Ah... thought it was just for unholy. Strange, because I'm quite sure it has been at one point. My bad then.

Doesn't change anything though, since unholy also only has 2 diseases that cause damage.

How much damage was the Ghoul responsible for in each of these tests?

What glyphs were used for each build? How long was each test?

Personally I've had similar results with both blood and unholy both hitting the 3.3k dps mark over the course of 5 minutes, although the unholy build I employed was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.

I was under the impression that we were recieving an overall nerf to our total damage output with 3.1. After looking at the numbers here I do not see that to be the case. Are we actually putting out better dps than in 3.0 on the ptr? I have not been able to test any numbers out yet for myself on the ptr.

I believe certain builds are getting "nerfed" however certain others seem to be getting a slight bump. Mostly due to the perma-ghoul being more available to both deep Blood and Frost builds.

I wouldn't consider 0/10/61 the new unholy build just yet, as nobody has determined if it is better than 12/0/59. It has been hypothesized that 0/10/61 will scale better in time, but in terms of which is better for the start of 3.1 it is still questionable.

I'm saddened by the AMS nerf as well...no more staying out and laughing during Sapph breaths. =(

Though I guess it's part of the whole toning down of DK Tank CDs. Still, it's a pretty hefty nerf to an ability that was pretty situational in nature.

Hi guys. This is my first post after much lurking so please be gentle

I have been playing around in the PTR a bit with a variety of DPS builds (DW) 0/20/51 0/51/20 and 0/4x/2x trying to find one that still fits the same flavor I have now. No matter what I try my Icy Touch feels like it is much much softer. Informally I am seeing about a 33% drop in its DPS (based on a small sample size, less than 100 hitting same mobs both live and PTR). Non-crit value of 1k-1.5k PTR V 1.5k-2k live. Same gear. (Recount used to track combat, 1-6 mob fights with the arena area next to ebon hold)

Is this just the way it is? Do I need to make up my DPS with the new improved frost strike? Which I do like. Speaking of frost strike I am assume that moving from Avools Sword of Jin to the Titansteel Boncrusher will up frost strike a whole lot (going from fast/fast to slow/fast). My white damage I am guessing will stay about the same. (Based on weap DPS) = Will my procs for cinderglasier suffer for having the slower weapon speed? I’ll move Jin to my offhand replacing glasscutter (though keeping it in the bank in case of future need)

I don’t get to raid much do to work sched so my main focus is 5-man heroic, being able to do some old world content solo, ZG, magister, pet runs etc. Of course when the moons align and I get to go to a 10/25 man run I want to be as effective as possible. Pre 3.1 I have been very happy with WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator and WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator the first being more fun for me and the second doing a tad more DPS.

Do I just need to accept that icy touch, while still good, is just not going to be the same and adapt to a frost strike RP dump to make up the difference? My initial impression is the (3.1) 0/51/20 will net me more single target DPS and 0/20/51 will do much more AOE.

I am curious about +hit as well. With DW I know the strikes cap at 8% spells (now a lower part of my over all for DPS 51/20 more so 21/50) at 17%. Virulence is much easier to fit in, which helps, but for white damage the hit cap is over 900 at what point does the decrease in glancing blows / misses lose out to replacing +hit with +str for harder hits? Assuming that the Spell hit cap has been reached? If you could hit the +900 (or even +700) would that really increase DPS? (Much? I am assuming a diminishing return as the DW hit cap is approached) How about with a blood build where you aren’t really doing spell damage and the buffed up AP and crits made the white hits even harder?

These are all ideas I am trying to fit into the 3.1 changes. Right now I am at about 470 +hit and I plan to switch out my three JC gems (+27 hit each) for +Str when I respec for 3.1 thinking that will make a much better stat.

Is the Icy touch based hard hitting ZOT rotation dead? Or at least gasping for air?
Thanks for commentary and ideas.

** Edit

Just jumped on the PTR, new patch upped black ice to a 20% boost from 10%. Which has braught back some damage. I also wonder how much of the diferance is from the change to my Sigil. Adds 111 to icy touch now, was what 202? Before. With some hope maybe a higher level of the Sigil will be available in the future.

The buff to Melee haste is going to help with procs and damage some as well I would hope. I really do like frost strike now.

1. "Old" Unholy 17/0/54 - Scourge Strike, Ghoul, Dark Death
2. Unholy 0/10/61 - Scourge Strike, Ghoul, Dark Death
3. "Old" Blood 51/13/7 - DRW, Death Strike, Blood Strike (I know i didn't recived bonus from this glyph cause dummy wasn't snared)
4. Frost 3/52/16 - Frost Strike, Ghoul, Howling Blast
5. Blood 51/2/18 - Ghoul, Dark Death, Blood Strike (I know i didn't recived bonus from this glyph cause dummy wasn't snared)


I spent over 120mins on tests so it should be 20+ minutes for each spec

my ptr char is kinda outgeared compared to live char i.e I'm using Armagedoon and few ilvl200 items but I had Sigil of Awareness.

I'm sorry I don't remember.

True, but we need some usefull build when 3.1 will hit and we will have only ilvl213 maybe with ulduar gear it will be better but to get gear from Ulduar we need to kill bosses using ilvl213 gear

Useless talent if that goes live I have to say, DPS wise I think it would be good idea to spec for unholy blight instead.

