Feorthas

Welcome to the new and improved--I hope--Frost DPS Thread. Until I have time to type out a more detailed index or introduction, the Live stuff will be in the first post and the upcoming changes (3.1 as of this post) will be in post #2, whenever I have time to get to that.

3.0.9

Viable specs:
-21/50/0 (personal preference; DRM is needed for the 3IT (*2) rotation)
-17/54/0
-0/44/26 +1

Preferred Glyphs:
-Icy Touch
-Obliterate
-Frost Strike
-Blood Tap
--Ghoul (Option for 0/44/26+1)

Viable Rotations:
-IT BS FS OB FS OB FS (Blood Pres)
-IT BS FS OB FS IT IT FS (UH Pres, requires 21/50 and 3/3 DRM)

Rough Stat Weights:
-todo

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Feorthas

This post is based on an older version of the current patch and is no longer entirely accurate, follow the information inside at your own risk.

3.1 Changes

With 3.1 comes vastly improved disease scaling, among other toys and a continuing reshuffle of the Frost Tree. As a result, Frost Deathknights will likely see an increase in overall damage output in the ballpark of 10% from 3.0.9 if using one of the following new builds and rotation:

Builds:
-20/51/0 :: Howling Blast with 3/3 DRM
-13/51/7 :: Howling Blast with 3/5 Bladed Armor, 3/5 %Crit, 2/2 Epidemic.
-4/51/16 :: Howling Blast with 2-3 Subversion, 1-2 Butchery, 3/3 Ravinous Dead, Ghoul Pet.
-1/51/19 :: Howling Blast with 1/3 Subversion OR Butchery, 3/3 Ravinous Dead, Ghoul Pet, 3/3 Blood Caked Blade.
-0/50/21 :: 5/5 Tundra Stalker, Same as above in UH + 1/3 Outbreak, 1/2 Dirge.

Glyphs:
-Obliterate
-Icy Touch
-Frost Strike
-Pestilence
-Blood Tap
--Ghoul is inferior to the three major glyphs listed above, even for builds using a ghoul pet.

Rune:
-Razorice
--Todo: Get Cinderglacier working!
--Latest PTR nerfed Fallen Crusader through the floor; it is no longer worth taking for Frost.

Cycles:

Generic: IT BS FS OB OB FS | PS BS FS OB OB FS

Dump slots are available after either half, although it would technically be better to dump extra RP/Rime Procs before the second OB in each half, and both builds are capable of doing solid damage using this rotation, which itself is an improvement on no-PS in 20/51.

3IT (UH Pres): IT BS FS IT OB FS IT FS DMP

Simply rinse and repeat untill boss is dead.

Notes/comments:

So, where do we stand post-nerf? Well, we're still at 4.5-4.9k Raidbuffed Spreadsheet DPS when wearing the usual 7-7.5 gear mix with OB sigil, Death's Bite and Razorice rune so it's not all that bad when you factor in the haste and ArPen buffs (right now I'm only buffing haste from gear so we could get another few 100 dps if the buff hits the IIT line, which I hope it does).

Some notable comments about the specs that I have listed above, and their rotations, are as follows:
-20/51 starts out as the clear leader on a dummy, ghoul or not, but gets clobbered when raid buffs come in, scaling at a rate 5% slower (35.9% vs 40-41%) than the rest.
-13/51/7 is the worst off in the end. Sure, it starts out OK but it just doesn't have a ghoul pet to lean on and doesn't start out with a solid enough lead to matter.
-4/51/16 isn't too bad and is neck and neck with 1/51/19. Since you have real amounts of threat reduction with 4 in blood, I'd favor 4 there over 1. Only detail here is that 1/51/19 scales slightly better; 40.7 vs 41.2%--about 50 dps raidbuffed.
-0/50/21 is a whole new can of worms. Bad AoE--and I'm talking 30s DnD with only BB to back it up bad--but it easily takes the single target crown, doing better than 95 dps higher than 1/51/19 and scaling just as well.

