Pestilence – this spell no longer causes damage but just spreads diseases. Blood Boil is intended to be the general area attack, and has been changed to be castable on targets with no diseases on them, but does extra damage if diseases are present.
Until now this is my favourite of the changes. I think this will change the way of AOE dps even for a 2h Frost DPS (like in my case 23-48) entirely. As Outbreak gets extremely interesting then, build and rotation change seems to be the step of Blizzard is taking. Apparently they realised a Frost Fever only as Deep Frost, or diseaseless rotations as Blood were not quite intended.
I dunno if it will be moved but something has to be done with it. With the Gar change currently all 51 point talents in all trees have no tanking viability.
So? It's never been said that 51pt talents had to be viable for PvP, DPS and tanking. Most of the best tanking talents are spread throughout the middle of the trees anyways, so you usually end up with a hybrid spec; this will only become more prevalent now that UB is a 21pt talent.
Is it just me, or the new UA is a cloned BA in the style of Shield Slam vs Shield of Righteousness?
And last time i checked, no DK is getting to the armor cap anytime soon, with the glyphed UA, armor pots and inspiration procs.
I can hit 73% on a mob my level just standing in IF with a pot and unbreakable armor + trinket. Thats not counting Glyph, inspiration, Devotion Aura, MoTW, and elixir. Plus ive seen dks with more standard armor than me. Unbreakable armor also gave no magic mitigation at all. Depending on the numbers the buff seems good. At least in my opinion.
So? It's never been said that 51pt talents had to be viable for PvP, DPS and tanking. Most of the best tanking talents are spread throughout the middle of the trees anyways, so you usually end up with a hybrid spec; this will only become more prevalent now that UB is a 21pt talent.
Yes it seems thats the way things are going, but that could be because there are no 51 points worth taking. I believe a while back blizzard was trying to stop people from taking an over abundance of lower tier talents from all trees and encouraging to spec deeper. You say "so what". I say why not ? Currently no one pvps 51 points into frost " as far as i know " most are a unholy spec. Right now hungering cold is not being used at all and is on its way to being a dead talent, but hey "so what" we all tri-spec for tanking 20/20/21 is the best spec ( trips and falls over a guy named sarcasm).
UB being moved could be bloods answer to more AOE threat, but the question is how good will UB be with out all the unholy tree's modifiers to increase its damage. Blood is a profound physical tree. Granted its not like the runic power was going to be spent on another aoe ability. On top of that i wonder if the standard diseaseless rotation of HS-HS-OB-OB RD (repeat) will be sensible with the changes to sudden doom. It could be better to throw out more HS's now.
Pretty interesting changes and some quite expected ones. Was expecting to see gargoyle change earlier and this will kill dw in current form. We however don't know anything about other changes so can't directly say that dw is dead. Blood had too much expertise so blood gorged talent change makes sense they have claimed about doing some for arp & haste for melee.
UA change also hopefully is good one and absorbing magic damage too so would make frost and unholy tanking more par with each others. So far changes look good and they make sense.
The Blood Boil change is interesting. If it's still going to be 30y range, not requiring diseases is... well, I can only assume it won't work on stealthers (though I can dream ).
Also very pleased to see Blood of the North finally dropped to 3 points. I kind of wonder if BotN and KM will be exchanging positions - safe to say KM is going to be deeper and BotN's current tier will need a 5-pointer.
The Blood Boil change is interesting. If it's still going to be 30y range, not requiring diseases is... well, I can only assume it won't work on stealthers (though I can dream ).
Also very pleased to see Blood of the North finally dropped to 3 points. I kind of wonder if BotN and KM will be exchanging positions - safe to say KM is going to be deeper and BotN's current tier will need a 5-pointer.
I was thinking this as well. I'm expecting either Killing Machine or Black Ice to wind up in Blood of the North's current spot in the tree.
I really hope they make some strike changes like making BS/OB swing with both weapons as WW does. Something to give DW some more spec diversity, as the current builds are too similar. If DW is really supposed to be viable from their standpoint it should really be able to glean a decent benefit out of all of our trees. We are still a melee class at the core of things, a heavily physical tree like Blood shouldn't be so offputting simply because of the weapon choice.
A side effect of the Unbreakable Armor change is nerfing it's power to frost dps as a pseudotrinket if you picked up bladed armor (which you should have). Just sitting here in dalaran im at about 14000 armor and almost 1100 strength. I am under the impression that UA double dips here too. Some quick napkin math tells me:
14000*.25=3500 additional armor
3500/180= 19.44
19.44*5=97.2 AP from bladed armor when UA is up.
