AMZ. However, if you expect 3 or less Plasma Blast's then Blood is as good or better for the fight. IBF the first one, AMS and VB the second and the IBF the third. But that is a question of your DPS more than anything.

 

Reroller

From my experience tanking Thorim hard mode (pre nerf - or so I say, without the raid wide stacking MC buffs); This is far from feasible. His attack speed increases drastically and Unbalancing Strike is not on his swing timer. Weeks ago when we did this achievement, we were using CDs when unbalancing was about to hit us as a tank. What we did do to make things easier in the beginning is have our other tank (druid) glyph for Barkskin, apparently that prevents critical strikes while barkskin is active. The beginning was never a problem, it was 11-15 stacks that posed issues. Battle rezzes & soulstones were over used for us as we ended up downing the encounter. Unbalancing strikes + another melee hit within the same second were the things that caused issues, so timing IBF during an oncoming unbalancing strike + any trinkets is what really helped us get through this encounter initially, since you CAN dodge/parry/miss the Unbalancing Strike.

I had some jahnkee blood spec that sacrificed a little threat but allowed me to get AoTD to a 10 min CD and using that channel towards the end on an unbalancing strike was full of win.

Although each week now the encounter went from something we did once for the achievement to a now farmed hard mode since the MC stacks and make the encounter a joke.

 

Daedalix

You specc'd into Army of the Dead? Assuming your dodge + parry = 50%, it reduces damage by 50. Not worthy of pressing.

There's not much to tanking Thorim hardmode, it's more about your dps staying alive and not being gibbed by chain lightning near the end. Save your cooldowns for late in the fight and don't time them for early Unbalancing Strikes. Frost/Unholy/Blood all work here. Blood's EH helps more than cooldowns will. It really is among the easiest hardmodes.

The argument can be made for Unholy but that doesn't negate the original statement made on the previous page that Unholy can't "outpace" Blood. Unholy is equal at best and less optimal at worst.

Stay thirsty my friends.

 

• Darkside

How is a 50% (in reality it's probably closer to 60%) damage reduction not worth pressing?

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Morgannon

He thinks it's 50 damage, not 50%?

 

Myrx

He's likely assuming that if you were going to dodge/parry 50% of the time anyways that there's no reason to press it for 50% damage reduction.

Here's why you use Army:

1) Smoother incoming damage. You're shaving a good bit off of every incoming hit instead of taking spike damage like you would using your natural avoidance.
2) Predictable spikes. If you're about to take some large predictable spike of damage that can not be dodged or parried channeling Army is a surefire way to cut the damage when you have no other options. (Ex: Unbalancing Strike, Fusion Punch)
3) Non-physical damage. Dodge and parry only help against physical attacks, but Army will mitigate all incoming damage including non-physical.

It's a powerful tanking ability, but with the long refresh time it's best to save it for just the right time. Using it on a large predictable spike of damage near the end of a fight is probably the best application as a tank.

That being said I would never spec in to reducing the cool down as a Blood tank. You will be gimping yourself far too much. For what Army is good for you won't need it more than once every 20 minutes.

 

Griefknight

I don't think you can solo tank the Thorim fight at all anyways. I haven't tried solo tanking easy mode but each hard mode attempt either I die or our prot warrior dies. We actually had Thorim hit the prot warrior for a 37k unbalancing strike and at the same exact millisecond he got hit by a melee strike for 47k.

The reason Unholy is better is because Magic Suppression reduces all your damage taken through out the fight. You can IBF and AMS the first one, get a Pain Suppression for the 2nd one and used AMZ, and then IBF and AMS for the 3rd. If you do get a 4th then you'll need some outside CD or an OT to taunt and use his or her shieldwall ability.

I don't think that VB and AMS would work on hard mode for a Plasma Blast but I haven't tried it so I can't really say.

 

Myrx

I solo tank 10 man Thorim hard mode because we don't use a tank in the arena, but in 25 man I only tank him about 75% of the time. If it is possible to solo tank now it likely won't be when 3.2 rolls around and IBF becomes a 2 minute cool down. It's just easier when you use the tanking cool downs that the other tank on the fight has instead of wasting them all of phase 2.