...So, where was the 12/0/59 build in your testing? Since it's being more and more accepted as the starting spec for Unholy going into 3.1. Though 0/10/61 may overtake it as we gear.

Not to change the topic entirely but did anyone notice that the DK DPS tier is now finished on MMO? It looks like they itemized the battleplate much better this time around, as it has expertise on it instead of haste.

Well overall nothing major change really old set has 2 x haste + 3xhit pieces, new has 1xhaste 1xarp 1xexp and 2xhit. Slighty better but then 2 R 1 Y 4 B sockets... while old set has 2 R 2 Y 2 B. Well if you will put str gem to every slot regardless of color then it doesn't matter and JC'ers will be happy to get extra dps stats from some socket bonuses.

What do you guys think about that almost all ulduar items got armor penetration stat? And i think that isnt improve IT or SS, so it scales better if you are blood specced (or maybe frost)?

Edit: never mind, both DRW and the glyph appear to be unchanged entirely. Only the tooltips have changed.

Ebon Plague stacking appears to be fixed. I'm seeing my own application of it and someone else's on the Ebon Hold boss dummy and I'm hitting Scourge Strikes for the same amount when someone else also has Ebon Plague up.

With the Nerf to AMS I know that people will think that on release of Uldaar that Sarth 3D will be old content but guilds would probably still go and do this etc for the Drake for members and other fun.

The problem I see with this is that it will make it Totally impossible to Survive a Sarth breath when Twilight Torment is up using just AMS alone. This will obviously put massive strain in a 10 Man situtation...

Is Blizzard trying to push people to take portals in 10 Man and Even 25 man 3D attempts? If so they need to Increase the timer on the Breaths from Sarth Significantly to even make the encounter remotely possible with anything other than a Druid Tank now... correct me if I am wrong on this please

Basically the way I see it is that potentially in the best uldaar gear a DK tank might have 46K-48K health buffed and 50% of that is only 24K maximum absorbed. Factor in some of the other abilties we could use if we go with the Standard Blood Tanking build we now currently use Will of the Necropolis a 75K breath is reduced by 11250, if Spell Deflection Procs it's reduced by an additional 11250. That means before AMS is applied to this we are still taking a breath for 52500 applying AMS to this in the new format it would only absorb up to 24K maximum in best possible conditions meaning we still are going to take a Significant hit from the breath around 28K. Mind you this is in a best possible Scenario with Spell Deflection also Procing otherwise without Spell Deflection proc the DK will be instantly killed with a 38K+ Breath.

I would also like to know if this AMS(50%) is going from the Modified health value you have in 3 Drakes while the Auras are up as this will be critical because it will significantly reduce the amount of damage absorbed from the breath.

Basically we are going to have to use a combination of AMS + Outside Cooldown or AMS + IBF which means we an only survive 1 breath on our own and will require a lot more ppl in the raid with the tools to keep tanks alive during the Breaths (Paladins, Priests appropriately spec'd).

I honestly think that Blizzard hasn't thought these changes through and the impact it will have on Sarth 3D. It is also probably going to make encounters like Freya with Adds etc much much harder.

Believe it or not but Sarth 3d can actually be done with any tanking class as MT (and has been done a lot of times), it was just alot easier with a DK. Now DKs are just on a more equal ground in terms of Sarth 3d tanking.

The reason for the change is the Mimiron encounter because a talented AMS allowed for exploit like use (like surviving 1mio damages) as GC has stated in a recent blue post

I tank Sarth using frost resistance gear and the hybrid unholy builds. By my math using my current 24/11/36 spec (though no point in getting Lichborne in 3.1 heh) I'll still be able to tank Sarth+3 easily, with just the following changes:

1. Can't use a Bone Shield during Shadron Gift of Twilight breaths. I currently don't need to, can survive those breaths without any cooldown, but a Bone Shield is helpful and it will be back up when you need it in a minute anyway. With a 2 minute CD it needs to be saved.

2. Shadron + Vesperon breaths will be IBF + HP trinket, BS + AMS, BS + AMZ; and I'm hoping 3 unassisted breaths is sufficient for Shadron to be down and the danger to be past.

It's an annoying change but I'm more annoyed by the loss of passive magical resistance.

I'm curious how the pestilence glyph will factor in for blood/frost. I have tried to test it ont he PTR but it was broken last time I checked...

Essentially

PS, IT, HS, HS, DS
to open, then
4X HS, DS
3XHS, Pestilence, DS...

But i'm not sure if heart strike on its own is greater than PS + IT

Also someone brought up an interesting point about the changes to DRW, if they do go live like that, then maybe unholy blight would be better. Could also use the unholy blight glyph which is much nicer than DRW glyph now (50% longer duration)

I'm not sure about tests in which the ghoul doesn't have Night of the Dead, so many bosses have aoe abilities, cleaves, random damage, and with the change to how the cooldown works (only starts after it dies)... I don't think it would be that great.

I've always hated unholy and don't want to play it, and I am dissapointed with the changes they made to frost (my old spec) so I think I'll go blood, just trying to suss out glyphs, exact spec, and rotations before live.

I'm not sure if this qualifies as confirmation, but I did make a post regarding the Ebon Plague bug in THIS POST, and GC responded with: Woot.

Not only that, but they pretty clearly weren't happy with DK tanks being able to trivialise the Sarth3D encounter. I have no idea why you would think they haven't thought through the consequences; preventing us from being able to solo tank things like S3D is the entire point.