I would like to point out that 4% isn't a straight 4% more chance to crit as you would normally think.
When I was comparing specs, my frost strikes were critting 57% of the time with 5/5 dark conviction. With 1/5 dark conviction, my FS crits were 55% over 10 minutes.
Now get this, my oblit crits were 54% with 5/5 dark conviction and 56% with only 1/5. I checked it twice.
About the "rp dump", that is a very inefficiant way to spend RP, the best method is to weave frost strikes in to the rotation so that you can hope to maximise killing machine procs, that also means that I do not wait for a killing machine proc before I use frost strike. FS can still crit even with out killing machine up and interrupting your rune rotation can make you lose as much dps as FS spamming at the end of your rotation.
Test out this spec 13/51/7 in blood presence and fallen crusader using this rotation:
PS-IT-FS-OB-FS-BS-BS-FS
OB-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS
If you want to, take the points out of meciless combat and place them in runic power mastery for test purposes so you don't get inflated numbers.
That rotation does more weapon damage per 2 rotations that PS-less rotation and makes the best use of frost strike.
I would like to point out that 4% isn't a straight 4% more chance to crit as you would normally think.
When I was comparing specs, my frost strikes were critting 57% of the time with 5/5 dark conviction. With 1/5 dark conviction, my FS crits were 55% over 10 minutes.
Now get this, my oblit crits were 54% with 5/5 dark conviction and 56% with only 1/5. I checked it twice.
How were you testing the crit rates of Obliterate and Frost Strike? Dummies, raids...? How long were the tests? The obliterate crit rate changes vastly due to RNG and overall more points in Dark Conviction should lead to more obliterate crits, so I'm a little bit suspicious of your testing that says you got more crits with less crit%. Were there different buffs involved, HoW perhaps?
I would like to point out that 4% isn't a straight 4% more chance to crit as you would normally think.
When I was comparing specs, my frost strikes were critting 57% of the time with 5/5 dark conviction. With 1/5 dark conviction, my FS crits were 55% over 10 minutes.
Now get this, my oblit crits were 54% with 5/5 dark conviction and 56% with only 1/5. I checked it twice.
About the "rp dump", that is a very inefficiant way to spend RP, the best method is to weave frost strikes in to the rotation so that you can hope to maximise killing machine procs, that also means that I do not wait for a killing machine proc before I use frost strike. FS can still crit even with out killing machine up and interrupting your rune rotation can make you lose as much dps as FS spamming at the end of your rotation.
Test out this spec 13/51/7 in blood presence and fallen crusader using this rotation:
PS-IT-FS-OB-FS-BS-BS-FS
OB-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS
If you want to, take the points out of meciless combat and place them in runic power mastery for test purposes so you don't get inflated numbers.
That rotation does more weapon damage per 2 rotations that PS-less rotation and makes the best use of frost strike.
Also, toughness does scale with bladed armor.
The only thing that isn't "straight crit" is Frost Strike's crit rate due to Killing Machine decreasing the value of crit.
Your 'odd' crit numbers are just because of randomness and a small sample size.
I've had 5-minute boss parses with anywhere from 45% FS crit to 85% FS crit.
That's the point, I am going in favor of greater weapon damage over 4% crit.
What I don't understand is why you are assuming longer diseases give you more weapon damage. There's nothing in 13/51/7 that favours weapon damage as far as I can see.
Im currently running in Blood presence and having no problem with rotation doing 3200-3400 dps on boss dummies, First 2 bosses in Uludar arent a great test for dps thought so not had a real dps test yet. One thing i noticed thought Blood 50/21 seems to have overtaken frost for aoe damage, Unholy blight with new Hs (instant dc) changes.
However i noticed armor penetration being brought up here earlier, i used to run diseaseless blood and have about 15% armor penetration from gear. On my tests on Dummies 4pt tier 7.5 just created to much rp for me to burn in blood presence, i hate unholy presence so i took it off and swapped my gear lost haste + tier bonus for pretty much 15% armor penetration. I still see a lack of information of were Arp is for Frost, but has anyone else tested it?
