Even when Frost's damage is on par, it's utility is still worse. Unholy has speed and and debuff, Blood has survivability.
Here are some DPS numbers for example (I usually speak in percentages but here are some realistic high end numbers):
Lets say none of the specs can have the ghoul survive in any given fight (3 minute averages):
-Unholy DPS would be sitting around ~5.8-5.9k dps (with gargoyle but not ghoul) for 12/0/59 and similar with 0/10/61
-Blood would be at ~6.1 DPS (with DRW obviously) as 51/2/18 and similar with 51/0/20
-Frost DPS would ALSO be around ~5.8-5.9k as 17/51/3 (which means practically 0 dps with the ghoul anyway)
-Frost DPS for 0/51/20 would be ~5.5-5.6k (so maybe 30-55% of a ghoul on top?)
This seems odd to me. Add on the massive dps of the ghoul for Unholy and the partial Ghoul for Blood and you start to see Frost get swallowed. It would make more sense to see Frost dps on par with Blood sans Ghoul (at least for 17/51/3). If you then add on the extra Utility/Survivability you can't help but feel sorry for frost. Big numbers are fun right?
May I just say that I'm fully with Darkside (and many others) on the relative value of Sims/spreadsheets when it comes to small gaps between tests. Real fights mean more no matter what. Larger gaps are another story. Yes Sims/spreadsheets assume a lot. Averages only really make sense over long periods of time.
However, we predicted Frost's lag behind (fairly accurately might I add) before the proper gear was even available. I really don't see what Blizzard is seeing. Frost has always been behind.
-Maybe it's the 'goodwill' of Killing Machine ambiguity that has partially distorted figures (I think we've got a much better grasp on it now however).
-Maybe it's something as simple as the Razorice KM proc glitch. If I punch in double the KM procs Frost dps jumps to nearly equal blood (give or take 1%).
-Perhaps because of DW's taint? Now, DW is nearly dead/preference based and Frost 2H is better than before but not by enough IMO.
-Maybe they are compensating for the possible AOE burst available to frost through Rime.
The problem comes in when extensive error checking cannot reveal why a seemingly good spec would lag behind so much (4-5% is huge in e-peen world). Yes, Frost talents and skills are solid. Blood and Unholy just have more throughput. One major problem is Frost doesn't have a Gargoyle/DRW equivalent. Rime procs are now working in the right direction for 2H but it's still no DRW/Garg.
What could be done?:
-Increase high end talents so that frost has a top heavy spread like Unholy.
-Increase the haste given (DK only) on Imp Icy Talons
-Give more punch to Annihilation (and maybe give blood a reason to do 51/20/0 type builds)
-Create a frost damage proc similar to shaman frostbrand (or a frost Necrosis) to increase the value of Haste for frost.
-Talented skills like FS are already bursting for more than enough but Maybe shift some more damage into Blood of the north.
-Make merciless combat ~20% instead of 12%?
-Increase the PPM of Killing Machine?
Any combination of the above or better ideas would easily make up for the 5% missing. Most of the above changes would not be possible for 3.1 besides percentage tweaks.
I want to see what Blizzard is seeing. I wish I could see their models. They will never share it though. This is all we have and that is how they (GC at least) like it and honestly I can understand.
Frost is the last one left. Everything else has been done to near perfection. I'm very happy with what blizzard has done with all three of our specs. I just hope that Blizzard is taking a really good look at how the next week goes with frost specifically.
PS: I would have posted this on the suggestion forms but I haven't been able to post on Blizzard forms since before BC. Too bad for me/them but I guess there are plenty of others out there with the same or better ideas.
I perfectly agree, on all points.
Frost is my specc of choice, but it's a pain to see that Blizzard still didn't figure out what they want to do with it.
The core problem, as you outline, is that while frost has a very solid core system, it lacks controllable, cooldown based buffs that can be utilized in the same way Garg and DRW can.
The new UA was close to be that - on a 1 min cooldown, it would have provided a smaller dps increase over longer periods of time. On a 2 min cd, it's so minor compared to the other 2 cooldowns that's pointless to even compare them.
I don't have time to post my proposed solutions, but it's an interesting topic nonetheless.
-Maybe it's something as simple as the Razorice KM proc glitch. If I punch in double the KM procs Frost dps jumps to nearly equal blood (give or take 1%).