-I only checked scaling thoroughly with ghouls for Self -> Raid but did nonghoul spot checks and they were extremely close (<0.5% scaling difference) so the nonghoul scaling will be similar at the very least.

-Weapon Scaling was surprisingly uniform with 10 DPS yielding 1.2 to 1.3% improvements across the board.

Takeaways:
-Fallen Crusader is dead--Long Live Razorice!
--The uptime was already solid at 1ppm, 2ppm isn't enough to compensate for the 50% nerf.
-Double Disease, Strike Spamming rotations are still king.
-Goodbye Blood subspec; it was nice while it lasted :-/.
-Hello Ghoul Pet!... Now we just have to figure out how to use you. :-/
-Howling Blast is a big, big question mark but you don't have to ditch it quite yet. If there's any AoE situations in Ulduar, it MIGHT prove valuable... But that's a big if.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Feorthas

Reserved.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Lujaar

0/44/27 runs a different rotation than other frost specs. The best I've been able to figure out is

IT-PS-BS-BS-HB-(FS dump)-HB-IT-IT-FS-HB-(FS dump).


There's no consensus on what exactly this rotation should be but my point is it's different.


After 3.1, 0/44/27 probably turns into an IT+PS spammer. The above cycle, or a variant using Obliterate, is only slightly better than going into UP and spamming IT+PS now. After plague strike and froststrike get buffed, IT+PS in UP will likely pull ahead.

 

Travaggie

Currently the best rotation for 44/27 (I actually use 45/26) is a priority rotation and PS is not a part of it. Start with IT, then prioritize HB>FS>IT and blood strike when needed. You'll be pumping out HB every 5 seconds and FS every time it's up so RPM is not needed.

From my experience, and I've yet to not get hatefulled or lag out on Patchwerk to show parses but hope to do so this week, it is a far more well rounded and fun to play spec than 50/21 and has put out marginally better numbers for me even with 4pcT7 and sigil of awareness.

 

Holeyfield

My first impressions here are that going by the PTR I expect x/5x/x to be the way we'll want to go, obviosly... However, what I'd like to know is since we will be able to get a Ghoul with 16 points into Unholy and still max Frost, what does more DPS then? A Ghoul or 5% crit w/ Bladed Armor?

 

Travaggie

Currently, the answer to this question would be a ghoul. But the unanswered question is how much aoe damage is going to be sustained in Ulduar compared to now and will our ghoul even live long enough or through most fights.

The other deciding factor in my opinion will be glyph selection. Right now, we have options for picking up the OB, FS, IT, HB, Pest, Ghoul and possibly PS glyph depending on where the math trail ends. So should you decide to spec into permaghoul, you most certainly would pick up the Ghoul Glyph, which basically gives you one less glyph choice than speccing into blood would allow you. So assuming the HB and Pestilence glyph stays the same, there are really a ton of options on which to use with which rotation and it will play a big role in what spec you take as well.

 

Deimoz

-21/50/0 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9614
-Blood Pres
-Glyph of Obliterate, IT, FS
-Rotation: IT>BS>FS>OB>OB>FS (On PTR T7 and Frost talent not giving me the extra RP for another FS)
I would be doing IT>BS>FS>OB>FS>OB>FS



Points i would like to bring up:

1) I found that i could not do as much DPS with the PS>IT>BS>FS>BS>OB>FS rotation on PTR, it also felt a bit clunky... PS just might not be worth using unless you glyph AND spec deep into Unholy for it (though i did 200 DPS less on the dummy when i was using the PS rotation)

2) Is there a reason to grab HB anymore? I have tried alot of specs, around 1k in respecs so far... HB is doing just fine damage but my biggest issue is that unless you care about trash dps then HB just isnt worth it... FS hits so hard, leaving our KM procs for it are just smarter imho.

Hope this bring up some interesting discussion.

