You deal damage in 4 ways, Autoattack, Rune based abilities and Runic Power based abilities.
- Autoattack with BP as well as impUP should be around the same, as you will see a 15% dps increse, even though blood is a little bit ahead here, maybe, especially when you come to think of BCB..
- Rune Based abilities should end up about 6% lower with impUP than with BP.
- Dots / Proccs (not really improved by impUP)
- Runic Power Abilities will be used more often as you use the rotation more often. I needed to redo this part: Rotation Part 1 PS,IT,SS,BS,BS,UB,DC, Rotation Part 2 SS,SS,SS,DC,DC,DC. With this rotation you will have part 1 taking your GCD untill 10,5 Seconds have past, but due to the way runes do refresh, this is yet no drawback, as you will have you GCD and runes ready after exactly 20 Seconds. The problem is, that in this way ou only got 0,5 Seconds every 20 seconds for the game or your pc to take some extra time. This means less than 0,05s per cast as extra time. That should be noticed when decoding for or against impUP. Another thing that is interesting when you shoul want to use impUP, are 2 poinzts in RPM, giving you the option to cast up to 4 dumps in a row. Next to that, HoW is granting you some RP boost and will be needed in fights longer than 3 minutes anyways. On top of that you can consider bringing in Ghoul frenzy, using one of the 2 Bloodrunes you get after using 2 death runes for a SS, makes you lose about no time/runes at all.
Lots of things to think about, but all in all impUP is going to be at least very close to BP, if not superior, if my thoughts are correct.
You deal damage in 3 ways, Autoattack, Rune based abilities and Runic Power based abilities.
- Autattack with BP as well as impUP should be around the same, as you will see a 15% dps increse, even though blood is a little bit ahead here, maybe.
- Rune Based abilities should end up about 6% lower with impUP than with BP.
(10% faster Rune recovery means that you will get every rune 1/10th more often to use, except for Death Runes, of those, most likely only one will recover 1/10th faster.
This means out of 12 runes you only get 11 to refresh faster, thus your rune based dps should increase by sth close to 9,1%. You lack about 6% dps here compared to BP.)
- Runic Power Abilities are not empowered by impUP at all, but the GCD is.
You're repeating what has already been said here and in the tree threads, including mistakes.
Runes will refresh in 9 seconds rather than 10, which is a 11.11% increase. I'm not sure what you mean about only getting 11 out of every 12 runes.
Your RP abilities are empowered, as was also mentioned earlier by someone else: you gain RP 11.11% faster.
Incidentally, you deal damage in many more than those 3 ways (pets, dots, procs, trinkets...).
You're repeating what has already been said here and in the tree threads, including mistakes.
Runes will refresh in 9 seconds rather than 10, which is a 11.11% increase. I'm not sure what you mean about only getting 11 out of every 12 runes.
Your RP abilities are empowered, as was also mentioned earlier by someone else: you gain RP 11.11% faster.
Incidentally, you deal damage in many more than those 3 ways (pets, dots, procs, trinkets...).
Whilst you were reading and posting, I already worked on the RP-Style part, still seems to need some updating though.
The 11,11% more damage is ok, indeed. For the RP, I always considered the extra RP as needed for the faster rotation, but indeed that grants you 11,11% more runic power styles, plus as mentioned any styles you can fit in with RP that could not be dumped with BP. For the 11 of 12 Runes to refresh, was just a thing i grabbed up in here before, but on the second thought, it`s not right, thanks so far for letting me think over it again, I will update the post so far (btw I should have looked through this Thread more closely, but as my interest lies in the upcoming patch changes on UP, I kinda thought the question would best be found/answered here, so I went to this thread).
The Question I have is, will impUP be superior to BP? The great problem in this question is the fact, that I cannot say how much time I lose, when I use my normal rotation, if it is theoreticaly doable in 20 seconds, I am about 100% sure, that normaly you won`t be able to do it in that time, but that`s the point were I wanted to read some oppinions about, how much does your 20s rotation take in real?
The real question is, now that Howling Blast is 50% instead of 100%, will it even be worth speccing into it for DPS?