No, I am assuming that blood plague gives more weapon damage. This is for people who want to keep PS-less rotations alive by the way.
In the old PS-less build, 2 rotations would be like this.
IT-BS-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS
IT-OB-FS-OB-FS-BS-FS
That's 2 IT, 2 BS, 4 OB, and 6 FS all in 14 GCD (21 seconds in a perfect world).
With a PS rotation, it will be like this.
PS-IT-FS-OB-FS-BS-BS-FS
OB-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS
That's 1 IT, 1 PS, 2 BS, 4 OB, and 6 FS all in 14 GCD (21 seconds in a perfect world).
So the difference is trading 1 icy touch for 1 plague strike, the amount of blood stikes, obliterates, and frost strikes are the same. That means in my rotation, my obliterates and blood strikes are hitting harder AND I have blood plague up for extra dot damage.
I personally have good latency, so I can start my rotation over before FF fades, so I am able to run 21 second diseases and use blood presence. I understand that not everyone will be able to do that, but the dps boost from blood presence is noticable
...snip...
Test out this spec 13/51/7 in blood presence and fallen crusader using this rotation:
...snip...
With respect to this build, would shifting that 1% from Dark Conviction to Ravenous Dead, strictly for the 1% str scaling, come out (slightly) ahead? I'm having a hard time finding current stat weights for frost builds, but my extremely rough estimate appears to make it a wash at around 1500 strength or so, and it would scale better in a raid environment.
It might be a really nit picky thing, but wanted put it out there for consideration.
With respect to this build, would shifting that 1% from Dark Conviction to Ravenous Dead, strictly for the 1% str scaling, come out (slightly) ahead? I'm having a hard time finding current stat weights for frost builds, but my extremely rough estimate appears to make it a wash at around 1500 strength or so, and it would scale better in a raid environment.
It might be a really nit picky thing, but wanted put it out there for consideration.
With respect to this build, would shifting that 1% from Dark Conviction to Ravenous Dead, strictly for the 1% str scaling, come out (slightly) ahead? I'm having a hard time finding current stat weights for frost builds, but my extremely rough estimate appears to make it a wash at around 1500 strength or so, and it would scale better in a raid environment.
Using direct comparisons, 1% crit = about 43 crit rating vs. 1% more strength + slightly better guardian pet.
Using item weights, at around 1250 strength the unholy talent wins.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
This has me thinking about the 10/51/10 builds some people mentioned earlier. But what would you take the 2 points from? Bladed armor or 2h weapon?
I currently have 15018 armor (with Horn) which = 417 ap with 5/5 BA.
Also with horn I have 1346 str. If I were to get 3% more, that would give me an extra 40 strength.
If I ran 3/5 BA, my ap bonus drops to 250 with my armor level, or I am losing 87 ap total self buffed. But raid buffs favor raw str over an armor bonus.
So, opinions. What would you think would scale better in a raid?
No, I am assuming that blood plague gives more weapon damage. This is for people who want to keep PS-less rotations alive by the way.
In the old PS-less build, 2 rotations would be like this.
IT-BS-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS
IT-OB-FS-OB-FS-BS-FS
That's 2 IT, 2 BS, 4 OB, and 6 FS all in 14 GCD (21 seconds in a perfect world).
With a PS rotation, it will be like this.
PS-IT-FS-OB-FS-BS-BS-FS
OB-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS
That's 1 IT, 1 PS, 2 BS, 4 OB, and 6 FS all in 14 GCD (21 seconds in a perfect world).
So the difference is trading 1 icy touch for 1 plague strike, the amount of blood stikes, obliterates, and frost strikes are the same. That means in my rotation, my obliterates and blood strikes are hitting harder AND I have blood plague up for extra dot damage.
I personally have good latency, so I can start my rotation over before FF fades, so I am able to run 21 second diseases and use blood presence. I understand that not everyone will be able to do that, but the dps boost from blood presence is noticable
No way are you getting 3 frost strikes in the first rotation with 85 RP. Where's the extra 11 rp coming from?