---
1100*.1=110 additional strength
110*2= 220 AP
---
So, unbuffed, UA gets a decent chunk of its AP gain from the bonus armor. Of course the weight of the contribution from the bladed armor gain becomes much smaller in a raid situation with kings, FC/greatness procs, and all that good stuff. But for purposes of min/maxing there is a potential loss there.
I was thinking this as well. I'm expecting either Killing Machine or Black Ice to wind up in Blood of the North's current spot in the tree.
I really hope they make some strike changes like making BS/OB swing with both weapons as WW does. Something to give DW some more spec diversity, as the current builds are too similar. If DW is really supposed to be viable from their standpoint it should really be able to glean a decent benefit out of all of our trees. We are still a melee class at the core of things, a heavily physical tree like Blood shouldn't be so offputting simply because of the weapon choice.
I agree here. They've really (possibly purposefully) set everyone on their heels with just those two releases of changing the Frost tree and switching Gargoyle and UB up. I think they've made it clear they don't like how DW is currently with our hybrid'ing, and want to change it up.
Keep in mind they've announced some really big changes thus far (hunter ammo), and anything is within the realm of possibility. I very much doubt they will kill DW entirely or force us all to go 51 Unholy. It just doesn't feel like Blizzard to me given their WotLK actions thus far.
Regarding the viability of 51 point talents, I've definitely read where Ghostcrawler says they don't want the 51 point talents to feel wholly necessary (with the exception of Warrior TG), so I agree with the other poster that HC will remain where it is presently.
I think someone at Blizz gets some laughs out of everyone panicking. The only thing I have even a twinge of negativity for is that the DW (along with 2h) theorycrafters have worked very hard on coming up with viable specs thus far, and that's all going to be nearly turned upside down. Which, with an infantile class like this one, it's to be expected.
A side effect of the Unbreakable Armor change is nerfing it's power to frost dps as a pseudotrinket if you picked up bladed armor (which you should have). Just sitting here in dalaran im at about 14000 armor and almost 1100 strength. I am under the impression that UA double dips here too. Some quick napkin math tells me:
14000*.25=3500 additional armor
3500/180= 19.44
19.44*5=97.2 AP from bladed armor when UA is up.
---
1100*.1=110 additional strength
110*2= 220 AP
---
So, unbuffed, UA gets a decent chunk of its AP gain from the bonus armor. Of course the weight of the contribution from the bladed armor gain becomes much smaller in a raid situation with kings, FC/greatness procs, and all that good stuff. But for purposes of min/maxing there is a potential loss there.
AP from bladed armor updates every 30 seconds i believe. So i don't think UA really does anything for AP armor wise. As far as using it in a DPS rotation. It cost a rune to use UA. So you figure that frost rune could be used on something else for more dps say an extra icy touch ? I could be wrong on all this of course. I think blizzards intent was to make UA a defensive ability and is treated as such.
Originally Posted by Dev93L
Regarding the viability of 51 point talents, I've definitely read where Ghostcrawler says they don't want the 51 point talents to feel wholly necessary (with the exception of Warrior TG), so I agree with the other poster that HC will remain where it is presently.
I agree as well it should remain 51 points in the tree, but right now a blood dps spec 51 points is necessary for DRW, and soon a unholy DPS spec 51 points will be necessary for gar. 51 points into frost is unheard of, and while i say i don't think any 51 pointer should "define" the tree, i think the 51 pointer should be useful in some way for pve and pvp. Currently (in my personal opinion) hungering cold is not worth the 1 point it is required to take it.
AP from bladed armor updates every 30 seconds i believe. So i don't think UA really does anything for AP armor wise. As far as using it in a DPS rotation. It cost a rune to use UA. So you figure that frost rune could be used on something else for more dps say an extra icy touch ? I could be wrong on all this of course. I think blizzards intent was to make UA a defensive ability and is treated as such.
I was not aware of that bladed armor mechanic, that disregards my math then. As to clarification to its usage for dps: in a strike heavy frost rot, popping a BT quickly followed by UA grants a much higher dps increase than to use a BT to IT again. I don't know about the ITx6 rot, but i'd still assume the 10% str for 20secs would still far outweigh any dps gain from an additional IT.
I was not aware of that bladed armor mechanic, that disregards my math then. As to clarification to its usage for dps: in a strike heavy frost rot, popping a BT quickly followed by UA grants a much higher dps increase than to use a BT to IT again. I don't know about the ITx6 rot, but i'd still assume the 10% str for 20secs would still far outweigh any dps gain from an additional IT.
You should do the math for your own situation. For mine (ITx6), an additional IT handily beats UA, even assuming instant bladed armor updates. Keep in mind that IT grants 15 more RP than UA.
Pretty interesting changes and some quite expected ones. Was expecting to see gargoyle change earlier and this will kill dw in current form. We however don't know anything about other changes so can't directly say that dw is dead.