What could be done?:
-Increase high end talents so that frost has a top heavy spread like Unholy.
-Increase the haste given (DK only) on Imp Icy Talons
-Give more punch to Annihilation (and maybe give blood a reason to do 51/20/0 type builds)
-Create a frost damage proc similar to shaman frostbrand (or a frost Necrosis) to increase the value of Haste for frost.
-Talented skills like FS are already bursting for more than enough but Maybe shift some more damage into Blood of the north.
-Make merciless combat ~20% instead of 12%?
-Increase the PPM of Killing Machine?
Blizzard devs admitted that they messed up with Rogue balancing a few months ago due to a crit bug, so if they always tested Frost with bugged RI enchant procing KM that may have messed up their balancing (it was fixed on live a few days ago, no idea if the PTR got the fix as well).
I like your possible ideas to buff Frost up that last 4% or so. It sounds worthwhile to repost those in the PTR forum as a bug.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Frost 0/45/26 is on par with 0/10/61 and actually surpasses any other spec once the new sigil is equiped.
This is only true for single targets however.
You going by theory or tests? 0/10/61 is much more dps from my and Kahorie's sims but I guess we could both be wrong. If you are running a Sim make sure you have all the talents in properly. Kahorie's 0/10/61 didn't have talents spent in desecration last I checked so if you are using that template that could be the issue.
If you are speaking of test data PLEASE provide it. I'm hungry for some real raid parses. Even recount would be good.
Ran all spec's with 4000ap/25crit/hitcap/expcap/220dps wep + raid buffs +1000ap,lotp/scorch,misery,coe,kings etc
These numbers only account for single target dps, so due to aoe in the fights there would be some variaton.
0/45/26 G=OB/FS/Ghoul
IT-PS-OB-BS-BS-FS-FS-FS (85rp cycle)
OB-OB-OB-FS-FS-FS (105 rp cycle)
White = 700 dps
6 FS ~7k in 21 seconds =2kdps
4 OB ~6k in 21 seconds =1.15kdps
2 BS ~2.5 in 21 seconds = 240 dps
IT ~2.2k in 21 seconds = 110 dps
PS ~2.5k in 21 seconds = 120dps
FF ~ 3k in 21 seconds = 150 dps
BP ~ 3k in 21 seconds =150 dps
Necrosis = 200 dps
BCB 2k in 21 seconds = 95 dps
Ghoul avg = 500 dps
-10% movement
total 4900 dps
Thing about this spec is that its short 2 rp every 21 seconds to keep that 3rd FS going. So basically its req to cast HOW every 105 seconds and also this cycles first rotation should look like HoW-IT-PS-OB-BS-BS-BT/UA-FS-FS-FS.
0/10/61 G=ghoul,DD,IT
IT-PS-BS-BS-SS-UB-DC
SS-SS-SS-DC-DC and 1/2 DC
white 700
4 SS ~5335 =1067dps
3.5 DC ~4000 = 700
2 BS ~2800 = 280
IT ~2150 = 108
PS ~3150 =158
UB ~276dps
FF ~215dps
BP ~215dps
WP~150dps
Ghoul ~500dps
Garg ~750dps
Necrosis ~200 dps
BcB ~125 dps
-8.5% movement (unholy aura)
total 4981
I skipped glyph of SS for this build as it just doesn't seem very good IT+PS =5300dmg where as SS =5335, i prefer having a tighter rotation +5rp per cycle over +35 dmg per cycle.
Now i did these numbers with out any sigils so lets run dps w/ awareness and with vengeful.
So adding these into the dps numbers above 0/45/26 will come out just slightly ahead.
As always open to debate.
Might want to double check your multipliers since you forgot at least Outbreak. The deathcoil sigil definitely does not add up to near as much dps as Awareness in any of my math (though it's possible I am in error). Also, I don't see armor factored in on the OB numbers.
Kinda wondering where those ability numbers came from as well. I realize I don't really lay it all out either but I'm seeing some odd numbers (7k frost strikes without Tundra stalker for instance)
Will Unholy and Frost even bother with T8? I switched my T7.5 for T8.5 in simulator - without headpiece as it is badly itemized for Unholy and Frost - and I saw sidegrade and slight dps loss from that move.