Don't forget that they also nerfed the Frost Fever that doubled the damage on HB has now been set down to 20%, wich is a huge nerf. And for me who loved seing the numbers fly on trash mobs, this sure is a sad day for me. In my eyes, HB will not be a talent worth speccing in to.
If you're using a 2h weapon, or a >2.2s 1h weapon, you will see BCB procs cut in exactly 1/2 with raid buffs.
If you're using a 1.5s 1h weapon, you will see BCB procs cut into exactly 1/3 if your non-windfury (gear haste, ITT talent, unholy presence) haste product does not exceed 1.25. For example, if you use unholy presence (1.15), and you have the ITT talent(1.05), you need to have 3.5% (1.035) or less gear haste to dodge this threshold.
If you exceed this threshold, your effective swing dips beneath 1.0s, and your procs are cut into exactly 1/4. A 1.6s weapon adds a generous 9% more haste to the threshold between 1/3 and 1/4.
What a stupid mechanic.
Ohh man, you have no idea. The TBC enh shaman thread devoted hundreds of nerd-hours to figuring out how the windfury cooldown worked and never agreed on where exactly haste becomes devalued. You're right that gaining a tiny bit of haste rating at a very specific weapon speed might reduce your DPS, but there's no way of knowing where that point is and it seems to vary from swing to swing. Base swing timers vary constantly by a tenth of a second or so (not because of haste procs, just some weirdness with the game itself), and it's been repeatedly demonstrated that the 3 second cooldown on shaman windfury is, sometimes, shorter than 3 seconds. Unless something has changed, there's no way to pinpoint an exact weapon speed where your BCB proc rate falls off. You're looking for a gradual dropoff between about 3.1-2.9 swing speed.
Also, your math on how BCB interacts with haste assumes a 100% proc rate rather than the correct 30%. 2h specs should expect to lose about a quarter of their BCB damage, not half.
Live: On average, it will take you 100 swings to get 30 BCB procs. Proc rate 30%.
PTR: It will take you 100 swings *while off cooldown* to get 30 BCB procs. Each BCB proc will be followed by one swing during the cooldown which is ineligible to proc. Counting swings made while on cooldown, you will average 130 swings per 30 BCB procs. Effective proc rate ~23%.
Ohh man, you have no idea. The TBC enh shaman thread devoted hundreds of nerd-hours to figuring out how the windfury cooldown worked and never agreed on where exactly haste becomes devalued. You're right that gaining a tiny bit of haste rating at a very specific weapon speed might reduce your DPS, but there's no way of knowing where that point is and it seems to vary from swing to swing. Base swing timers vary constantly by a tenth of a second or so (not because of haste procs, just some weirdness with the game itself), and it's been repeatedly demonstrated that the 3 second cooldown on shaman windfury is, sometimes, shorter than 3 seconds. Unless something has changed, there's no way to pinpoint an exact weapon speed where your BCB proc rate falls off. You're looking for a gradual dropoff between about 3.1-2.9 swing speed.
Also, your math on how BCB interacts with haste assumes a 100% proc rate rather than the correct 30%. 2h specs should expect to lose about a quarter of their BCB damage, not half.
Live: On average, it will take you 100 swings to get 30 BCB procs. Proc rate 30%.
PTR: It will take you 100 swings *while off cooldown* to get 30 BCB procs. Each BCB proc will be followed by one swing during the cooldown which is ineligible to proc. Counting swings made while on cooldown, you will average 130 swings per 30 BCB procs. Effective proc rate ~23%.
Spoken like a veteran of idiotic mechanics. If this remains, we can at least feel lucky that BCB does not have nearly the importance of windfury weapon.
My character has not copied over yet, but I wondered if anybody took a closer look on Deathstrike. It seems rather powerful to me.
it receives huge modifiers :
+30% damage imp DS
+30% crit damage from MoM
+30% crit damage from Viscious strikes ( and 6% crit)
+2% damage every 5 rp from Glyph ( + 52% damage with 130 rp or +40% with 100)
Are the CritDamage modifiers cumulated to simply 60%, or +30% +30% (which is better)? I cant think of any other class where the same skill receives additional criticalstrike damage from 2 seperate talents. That's why I´m asking.
