Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Testing the rotation listed in the 3.1 section, I always seem to have the initial F rune used for the first IT come up when it's time to PS. I read that I should use D for the IT/PS's but how can I use one on the opener? Am I supposed to open with OB's to use FFUU then start with the IT on my BT'd D rune? So it would look like this:

BT - BS - OB - OB
then go into IT - BS - OB - OB / PS - BS - OB - OB (with FS/HB woven in as appropriate, of course)

I know this is a basic concept, but I've tried paper & spreadsheet mock ups and dummy testing, and I just can't seem to wrap my head around it. Laracy = Epic Fail.

The easiest thing for me I've found is to just start out with this:

IT>OB>BT/UA Macro>BS>ERW>FS>FS>FS>FS

Then proceed to rotate between:

PS>OB>FS>OB>BS>FSx2
IT>OB>FS>OB>BS>FSx2

When UA becomes available again, use after a sequence of PS(or IT)>OB>FS>OB for a half rotation that looks like this:

PS>OB>FS>OB>BT/UA Macro>BS

It's pretty easy to continue this indefinitely without any hitches and if you have Epidimic (which you really have to in this rotation) both diseases should be up about 95% of the time as well depending on your latency.

I'm pulling anywhere from 3.5k - 4.2k on 5 minute tests depending on the luck of RNG and whether or not crypt fever is up on the dummy or not, with FS/IT/OB glyphs and without BoH or Fury/Bandit's Insignia trinkets.

Razorice Doubles your KM procs cause when it procs, it can proc off KM also. Its a bug.

Could you clarify what this bug is or does a bit more. I genuinely don't understand what it is you're saying is happening or what you're saying is causing it with that snippet.

Does anyone have any better data on 3.1 Cinderglacier? They changed it from a flat 5% proc rate to PPM. From my testing so far, it has 2-3 PPM. So the question is: Is it worth using over Rune of Fallen Crusader for 2H Frost?

While I can't actually confirm this, I will say that KM was proccing like crazy (I estimated 10/minute before reading the above post) and I did have Razorice.

Whenever you auto-attack, each swing have a chance to proc Killing machine which should amount to 5PPM. However, with Razorice enchant, whenever Razorice procs to applay a debuff on the target, it have a chance to proc Killing Machince also. Thus instead of only auto-attacks giving Killing Machine, Razorice procs also gives killing Machine. There are times where you could get 2 Killing Machine procs on 1 swing because of this bug.

I can confirm this with a mod that tracks proc rates. Killing Machine typically gives me 6-8 PPM cause of haste and RNG. But with Razorice, i'm getting 14-17 PPM.

When was UP ever standard for that rotation? The only rotation that used UP was ITx6. You should be in BP.

This has been discussed in a couple of posts now, and forgive me if I'm just overlooking something obvious, but I really can't understand how the IT PS BS BS etc rotation is wrong. In full, this rotation means:

IT PS BS BS OB | OB OB OB (with FS/rime dumps as appropriate)

while the rotation suggested in the OP is:

IT BS OB OB | PS BS OB OB (with FS/rime dumps as appropriate)

Now, comparing these two rotations we note that they

1) consist of exactly the same attacks in total (4xOB, 2xBS, IT, PS)
2) are of exactly the same length (20 secs due to both using all 6 runes twice)
3) generate exactly the same amount of RP
4) KM procs are used exactly the same way, since IT in both comes after an FS dump

To me, it looks like thee two rotations should do identical damage. The only difference between them, and the reason why I brought this up, is that the first rotation is easier to keep up once you factor in movement and other perturberations. The second rotation is a bit awkward to get into due the IT and PS not using the same rune, and one cannot always rely on Ds to be the only rune up in case of movement fights.

If there's something I've missed, and the second rotation does indeed do more, then please point out why that is.

The two rotations obviously use identical abilities. The difference is primarily in timing.

Using Death runes for IT+PS, you are essentially risking Death/Frost and Death/Unholy rune flips in case of rotation interruption (as you've pointed out) for slightly better KM spacing.