 

Odii

You cant really test Frost dps on PTR because of BotN not converting blood to death runes and OB not generating RP.

 

Deimoz

I had no problem making the death runes.

I already mention that i was doing 1 less FS per rotation.

I want people to think about whether or not PS and HB are needed.

 

Searix

After doing a lot of Hodir last night, few notes considering frost specs:

1) Ghoul has to be micro-managed to avoid insta-gib on Hodir (if it gets hit by it its pretty much dead even with NotD)
2) Hodir is mostly immune to frost

 

Holeyfield

I had to quote it because I'd like to know how you know PS isn't worth it if you're trying to use the same old tired rotation in the screen shot of testing you posted?

Keep the same build and everything, and show me a rotation using...

IT, PS, OB, BS, BS, OB, OB, OB

Or even...

IT, PS, OB, BS, BS, IT, PS, OB, OB

Inserting FS for Runic dumps as needed. I know what you're saying, but all your showing is the same ole stuff. I cannot fathom how dropping PS and the associated DoT, even after the buffing of PS, is somehow still a damage increase, even without the Glyphs or even talents for that matter, not to mention spending 3/3 in Outbreak alone buffing it quite a bit.

 

Leaflock

#2 is definitely not true. I have WWS, but EJ has this rule about not discussing new bosses yet.

 

Deimoz

Well see thats the thing, so far, i have not been able to get close to the same DPS using PS, now dont get me wrong i know that its been buffed. It was kinda my point in the first place... i did not stating PS is bad, i was asking if someone else had goten different results, (Which means you jumped on PTR and saw an increase using PS in your rotations) lol not trying to make any conclusions yet, just trying to bring to everyone's attention that maybe, if it aint broke dont fix it?

Just to clarify, when i tested the PS rotation i was not the same old spec same old rotation, i respeced and went into unholy to get the stronger PS and also changed the rotation to fit that in more offen. I was just stating that PS rotation dropped my DPS and that the screenshot was to show what it looked like on the PTR when using the old rotation EVEN THOUGH there is a bug where i get 15 less RP per Obliterate still outshined the PS rotatiions. Again, if you have gotten different results let me know, i would love to retest and see if there is simething i missed, but as it stands i cant get the same DPS when using PS rotations.

 

Holeyfield

Well, hasn't all the DPS been nerfed? What are you compairing it to is what I'm asking. How much of a DPS loss was it using everything exactly the same as in your test above, but adding PS to the mix.

Exactly how much DPS was lost using PS?

 

Deimoz

Read my above posts....

PS rotations dropped my dps by about 200.

PS: On live im doing less DPS on the dummy. So i would say that 2h got a buff not a nurf.

 

Oniseidou

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...5&version=9626

How about that build? Just tried it out on PTR. Pulled 2400 unbuffed with Cinderglacier. Also I didn't have any glyphs yet (except PvP ones)

Rotation: Ob - Ob - BS - BS - ITx6 - RP dump, Repeat. Pop UA during one of the IT spam sessions.

 

crunchyblack

Quoted from the OP.

 

Nexbellator

I have been reading these DK threads for a while now and picked up a few tips, so I thought I'd lend some help with 3.1 Frost DPS. For the past few days I've been testing several dps specs in EACH of the three trees and have found Deep frost to be overwhelmingly better than both Unholy and Blood... by a margin of nearly 600 dps. Partially because I have been raiding 21/50/0 for ages.

Rotation: IT, OB, BS, BS, Blood Tap + OB
FSx4, BS
ITx4, FSx2, ITx2, FSx2
After that it's Priority to keep Death Runes up.

I used this same rotation for ALL of the following tests, Minus a FS here and there from Buggy RP.

Here is a Screenie of the normal Frost (Now 20 / 51 with moved HB) build I use to raid. Glyphs are Frost Strike, Icy Touch and Obliterate.




Rotation: IT, OB, BS, BS, Blood Tap + OB
FSx4, BS
ITx4, FSx2, ITx2, FSx2
After that it's Priority to keep Death Runes up.