Could it be a viable choice for a dpsrotation or pvp over Obliterate ? I mean it is not like you have to make a choice anyway, since you wouldn't have to go out of your way if you wanted to "spec" for deathstrike. It utilizes the "usual suspects"-talents, except the 2 in imp DS.
Not to mention the amount of healing it creates with talents like improved blood presence
Now that patch 3.1 will also release a glyph that increases the duration of Unholy Blight by 10 seconds, will it still not out dmg DRW? Id like to hear your guys thoughts about it. and IF it would, wouldnt 50-0-21 be the new spec from heaven?
From short testing it feels viable for 51/0/20 with diseases. However it is hard to test at the moment with so many bugs around (DRW too short duration, OB not generating RP - again). Also you can forgot about 130 RP - getting that you not taking perma ghoul (or DRW) and loose way too much dps.
Overall I don't understand why 2h Unholy got buffed (gained 10% dps on dummy) and 2h Blood seems nerfed (not sure about 2h Frost - Blood of the North and OB are bugged).
Originally Posted by Talbinessa
Now that patch 3.1 will also release a glyph that increases the duration of Unholy Blight by 10 seconds, will it still not out dmg DRW? Id like to hear your guys thoughts about it. and IF it would, wouldnt 50-0-21 be the new spec from heaven?
There is no way that UB would be bigger gain than DRW. It is slightly better than DC (RP/dmg) on single target and good for aoe, not some super skill from heavens like DRW or Garg
Those notes were just updated to what we can see in current PTR build. Most likely original patchnotes were from some older build. At least seeing old notes you can see what they tried to do but didn't work. Also seems like Outbreak is intended, maybe pets will get nerfed? Like AotD for example, but then why nerfs to other specs?
I saw a comment on the main WoW boards that the sigil of frozen conscience was nerfed down to around 111 over the current 203. Can anyone on the PTR verify this?
In other news, how is Deep Frost 2h DPS, is it comparable to Deep Unholy? I was thinking something along the lines of 20/51/0 if it's still viable, but I don't know much about the current 2h tree comparison, so I don't know what the discrepancy between the two post-patch would be. I think frost looks very attractive, and I'm glad they dumped Oblit on the T7 set bonus (maybe I'll start using that bonus, fancy that).
2H deep frost is going through... changes... and by changes it means that probably a large number of people might switch to 2H unholy, because... why not? Only thing frost brings to the table is AoE snare w/ HB glyph and chillbains. With that said, they made HB a 51 pt talent and nerfed it into oblivion. On a good note, they buffed FS, which might make up for the change to our rotation... maybe... maybe.
So, if the WoR link is accurate, they've completely reversed the changes to Black Ice, as well as Glacier Rot, but BotN is now 3 points instead of 5?
This is going to be a bumpy ride, methinks.
The patch notes are just general guidelines until the live version. At this moment, the talent tree linked on mmo-champion ( just an example, nothing against WoR) reflects the current state of PTR.
That said, on current PTR version, BotN is 5 points, reflecting the additional 15% bonus to FS.
I saw a comment on the main WoW boards that the sigil of frozen conscience was nerfed down to around 111 over the current 203. Can anyone on the PTR verify this?
2H deep frost is going through... changes... and by changes it means that probably a large number of people might switch to 2H unholy, because... why not? Only thing frost brings to the table is AoE snare w/ HB glyph and chillbains. With that said, they made HB a 51 pt talent and nerfed it into oblivion. On a good note, they buffed FS, which might make up for the change to our rotation... maybe... maybe.
To be honest, I think I like the changed trees more than the "original" versions. Sure, Howling Blast got a nerf that it didn't necessarily need (at 51pts) but Hungering Cold at 21 (31?) feels much better. Ditto with the new Unbreakable Armor; while it may simply be "DK Shield Block LOL" for tanking, it's also a 500-800 AP clicky for DPS which is compatible to the Blood and UH high damage, short duration clickies (DRW & Garg). I'm intentionally theorycrafting a rotation with on-cooldown use of UA in mind now that it's actually really solid.