Edit: @Grief: I tank hard mode Mimiron as Blood, and during the second Plasma Blast I get wings from a Holy Priest. I have Vampiric Blood up during this one, and after 2 or 3 ticks of Plasma Blast I pop AMS to let the healers catch up. When I do this 90% of the time the wings don't get used. Take that for what you will.

 

Griefknight

Do you do it as Blood for convenience of not having to respec for a fight or two or because you view Blood as a better choice for the fight?

 

Vynn

I've done Mimiron hard mode in 10 man as blood and as frost. They both bring something to the table, but I preferred blood because it was very useful in every phase. Not to mention the 10% AP and hysteria are very nice for beating the enrage timer.

We had a disc priest who would Pain Supp the 2nd plasma blast. IBF the 1st and 3rd obviously, and if you hit a fourth, well expect to have problems beating the enrage. The blast has also been nerfed once since our first firefighter kill, so maybe a smaller cooldown (VB + AMS) is enough to survive the 2nd plasma.

I really found DRM to be useful in phase 3, to pick up all of the adds and to get the most threat possible on them in case of a bad silence (which no longer happens on 10..and reduced in 25).

 

Myrx

I view Blood as a superior spec, and can't justify respeccing to Unholy for Mimiron. I don't think Magic Suppression is worth it compared to what I would lose from Blood, and Unholy is also the worst spec for single target threat. If you can make a decent argument for Unholy on that fight I'll consider it, but I'm not even close to dying on that fight and that's including in phase 4 when I'm tanking the head and the tank.

 

teiglin

This was discussed briefly, but I was talking about 10m, where I tank Thorim the whole time. I hadn't really thought about it, but I suppose the healers have an easier time spamming me between raid healing than they would dealing with tank swaps. I don't tank 25m Thorim, but we do tank swap there; I agree with those who suggested that not swapping tanks gives a high likelihood of the tank getting effectively one-shot.

I'll add one more point about VB since you seem to be equating it with a 7.5k heal. If it increased health and healing taken by 15% both, it would be very similar to an ability that reduced damage taken by 13%. The differences would be the start/end behavior, since you gain the health at the start and potentially lose health when it ends, and vs. abilities like tantrum that deal a percentage of maximum health). The initial heal has a strong value as an emergency button that IBF, BS, and UA lack, and the stronger healing taken is nearly as good as further damage reduction for situations where you're not getting killed--your healers are healing you as if you took 26% less damage. Tack on its guaranteed 30s duration, and I think it's quite reasonable to call it at least as strong as bone shield in many situations and always better than UA.

 

Griefknight

Wouldn't it be worth mentioning Bloods ability to self heal through DS and Rune Tap and is there any reason WotN isn't being mentioned?

Lets just assume this really is a Endgame tanking thread, can we considered Bloods dependency on Sunder/Expose armor a weakness in the spec when every endgame guild should be sure they supply that buff? Yes not having it is bad but not having Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, or any of the other raids buffs for that matter is just as bad. I'm not saying it shouldn't be noted but just that it shouldn't be a weakness.

You may want to consider adding Improved Frost Presence to the Damage reduction list.

You may want to consider adding Magic Suppression to the Damage reduction list.


Bone Shield is in the damage reduction list but its a cooldown just like VB, IBF, UA, AMS, AMZ, MoB, RT, WotN, and AotD. Wouldn't it be better to take it out and then make a list of the CDs, which spec provides which, and how useful each CD is or maybe how useless it is?

----------------

It looks like the S7 weapon may have a shot at being the BiS weapon for stamina just like the current S6 weapon is.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...7_10048_37.jpg
I highly doubt anyone would actually consider using it over a iLvL 258 weapon though, especially if there is Voldrethar 2.0 in the Coliseum raid.

 

Taizu

He was saying that, Blood is much more self reliant on raid buffs/debuffs than Frost/unholy.
Being frost, not having a warrior to sunder/rogue to expose is not gonna hurt me as much as it would if I were blood.

On a sidenote, how would blood perform in ulduar 10 hard mode without sunder? My guild has no active warrior now. Given that blood is much more superior for Vezax HM, can I tank as blood without sunders? Would it severely gimp my TPS as opposed to frost?

 

Griefknight

I was able to tank 10man Ulduar as Blood with no Warrior for about a month. I really can't say a lot about 10man Ulduar because I haven't done it in about a month but when I did do it weekly I was able to keep threat on all the bosses just fine without a warrior and when we did get a warrior I don't think he kept sunder up much unless I begged him to do it. I only had that warrior for maybe one week as well .