Actually dropping T7 bonuses cost 200 dps for Unholy (150 for x4 and 50 for x2) and probably similar loss occurs for Frost. To cover that loss you need, for example, 150 STR - and that got you just in the same point. So overall random hard mode epics would need to provide at least 200 STR (or other stats with that value) to be even worth wearing.
We can assume those items are ilvl239, we know two like that: Plated Leggings of Ruination and Warhelm of the Champion. Now I put those in place of T7.5 meaning drop of 4xT7 bonus and dps stayed pretty much the same so x2 ilvl239 is sidegrade.
TLDR: As Unholy (and Frost most likely too) you need at least 2x ilvl239 epics to break 4xT7 and 4x ilvl239 epics to even get an upgrade from T7.5.
So are Unholy and Frost will be stuck in T7.5 until 3.2/late 3.1 or will those bonuses get nerfed hard?
Well I fucked up with Blood DPS numbers. The DPS put out by my simulator's were inflated by accounting for an extra HS or two here and there that weren't cast within diseases or penalized for such. This means that Blood is actually a strong bit lower than Unholy but still above Frost overall in a raid situation. Whatever the case, the numbers being generated look a lot more realistic given the PTR data available.
Kahorie's sim and my numbers are starting to be very close so I assume we are both on the right track or both making the same mistakes.
This is what I have so far:
Gear used is as follows...
Valorous' Scourgeborne Shoulderplates
Plated Leggings of Ruination
Valorous' Scourgeborne Battleplate
Valorous' Scourgeborne Helmet
Valorous' Scourgeborne Gauntlets
Belt of the Singing Blade
Desemator's Armguards
Battle Lord's Plate Boots
Wrathstone
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Sif's Promise
Ruthlessness
Figid Strength of Hodir
Stylish Power Cape
Voldrethar, Darkblade of Oblivion
Sigil of Awareness OR Sigil of DC/FS for blood and frost
BS Sockets = STR Gems
Sockets = STR gems + Bold Dragon's Eyes where socket bonuses are STR
Standard Enchants
All raid Buffs. Str food and Elixir.
DPS
12/0/59 Unholy = 6471 DPS with Fallen Crusader and 100% Ghoul
Glyphs: SS, Ghoul, Dark Death
51/2/18 Blood = 6226 DPS with Fallen Crusader and 50% Ghoul
Glyphs: DRW, Dark Death, Ghoul
17/51/3 Frost = 5969 DPS with Razorice and 25% Ghoul
Glyphs: FS, OB, IT
These numbers don't include waiting on procs for DRW/Garg (averaged instead) and if it did it would give Unholy even more of a lead.
Question: does the above-listed gear mean you used T7 for all three specs? T8 is definitely an upgrade for Blood spec, given the known gear available. Unless I'm way off, the T7 4-pc isn't nearly as valuable (and worth keeping) for a Blood spec in 3.1 as it is for the other two. I think there are also better possible combinations of gear for the various specs that would even that out a bit, particularly when the difference is 200 dps.
Question: does the above-listed gear mean you used T7 for all three specs? T8 is definitely an upgrade for Blood spec, given the known gear available. Unless I'm way off, the T7 4-pc isn't nearly as valuable (and worth keeping) for a Blood spec in 3.1 as it is for the other two. I think there are also better possible combinations of gear for the various specs that would even that out a bit, particularly when the difference is 200 dps.
I was tring to keep the Data simple but here is the DPS for Blood with T8 instead of T7 and an attempt at BiS:
Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates
Plated Leggings of Ruination
Conqueror's Darkruned Breastplate
Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet
Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets
Belt of Collosal Rage
Desemator's Armguards
Melancholy Sabatons
Wrathstone
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Sif's Promise Edit: Strength of the Automaton
Figid Strength of Hodir
Stylish Power Cape
Voldrethar, Darkblade of Oblivion
51/2/18 Blood = 6285 DPS
EDIT:
51/2/18 Blood with Deathstrike Glyph instead of Ghoul = 6359 DPS
Originally Posted by Bloodscape
Hey methods mind running the 0/45/26 rotation?
I'm in the process of redoing my spreadsheet atm.
Also methods how long was your test parse?