** Note that BotN seemed a bit buggy and didn't always give me a Death rune. In addition, Glyph of Icy Touch and the 4 piece set bonus for Obliterate were not awarding the proper RP so I was getting one, sometimes two less FS per rotation. **


I also tested a Frost / Unholy spec to include Necrosis, Ghoul and Blood-Caked weapons. Glyphs were Obliterate, Frost Strike and Ghoul.



I had recount show pet also, separated from my own dps. Add the two for total. Without DRM from blood I found I was waiting too much on rune cooldowns in Unholy Presence. Here is the same spec (with pet) in Blood Presence:



Combined DPS is much better in Blood and the Runes seems to be available when needed much better.

Overall, Frost still seems pretty powerful to me and I will continue raiding this spec when 3.1 is live. As for Pet / No Pet, that comes down to how fast will that sucker die without NotD. Also, with RP bug from 4 piece Set bonus, IT glyph and BotN not working 100%, I think the actual dps will be HIGHER than what I tested since there will be less downtime and more specials being spammed! Hope this info helps some of you in testing more Frosties.

 

stormcraft

Why do you use IT so often in your rotations, arent they eating your KM procs away?
Wouldnt it be smarter to use Obliberate more to spare the KM procs for FS?

 

cruisi

2h Frost 3/51/17

it-ps-ob-bs-bs / fs-ob-fs-ob-ob-fs

Everytime KM procc is up try to use FS, good proccrate.

Obliberate still buggy. Only generates 5 RP, so I have to wear 4 t7.5 for extra RP.

 

Athyr

I think he is on to something with that rotation. IT hits so hard for one rune, it seems worth the KM. In a way, it's our HS. The only problem is I can't seem to maintain a consistent DPS range trying to keep it up as he has written. Can you clarify your priority system? I've had dummy DPS range from 2200 to 3300 on 6 min tests and I'm still trying to tease out what leads to the higher range.

 

Ghaash

I hope all tests have been conducted under the same conditions. You can't test spec vs spec with things like Icy Talons (hastebuff) that would be available to all specs in a raid setting. Also Merciless Combat on lowhp dummies messes up all tests. Furthermore, spell-heavy rotations/specs are not penalized by bossdummy-parry as much as strike-heavy rotations. A problem that wouldn't occur on real bosses when striking from behind. Since you said you raided as frost for ages, your gear is probably optimized for that spec too.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

Very few people posting frost dummy numbers are clarifying: (1) merciless combat (2) other debuffs on the dummy. These are not irrelevant factors -- they can easily neutralize 700 dps. Numbers provided without them mean we have to speculate about their validity before we can even begin speculating about what they mean.

 

Nexbellator

I forgot to mention I use the Razorice Rune, which now adds 10% frost damage, and with the change to Glacier rot Frost damage is pretty nice overall, and as mentioned I don't have to worry about dodge and parry with non strike attacks. IT crits for 5k as is, FS about 7.8k, so yes I lose some damage by not saving for FS... but I can chew through Death runes so quick it makes up for using KM on a lower damage attack.

The priority I use focuses around using as much frost damage as possible, so I want death runes to spam IT. The initial rotation of IT, OB, BS, BS, Blood Tap + OB gives me 6 death runes on next cycle. Then spamming FS burns through about 128 RP or so with the Glyph, which I have from 4 Piece t7 + IT glyph, giving me 4 strikes. By the time those 4 strikes are done I hit HB (if freezing Fog is up) and start the Mad IT spam. After 5 of them (125 RP) I hit blood strike to refresh that death rune then spam 4 FS again.

Next cycle will begin Unholy and Blood cooldowns, so I hit Bloodstrike on Bloodrune and Obliterate on Unholy (Also need death or frost rune) purely to refresh all 6 death runes. Any time I have 100+ RP I spam FS and keep all 6 death runes moving.