 

pindle

I recently respecced from Frost to Blood for exactly Vezax hard mode. We had no tank applying sunders, but think we did have imp FF up (quite sure even). My TPS actually went up a little bit compared to frost so that should be nothing to worry about, unless you're already having severe problems keeping ahead of the magic dps.

 

Teyrocar

Considering the recent Mimiron nerfs I don't view Mim 10 hard mode as a very good gauge of end-game tank superiority. We just did it with a Prot Paladin with no 3rd cooldown.

 

Karede

I think it is still a weakness, even if you can assume that you will have the debuff put up by someone in raid. 10-mans will often not have a sunder/expose (arms warrior and rarely a rogue to be had in my 10-mans) and regardless of whether you are getting it from someone else, it is a weakness of the spec that it can't provide it for itself. Because as Blood you rely so heavily on physical damage for aggro, if you don't have that it makes aggro management more challenging. It won't usually be an issue, but on some fights where you have top DPS blasting out 5-7K on a 10-man, not having that will hurt. A lot. And because it only highly effects this spec of DK tanking (I wouldn't be nearly as concerned with that as Frost or Unholy because of a much higher % of magic damage) it is a weakness of this spec in particular.

 

concept84

I tank 10m hard modes and on almost every fight even without a sunder I have better TPS than Frost, although not by much, but definitely enough to allow my dps to go balls out and not worry about pulling aggro.

10m hard modes are rough to gauge anything on though. For example last night I was dpsing XT hard mode and our tank DC'd halfway through and I was able to pick it up and tank it as Blood DPS spec with just frost presence for the kill.

Overall though my guild has noticed Blood to have superior or equal TPS to Frost with or without the sunder and better adapted to most of the fights in Ulduar over the other two builds.

 

Griefknight

We can't really hand pick a few hard modes and as far as I'm concerned all the hard modes are considered endgame until new content and new hard modes are released. I'm not saying 10man Firefighter isn't a joke for a competent group of 10 players with a bit of 25man gear but its still endgame.

@People: You don't really need sunder for 10man because your DPS will also be missing buffs and thus they will do less damage and generate less threat.

 

Karede

Not necessarily the case. A normal 10-man group for me is as follows: Me and a druid tank/kitty dps, Holy Paladin, Holy/Disc. Priest, Warlock (1 or 2), Mage (1 or 2), Moonkin, Elemental Shaman, Hunter, Ret paladin or Arms warrior. My guild has a lot of casters in it and are very rarely melee heavy, especially on 10-man. It's not at all uncommon for the only melee to be me and the OT druid. Those casters are getting every buff they really need. All they would really be missing is possibly a second pally buff if we don't bring in the ret.

Now, this may not be the standard group for most, but I assure you, in a situation like that, not having sunders HURTS. Even when it's the arms warrior there it hurts because it would destroy his DPS to provide them.

This is generally only a problem on fights where the DPS gets massive buffs that the tank doesn't (Vezax or Hodir) but it can be a problem.

 

teiglin

Honestly, your arms warrior should be sundering even if there is no other melee. It costs 5 GCDs at the start of the fight, costing maybe 25k damage (less if you allow a slow-ish ramp-up weaving in rend/OP), and subsequently gives a ~8.6% increase to all physical damage taken at the cost of another ~4k damage every 25 seconds, conservatively. In a fairly short (say, Hodir at 3min), your raid only needs to be doing 3400 sunder-relevant dps for it to be better, and I'm sure your warrior is doing that himself. In a _very_ short fight (Mimiron p1 at, say, 70s), you'd need about 5500 sunder-relevant dps, which I bet you plus your arms warrior provide together. Your feral, hunter, and retadin are also benefiting from the sunders. Sundering is to his advantage as well as the raid's. It is a pain in the ass as an arms warrior--I know from experience--but it is well worth it in any situation that could be considered "sustained" dps.

One other nice note about blood threat--you get a pretty hefty boost from self-healing on death strike and (if you have it) rune tap, to the point that I will always try to time my death strikes right after a boss swing. Obviously at some point you're going to be losing TPS by waiting, but I might push back on a DS when I have good alternative GCD uses if I'm topped off and not expecting a swing right away.