This is the "safe" version:

IT>PS>OB>fs>BS>BS>fs
OB>fs>OB>fs>OB[>UAmacro]>fs(>fs)

This is the "risky" version with better KM spacing:

OB>fs>OB>fs>IT[>UAmacro]>BS>fs
OB>fs>OB>fs>BS>PS(>fs)

- - -

While we are on the subject of high-risk rotations. It is possible to spec 17/51/3 without Epidemic and run a 12-GCD 5xOB rotation for tank-n'-spank with the new Glyph of Disease.

PS>IT>PS>IT>BS>fs (initialization sequence, execute once)
...
PE>OB>fs>OB>PE>fs
OB>fs>OB>fs>OB>fs

This rotation can absorb a lot more consistently high latency than "standard" 13-GCD/14-GCD rotations. However, it abuses rune cooldown mechanics about as much as is undeadly possible, and interruptions to the rotation beyond 1.5 sec will cause rune flips and force you to continue with a more traditional rotaion as there is no cost-effective way to re-initialize.

Of course, this is primarily of theoretical interest right now (note that the KM spacing for this rotation is practically perfect). Whether it will turn out to be viable is another question entirely, considering that Blizzard is probably nowhere near done tweaking their numbers on PTR.

With the recent changes on the PTR to BCB could a build going farther into Unholy like this:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...5&version=9658

be viable?

With BCB off CD it looks pretty attractive again.

Probably. Razorice is also buggy causing too many KM procs.

That's what i was referring to. Was just Wandering if anyone tested Razorice and Fallen crusader to determine rather the extra crits were worth it over the 15% str proc.

At 1250 strength, the FC proc gives you 187.5 (15%) Str, equaling 375 atk power which is pretty good, but I'm still unsure myself if 10% frost damage would outweigh this considering FC isn't up all the time.

To my knowledge FC proc also benefits from any Str increasing talents and double dips with UA. This also seems to be something we should consider.

Hmm the guile of gorefiend change is interesting:

Guile of Gorefiend now increases damage done by your Blood Strike, Frost Strike, Howling Blast and Obliterate abilities by 5/10/15%. (Old - Critical damage only, 15/30/45%)

This is a straight up nerf, correct? At first I thought it might have been a buff, but considering the high % that frost DKs are critting this surely must be a nerf.

Edit: Also, this seems like it would make subversion a little less mandatory and allow for more points in unholy.

Edit2:

Here's a quote from Eej, maker of the blood DPS thread. His math seems correct, so maybe I was too quick to jump the gun.

The MoM change is a nerf if you are at 30% crit for Blood, while the GoG change is a nerf if you are at 50% crit or higher for Frost. Here's a simple demonstration:

30% crit 1000 normal hits
Old Blood Obliterate 1000 hit, 2450 crit = 0.7 * 1000 + 0.3 * 2450 = 1435 average damage
New Blood Obliterate 1100 hit, 2200 crit = 0.7 * 1100 + 0.3 * 2200 = 1430 average damage

50% crit, 1000 normal hits
Old Frost Obliterate 1000 hit, 2450 crit = 0.5 * 1000 + 0.5 * 2450 = 1725 average damage
New Frost Obliterate 1150 hit, 2300 crit = 0.5 * 1150 + 0.5 * 2300 = 1725 average damage

So, since we get 24% crit or so from talents (just crit affecting oblit), that would only be 26% crit to nerf our oblits.

27% from talents if you count Annihilation. So 23% base crit.

/sadface

I love when the DK community comes up with new specs to try out and compare, so I tested what seems to be the THREE most viable Frost specs so far. Here are some CONSISTENT factors that were present for ALL THREE tests. I have provided screen shots and videos for all three. The video quality isn't the best... still trying to figure out how to get it up there on HD, but you can see the attack patterns I use.

1.) The Heroic Target dummy was below 35% (So yes, merciless combat was in effect)
2.) EP was present from one of the Unholy DK testers
3.) Fallen Crusader Rune (Even though it's kinda nerfed, didn't want Razorice to screw with the IT heavy spec)
4.) Glyphs where IT, FS and OB (Zero Minor glyphs since I don't really need them to test the dps)
5.) Each test was from Horn of Winter cast until it wore off (2 mins)
6.) NO COOLDOWNS WERE USED. Only used Blood Tap, no UA, AotD or ERW.