Something worth noting too is that vicious strikes boosts PS in this build too. I think 13/51/7 is sounding like the win spec.
No, I am assuming that blood plague gives more weapon damage. This is for people who want to keep PS-less rotations alive by the way.
In the old PS-less build, 2 rotations would be like this.
IT-BS-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS
IT-OB-FS-OB-FS-BS-FS
That's 2 IT, 2 BS, 4 OB, and 6 FS all in 14 GCD (21 seconds in a perfect world).
With a PS rotation, it will be like this.
PS-IT-FS-OB-FS-BS-BS-FS
OB-FS-OB-FS-OB-FS
That's 1 IT, 1 PS, 2 BS, 4 OB, and 6 FS all in 14 GCD (21 seconds in a perfect world).
So the difference is trading 1 icy touch for 1 plague strike, the amount of blood stikes, obliterates, and frost strikes are the same. That means in my rotation, my obliterates and blood strikes are hitting harder AND I have blood plague up for extra dot damage.
I personally have good latency, so I can start my rotation over before FF fades, so I am able to run 21 second diseases and use blood presence. I understand that not everyone will be able to do that, but the dps boost from blood presence is noticable
That's why the new PS-less will be done through glyphed howling blast.
Base rotation will be
HB OB BS BS FS dump
HB OB OB FS dump
That's probably going to last for like 3 times through because rime procs will set you off so you sort of have to improvise, but the real advantage is that you can easily use blood presence, though I'm not testing this with 4-piece 7.5.
so i have been reading a bit on this thread. I cant seem to see any actually raid results, only dummys and descusions. I myself has only been in ulduar once so my testing is limited. I used the 17/51/3 with a rotation that looked like this on boss
(BT)start, then IT-BS-OB-OB-FS dump repeat.
the result was very messy. i had all between 3200-4100. it was on the XT-002 boss.
i like my rotation cause its so simple and hit hard last patch. Does any of u use this rot anymore or is it dead now? and if anyone had a build that would favor my rotation instead of the others i would like to see it.
I actually only need a build that consentrates on boss dps, since my guild has plenty of aoe and i wanna shine through in boss encounters.
so i have been reading a bit on this thread. I cant seem to see any actually raid results, only dummys and descusions. I myself has only been in ulduar once so my testing is limited. I used the 17/51/3 with a rotation that looked like this on boss
(BT)start, then IT-BS-OB-OB-FS dump repeat.
the result was very messy. i had all between 3200-4100. it was on the XT-002 boss.
i like my rotation cause its so simple and hit hard last patch. Does any of u use this rot anymore or is it dead now? and if anyone had a build that would favor my rotation instead of the others i would like to see it.
I actually only need a build that consentrates on boss dps, since my guild has plenty of aoe and i wanna shine through in boss encounters.
Hope i made any sence to someone
Seems low dps for your gear...
But yes, so far I've still been using the old rotation, mostly because I'm just so used to it. I haven't been able to get my timing down with the others, but I'm not a great rotation comer-upper-wither. It doesn't seem like I've lost any dps compared to pre-3.1, but it's sounding like the other rotations may do more.
I'm going to test 13/51/7 the minute I get a chance and use the new rotation:
PS-IT-(FS)-OB-BS-BS-(FS)
(FS)-OB-(FS)-OB-(FS)-OB-(HB if Rime procced)
I'm not that impressed with 17/51/3 and PS-IT-(FS)-OB-BS-BS-(FS) | PS-IT-(FS)-OB-(FS)-OB-(FS). It doesn't seem to do any more dps than the old rotation. Not with my gear, at least. Maybe if I changed my spec to put 2/2 in vicious strikes and only 1/3 in Virulence but, I dunno.
That's why the new PS-less will be done through glyphed howling blast.
Base rotation will be
HB OB BS BS FS dump
HB OB OB FS dump
That's probably going to last for like 3 times through because rime procs will set you off so you sort of have to improvise, but the real advantage is that you can easily use blood presence, though I'm not testing this with 4-piece 7.5.