The second thing I'm working on is paper-napkining whether IT/PS (rougly equal to 2x old IT damage) + BS is more or less damage than OB (+ 0 damage Pest). Initial numbers say no; however, OB/3.0 is more DPS than (IT PS BS)/4.5 so we have to look at whether we're GCD capped again or not. Basically, there's a bit more to think about than just "How do I generate maximum RP in Blood Presence without using too many GCDs to use most of it?". Not a ton more--it does eventually boil down to that--but there is a little bit more depth and flexibility than there was previously.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
2H deep frost is going through... changes... and by changes it means that probably a large number of people might switch to 2H unholy, because... why not? Only thing frost brings to the table is AoE snare w/ HB glyph and chillbains. With that said, they made HB a 51 pt talent and nerfed it into oblivion. On a good note, they buffed FS, which might make up for the change to our rotation... maybe... maybe.
Honestly, I think 2H frost's dps will go up on boss fights. Frost Strike was always more than 30% of my total damage done to bosses whereas I only used HB on rime procs and had a spare gcd to use it (seldom). The new UA giving us a 25% str increase for 20 seconds will also help with that - with my current gear it will give me an extra 330 strength - that's a huge buff. I'll definitely be trying 2h frost out since that is my favorite spec - once they fix oblit's inability to generate rp...
It's a shame Blizz decided to lower the damage on HB, especially after moving it to the 51 point talent. I can't see it making it's way through the PTR unchanged however. I can see them either increasing the base damage it does, removing it's cooldown, or increasing it's FF multiplier. No way Blizz goes through and buffs all our other 51 point talents and nerfs this one. I think it just got caught up their desire to "fix" DW builds and they over killed it.
As for the pestilence glyph - I am guessing it's a major, since I still have my current minor pestilence glyph equipped and I can't get into Dalaran without WoW crashing. For 2h frost, I can't see it being that useful, mainly if you are the one bringing imp icy talons. I was trying to envision a rotation that would incorporate it and still maintain the uptime of icy talons but couldn't. Now, if you have an enhance shaman (or are content with the regular WF) then I can see that glyph being more useful.
Frost strike is incredibly powerful now. In my testing it was a large portion of my DPS. I tested a deep frost build using unholy presence, and even with no FS glyph it was #1 dps, even using DW/Blood Prsence it was just barely 3rd, 400 damage behing Icy Touch.
That said Scourge Strike is pretty ridiculous right now too...
Ohh man, you have no idea. The TBC enh shaman thread devoted hundreds of nerd-hours to figuring out how the windfury cooldown worked and never agreed on where exactly haste becomes devalued. You're right that gaining a tiny bit of haste rating at a very specific weapon speed might reduce your DPS, but there's no way of knowing where that point is and it seems to vary from swing to swing. Base swing timers vary constantly by a tenth of a second or so (not because of haste procs, just some weirdness with the game itself), and it's been repeatedly demonstrated that the 3 second cooldown on shaman windfury is, sometimes, shorter than 3 seconds. Unless something has changed, there's no way to pinpoint an exact weapon speed where your BCB proc rate falls off. You're looking for a gradual dropoff between about 3.1-2.9 swing speed.
Also, your math on how BCB interacts with haste assumes a 100% proc rate rather than the correct 30%. 2h specs should expect to lose about a quarter of their BCB damage, not half.
Live: On average, it will take you 100 swings to get 30 BCB procs. Proc rate 30%.
PTR: It will take you 100 swings *while off cooldown* to get 30 BCB procs. Each BCB proc will be followed by one swing during the cooldown which is ineligible to proc. Counting swings made while on cooldown, you will average 130 swings per 30 BCB procs. Effective proc rate ~23%.
With this in mind, might we just skip the talent in a deep unholy build? As someone mentioned, it's not nearly as important as windfury was to shaman. I can see forgoing a 5% dps talent that works counter-intuitively to our itemization.
this was going to be my idea for 2h unholy pve, however what about throwing the BCB points into morbidity? That way, we avoid large headaches and dps optimization curves.
02/24/09, 9:53 PM