This post is not intended to say frost is better than any other dps spec, it's merely to compare multiple frost specs in an identical environment. I would have preferred a 100% dummy with no one else... good luck on the PTR That being said...

13 / 51 / 7 - OB Heavy, No pet


13 / 51 / 7 Video

OB heavy rotation with 3 crit, 3 BA, 2 Epidemic as listed in post #2.
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Awareness
Rotation: PS, IT, OB, BS, BS | OB OB OB > FS for KM, RP over 100 or runes on cooldown. HB on Freezing Fog only.


1 / 51 / 19 - OB Heavy w/Pet


1 / 51 / 19 Video

OB heavy rotation with Ghoul Pet, 3/3 Blood Caked, 1 Sub, 5 Necrosis.
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Awareness
Rotation: Same as above, added in pet is all.


20 / 51 / 0 - 6 Death Rune, IT Heavy, no pet


20 / 51 / 0 Video

IT heavy rotation with DRM (6 Death runes total)
Presence: Unholy
Sigil: Frozen Conscience
Rotation: IT, OB, BS, BS, Blood Tap + OB | FSx4 > Priority after this with Blood rune = BS, Unholy + Frost or Death = OB, otherwise Frost and Death are IT. Hit FS when RP is high or you notice KM proc. HB with freezing fog only.


Hope this helps some people in deciding which suites them best. I personally love the IT spam one, though I find the 13/51/7 to be pretty sexy and may start off with that when 3.1 goes live since it will scale better with gearing.

Great post, thanks for all the info.

Now then, I personally will be going the 1-51-19 route, as it only did slightly less damage then the Ob heavy one, and ghoul specs scale extremely well with raid buffs and heroism and the like. So in a pure unbuffed situation, OB heavy beats it, in a raiding situation I think ghoul really stands out. plus, that test was on a 0.001% combat dummy, thus having Necrosis and BCB do little to no damage, which could easily put it over the OB heavy one (Necrosis is about 5% of my damage and BCB is about 4% of my damage in raids, so an additional 9ish % dps to your current 3741 (ghoul + you) on the 1-51-19 spec, and you are suddenly at 4077 DPS. Now then, that is with Merc combat, but I still see deep frost + ghoul as the best way to go.

I was testing few build, and ended up with Deep frost +blood/unholy talents.
So far my favourite is 20/51/0 with Obli, IT and FS glyphs.
I'm plaing this with Unholy Presence and Razorice rune, when Razor will be fixed i'll take Cinderglacier (both are superior to current FC). There is no rotation really, only priorities: HB when rime procs, Obli and Blood Strike only for changing Blood and Unholy runes into Death, rest is IT spam until i have 130 RP, then 4x FS. Every single Death or Frost rune goes for IT, except when i need to launch Obli when Unholy rune is up.
I'm playing with IT sigil.

So far this build is slightly better for me than frost/unholy wiith Obliterates as primary skill and ghoul as a bonus and in Blood presence. I dont have Sigil of Awarness and my weapon is not really great (HoL heroic 2h axe), so Obli hits aren't impressive, besides this build it hard to manage due to ghoul without avoidance which requires some micro management on fight with AoE.

At the moment i'm pulling about 3,5k dps on heroic dummy (sustained) after dealing 2mln dmg. With Unbreakable Armor i can get nice spike of 4,5k dps (during UA).

I have (without any talents) 3,5k AP, 27% crit, 150 hit and 7 exp, so i need to get more hit, because 80-90% of dmg comes from spells, but i believe that this one will be really great in raid environment because debuffs like misery, CoE, Boomkin aura and other spell buffs will affect most of my dmg (IT, FS, HB).

Yeah I could see the Ghoul being much more of a badass with full raid buffs. Only question I raise then, and something we may not have an answer for yet, is what survivability will a non-NotD non-Frenzy ghoul have in Ulduar? I'd hate to have to spend half my RP spamming the Ghoul Death Coil macro to keep him from getting flattened. Also, if the ghoul is up, should we use Glyph of the Ghoul rather than IT? I know IT gives 10 more RP, but that's only 10-20 RP total in a full cycle whereas the Ghoul would gain more STR and HP, which double dips with full raid buffs. Thanks for the addition thoughts on pet dps / Blood Caked / Necrosis