Any more word yet on what gear and spec set up this rotation is based around? And do we just wait around during the last 2 GCD's?
I'm assuming it's a 13/51/7 spec since one application of FF has to last through the whole rotation... but does that mean we have to waste 2 points in vicious strikes? Or are we really going to use HB twice in the main rotation and not worry about 7 points in Unholy? We also lose 1.5 frost strikes w/out 4pt7 and I doubt if t8 can make up for that, as many have already pointed out.
w/ 4pt7:
0.0 HB 15 RP
1.5 OB 45 RP
3.0 FS 13 RP
4.5 BS 23 RP
6.0 BS 33 RP
7.5 FS 1 RP
9.0
10 (add 4 RP for butchery)
10.0 OB 35 RP
11.5 FS 3 RP
13.0 OB 33 RP
14.5 FS 1 RP
16.0 OB 31 RP
(+2 butchery)
17.5 FS 1 RP
19.0
20.0 (hopefully HB on Rime for free HB and xtra OB on restart)
w/out 4pt7:
0.0 HB 20 RP
1.5 OB 40 RP
3.0 FS 8 RP
4.5 BS 18 RP
6.0 BS 28 RP
7.5
9.0
(+ 4 RP for butchery)
10.0 FS 0 RP
11.5 OB 20 RP
13.0 OB 40 RP
14.5 FS 8 RP
16.0 OB 28 RP
17.5
19.0
(+4 RP)
20.0 FS 0 RP
(hopefully HB on Rime for free HB and xtra OB on restart)
It's already been discussed but nobody seems to read the whole thread so... yea.
The Rotation can handle 1 additional gc with my latency inside the 21 second disease duration.
Opening the fight with Horn+Arcane Torrent nets me 25 rp lets me start the first rotation with 3 FS's. I prioritize HB procs at the beggining of the 2 sections of the rotation but i dont exceed the 13gc's.
About 75% of the full 2 part rotations end up being 13gc's through a 3rd FS on the first part of the rotation or a rime HB.
On 6 min parses on the combat dummy in EH at 100% health (no MC active) i maintained 3200 dps single target. I expect it could be a little higher b/c of a few prioritization errors but overall im pleased.
What i really like about the spec is the AE ability.
HB>DnD>BT/PS>Pest or
HB>BB>BB>
Are both very quick and simple AE rotations with a lot of damage capability.
I have been dummy testing these using 5 min samples on each, about 2-3 of these per rotation. The best dps I managed was 3300 for the second rotation, followed by 3200 for the first rotation, and a dismal 2800 for the third. I love the simplicity of the third rotation, but it simply doesn't have the RP generation of the first two, and in the end that costs it.
However, after more testing on the second rotation, and having swapped in the new HB glyph for the IT glyph, I found that I was able to get a consistent 3700 dps by using a priority based rotation, rather than a set one. I also found that when I got a Rime proc, I was able to save the proc till FF was about to drop off, then use it to put FF back up again, essentially saving me using IT in that rotation. This makes that part of the rotation look like;
This gives more damage for that rotation, and also by using three Obliterates instead of 2, increases the chance of Rime proccing.
Apart from that, I used a priority system, where it went FF first (using HB with Rime, otherwise IT), then Obliterate, then FS, then BS. If KM procced I would FS. If Rime procced, I would keep my rotation going until FF was about to drop, then HB to get FF back up. The most important thing I found was to not be slow on Obliterate, if those runes sit unused for more than a GCD it was a noticable dps loss, normally through RP starvation. This seems a fairly simple rotation to keep up once you get into the mindset.
I have only done Razorscale 25 and Maly 10 this week, neither are particularly good dps checks unfortunately. I did however get 5.1k on Maly, bearing in mind I was stopping to DG and kill sparks. My guild is doing XT and Ignis tonight, and XT should give a better single target result. I should have a WWS to post after that.