They were 30 minute Sims averaged over multiple samples to eliminate the most error possible (meaning approx. 24 Hours)
I was tring to keep the Data simple but here is the DPS for Blood with T8 instead of T7 and an attempt at BiS:
Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates
Plated Leggings of Ruination
Conqueror's Darkruned Breastplate
Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet
Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets
Belt of Collosal Rage
Desemator's Armguards
Melancholy Sabatons
Wrathstone
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Sif's Promise Edit: Strength of the Automaton
Figid Strength of Hodir
Stylish Power Cape
Voldrethar, Darkblade of Oblivion
51/2/18 Blood = 6285 DPS
EDIT:
51/2/18 Blood with Deathstrike Glyph instead of Ghoul = 6359 DPS
Try a 51/2/18 sim with these items instead.
Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates Clockwork Legplates (the sockets on Ruination legs are nice, but the ArP on Clockwork far exceeds the haste imo)*
Conqueror's Darkruned Breastplate
Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet
Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets Girdle of Embers Bitter Cold Armguards
Melancholy Sabatons Bladebearer's Signet
Sif's Promise
Figid Strength of Hodir* Drape of the Darkrider (its highly doubtful that the Stylish Power Cape will go into 3.1 with 60+ ArP. I believe the stats were already changed.) Bandit's Insignia
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Voldrethar, Darkblade of Oblivion*
Edit: * = 27 str JC only gem, if your sim includes those gems.
How do the new blacksmithing items stack up against some of the uludar loot, I haven't checked this topic in a while and was wondering if anyone had factored those in while doing gear comparisons.
Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates Clockwork Legplates (the sockets on Ruination legs are nice, but the ArP on Clockwork far exceeds the haste imo)*
Conqueror's Darkruned Breastplate
Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet
Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets Girdle of Embers Bitter Cold Armguards
Melancholy Sabatons Bladebearer's Signet
Sif's Promise
Figid Strength of Hodir* Drape of the Darkrider (its highly doubtful that the Stylish Power Cape will go into 3.1 with 60+ ArP. I believe the stats were already changed.) Bandit's Insignia
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Voldrethar, Darkblade of Oblivion*
Edit: * = 27 str JC only gem, if your sim includes those gems.
Using everything above besides the Bandit's Insignia (what were you thinking!? ):
Blood 51/2/18 = 6323
At first it looked like it was going to be a larger loss than it 'is'.
It's a good list of alternatives though! Some of those 239 ILevel items wont be seen by most.
Methods, could you please run your sim with 0/10/61 using your proposed BiS gear? Thank you.
I'm at risk of becoming a 'Theroycraft ATM'...
This will be my last 'request' reply unless I am specifically compelled otherwise.
0/45/26 Frost with Ghoul, FS, and OB = 6037 DPS
T7 BiS Listed before
This is lower than Blood and Unholy obviously but it is on par with 17+/51+/2+ (a lot higher than I expected but 100% ghoul helps a lot as well as the extra 5 RP from dirge)
0/10/61 Unholy with Ghoul, SS, Dark Death = 6510 DPS
T7 BiS Listed before
I wouldn't jump the gun and say 0/10/61 is better than 12/0/59 considering my previous test insisted on 2 morbidity out of my own personal preference. That means that if you don't particularly care for Morbidity you could get more dps out of 12/0/59 by maxing out BCB. It's too close to care IMO.
I wouldn't jump the gun and say 0/10/61 is better than 12/0/59 considering my previous test insisted on 2 morbidity out of my own personal preference. That means that if you don't particularly care for Morbidity you could get more dps out of 12/0/59 by maxing out BCB. It's too close to care IMO.
If they are more or less equal, then the one with Blood subspec is better. You get a threat reduce and bonus rp when killing adds.
This will be my last 'request' reply unless I am specifically compelled otherwise.
Your work is appreciated.
The point I was raising was simply that, if we're comparing/ranking specs, it makes sense to use gear appropriate to that particular spec. The items you simmed with for Blood match what I've found to be probably BiS so far. I agree that Blood and Unholy are turning out to be surprisingly close in 3.1, which is nice to see.
@Lushen: The reason for Plated Leggings of Ruination > Clockwork Legplates is the sockets, though, and doubly so if you're a JC. Armor Pen > Haste, but it's the sum of stats on the item that make the difference. PLoR have 16 more strength, plus 3 sockets for 48 bonus str (32 more than Clockwork). If you're a JC, you can use 2 Dragon's Eyes for PLoR's 8 str socket bonus, which is generally superior to most available socket bonuses. It would also give the legs alone a total of 200 (!!) Str.
04/03/09, 3:00 PM
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