I don't think so.
Gargoyle was a bonus, but dual wield didn't gain its strength purely from gargoyle.
The core of DW lies in a combination of a bunch of talents including, but not limited to: Killing Machine / Black Ice / Howling Blast / (imp) Icy Talons / Necrosis / Impurity / Perma Ghoul
I think those are the backbone of dual wield. The only way dual wield would severely get damaged is if KM is taken way down the tree. Which is still a possibility.
TBH i think swapping gargoyle and UB is a good move for DW builds. Gargoyle is 30 seconds of burst every 3 minutes where you reduce the number of deathcoils you are able to throw out. UB is higher damage than deathcoil and can be easily woven into your deathcoil routine. On short fights we might see a damage reduction due to gargoyles burst, but in longer fights (which is likely what ulduar contains) we should see better damage.
There is no way they will move Hunger Cold higher up into the tree. A 10s, 1min CD AoE CC with no diminishing returns will ALWAYS be a 51pt talent. It's just way too good otherwise.
i believe GC stated that the budgets for talent does not take into account where it was located in the tree.
Hopefully Sudden Doom change will be enough to make Blood more fun to play. I think that it still need some deep talent to lower GCD (Blood Gorged would be good place) and/or change Heart Strike to 2 Blood Runes.
I ran tonight without a garg in the below parse. For Sarth I was on drake tank duty in a spec designed for 6 min mal, which we didn't end up doing tonight. I switched out to the spec that should be showing on the armory now when we killed Sarth and moved over to Naxx. Many fights I didn't have bloodlust. I used no pots. Overall it was a lazy night.
End result is without garg I'm sitting ~4500 dps without much effort nor optimal buffage on fights I can sit and just hit my castsequence macro (as I said, it was a lazy night hehe). I picked up my mainhand tonight which should improve my damage. I didn't take the time to deathgate and put a runeforge on it until after the run.
I'm using a rotation of IT, PS, BB, BB, HB -> DC (+1 DC after the first rotation) -> IT, PS, IT, IT, HB -> DC, DC
I do a lot of respec'ing and I think I still have the Frost Strike and Obliterate glyphs that I need to swap out.
For clarification, I was 10/32/29 for the Naxx part of the run.
Originally Posted by Foxx2405
I don't think so.
Gargoyle was a bonus, but dual wield didn't gain its strength purely from gargoyle.
The core of DW lies in a combination of a bunch of talents including, but not limited to: Killing Machine / Black Ice / Howling Blast / (imp) Icy Talons / Necrosis / Impurity / Perma Ghoul
I think those are the backbone of dual wield. The only way dual wield would severely get damaged is if KM is taken way down the tree. Which is still a possibility.
Hopefully Sudden Doom change will be enough to make Blood more fun to play. I think that it still need some deep talent to lower GCD (Blood Gorged would be good place) and/or change Heart Strike to 2 Blood Runes.
Enlighten me, because I can't see how having automatic SD procs would make your gaming experience more fun. However, it would make it easier if anything, meaning you don't need to keep tracking procs.
Above I saw mention of Black Ice and BotN swapping places. If this happens, would a blood/frost hybrid be a potential for PvP? I could see getting DRM + BotN and having tons of death runes to play around with all the time.
Also, I don't see it necessary to spec 45/5/21 for blood tanking. I MT'd 10man naxx (I'm normall dps) as 47/14/10 and was fine on any AoE pull. Even with the change, I probably would not spec blood with UB.
Another point to make, what if KM is moved down? Could the PPM be buffed *slightly*? Maybe? Can hope for maybe 5.5-6 PPM =D
Enlighten me, because I can't see how having automatic SD procs would make your gaming experience more fun.
Right now Blood feels like Rogue with 1.5 sec GCD. Either amount of spam needs to be reduced (which will be with SD change) or GCD needs to be lowered. Granted some people may like how it is now but for myself and people I asked about Blood the problem was "too much spam" in rotations.
Is it just me, or the new UA is a cloned BA in the style of Shield Slam vs Shield of Righteousness?
And last time i checked, no DK is getting to the armor cap anytime soon, with the glyphed UA, armor pots and inspiration procs.
With no glyphed UA, no buff at all, I hit the cap with Ancestral Fort.
Enlighten me, because I can't see how having automatic SD procs would make your gaming experience more fun. However, it would make it easier if anything, meaning you don't need to keep tracking procs.
When you're dumping DCs in a 51/0/20 build your runic power will actually decrease at the same rate every time, instead of sometimes getting an SD proc and causing you to be unable to dump all your runic before runes refresh.
But uh, still not seeing why Blood needs GCD change at all. Do people like having deadtime in their rotation or something?
02/06/09, 3:26 AM
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