I know it's been said but I've tried using both FC and Razorice enchant and can't seem to decide which one is better. Currently using the Sigil of Awareness and both damage seems to be roughly the same. Would Razorice do more DPS in a raid environment as opposed to FC?
I have been dummy testing these using 5 min samples on each, about 2-3 of these per rotation. The best dps I managed was 3300 for the second rotation, followed by 3200 for the first rotation, and a dismal 2800 for the third. I love the simplicity of the third rotation, but it simply doesn't have the RP generation of the first two, and in the end that costs it.
However, after more testing on the second rotation, and having swapped in the new HB glyph for the IT glyph, I found that I was able to get a consistent 3700 dps by using a priority based rotation, rather than a set one. I also found that when I got a Rime proc, I was able to save the proc till FF was about to drop off, then use it to put FF back up again, essentially saving me using IT in that rotation. This makes that part of the rotation look like;
This gives more damage for that rotation, and also by using three Obliterates instead of 2, increases the chance of Rime proccing.
Apart from that, I used a priority system, where it went FF first (using HB with Rime, otherwise IT), then Obliterate, then FS, then BS. If KM procced I would FS. If Rime procced, I would keep my rotation going until FF was about to drop, then HB to get FF back up. The most important thing I found was to not be slow on Obliterate, if those runes sit unused for more than a GCD it was a noticable dps loss, normally through RP starvation. This seems a fairly simple rotation to keep up once you get into the mindset.
I have only done Razorscale 25 and Maly 10 this week, neither are particularly good dps checks unfortunately. I did however get 5.1k on Maly, bearing in mind I was stopping to DG and kill sparks. My guild is doing XT and Ignis tonight, and XT should give a better single target result. I should have a WWS to post after that.
yes!!
thats the kind of dps i want to have with my rotation exactly! but does it matter that i use BS before OB?
I have been dummy testing these using 5 min samples on each, about 2-3 of these per rotation. The best dps I managed was 3300 for the second rotation, followed by 3200 for the first rotation, and a dismal 2800 for the third. I love the simplicity of the third rotation, but it simply doesn't have the RP generation of the first two, and in the end that costs it.
However, after more testing on the second rotation, and having swapped in the new HB glyph for the IT glyph, I found that I was able to get a consistent 3700 dps by using a priority based rotation, rather than a set one. I also found that when I got a Rime proc, I was able to save the proc till FF was about to drop off, then use it to put FF back up again, essentially saving me using IT in that rotation. This makes that part of the rotation look like;
This gives more damage for that rotation, and also by using three Obliterates instead of 2, increases the chance of Rime proccing.
Apart from that, I used a priority system, where it went FF first (using HB with Rime, otherwise IT), then Obliterate, then FS, then BS. If KM procced I would FS. If Rime procced, I would keep my rotation going until FF was about to drop, then HB to get FF back up. The most important thing I found was to not be slow on Obliterate, if those runes sit unused for more than a GCD it was a noticable dps loss, normally through RP starvation. This seems a fairly simple rotation to keep up once you get into the mindset.
I have only done Razorscale 25 and Maly 10 this week, neither are particularly good dps checks unfortunately. I did however get 5.1k on Maly, bearing in mind I was stopping to DG and kill sparks. My guild is doing XT and Ignis tonight, and XT should give a better single target result. I should have a WWS to post after that.
You should consider trying 13/51/7 with your HB rotation (or 12/51/8). From my perspective the greatest strength of the HB rotation is it lets you use Rime to put up diseases (this is one of the things that has always made Unholy so wicked with its SS glyph). With 21 second diseases you get 4-5 opportunities to proc Rime per disease iteration, where as with 15 second diseases you get closer to 3-4, depending on when your last FF application was. I imagine it could vary widely, but a worst case scenario of 3 opportunities to proc Rime gives you a 61% chance to get no procs, the best case scenario of 5 gives you a 44% chance to get no procs (conveniently putting the odds in your favor =p). Whether it's worth giving up the 4% crit or not I'm not sure, but I think it's at least worth considering.
04/17/09, 1:04 PM
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