Freezing Hell Over, One Step at a Time (Frost DPS) - Page 38

Nizari · 04/07/09, 7:01 AM

Originally Posted by Belzi.ET

With the new Pestilence-Glyph refreshing diseases I thought about a little different.

Start with: IT - PS - OB - BS - BS - rune dump

From then on rinse and repeat: OB - OB - Pest - IT - rune dump

A typical 20 second-part would contain:
4 OB
2 IT
2 Pest
4 FS (5 with 4T7)
Both diseases permanently runnning

This doesn't sound very top-notch, but I can see some nice pros with it. For once, your diseases will never drop off, even w/o any point in epidemic. Furthermore, your cycle always generates 65 RP (w/o 4T7) allowing 2 FS per 10 seconds; 4T7 will give you a fifth FS per 20 sec -> it is not as gear-dependent. Even on movement-heavy bosses you should never fail with this cycle and therefore don't have to restart a rotation with applying diseases. Last but not least, it's a 4 (+2 FS) CD-cycle giving you some spare time for HB-Procs or stuff-alike.

I have to admit, that you trade something for this flexibility. Compared with the mentioned PS/IT/OB/BS/BS dump > OB/OB/OB dump rotation you trade 2 BS, 1 IT and 1 PS for 2 IT and 2 Pest.

Oh, before I forget it. The Pest - IT part at the end of the 10 second-cycle could easily be changed mid-rotation without getting into cooldown or rune-problems. A OB - OB - Pest - UB comes to my mind.

I tried this out and got pretty much the same DPS as a 2/2 epidemic build with howling blast glyph. However JUST like that build I found 200 more DPS from being in unholy pressence >.<... I'm going to mark this down as largely to do with the 4p t7....
It seems that Unholy Pressence is more DPS unless you don't have enough RP to Frost Strike while all of your runes are still on cooldown.

Feyda · 04/07/09, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Doomers

About FC - bonus has been lowered from 30 to 15%, but the proc chance has been increased, this may lead up to perma proc, as I've seen 45-55% uptime using 2H.

Why is basic probability so difficult for people to understand? The math is not that difficult yet people make the same stupid mistakes over and over and over again.

Vaelzek · 04/07/09, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by belmarduk

I've also been getting higher results from fallen crusader, in pretty much every comparison test I did. Did they buff the procrate, or is non-bugged razorice really just that bad?

I didn't see it on the PTR notes anywhere on MMO-Champ, but RZ recently got nerfed back down to 5% stacks. Used to be/currently is 5%, went up to 10%, nerfed back down to 5%. Staying at 5% as well as fixing the KM proc bug would probably favor FC more, especially since Obl (which doesn't benefit from RZ) is becoming such a bigger part of Frost.

Originally Posted by Belzi.ET

With the new Pestilence-Glyph refreshing diseases I thought about a little different.

Start with: IT - PS - OB - BS - BS - rune dump

From then on rinse and repeat: OB - OB - Pest - IT - rune dump

A typical 20 second-part would contain:
4 OB
2 IT
2 Pest
4 FS (5 with 4T7)
Both diseases permanently runnning

This doesn't sound very top-notch, but I can see some nice pros with it. For once, your diseases will never drop off, even w/o any point in epidemic. Furthermore, your cycle always generates 65 RP (w/o 4T7) allowing 2 FS per 10 seconds; 4T7 will give you a fifth FS per 20 sec -> it is not as gear-dependent. Even on movement-heavy bosses you should never fail with this cycle and therefore don't have to restart a rotation with applying diseases. Last but not least, it's a 4 (+2 FS) CD-cycle giving you some spare time for HB-Procs or stuff-alike.

I have to admit, that you trade something for this flexibility. Compared with the mentioned PS/IT/OB/BS/BS dump > OB/OB/OB dump rotation you trade 2 BS, 1 IT and 1 PS for 2 IT and 2 Pest.

Oh, before I forget it. The Pest - IT part at the end of the 10 second-cycle could easily be changed mid-rotation without getting into cooldown or rune-problems. A OB - OB - Pest - UA comes to my mind.

Edit: made a mistake in the last sentence. It's Unbreakable Armor, not Unholy Blight...

I don't see that playstyle being very viable because you lose the holy trinity of Frost glyphs... FS/IT/OBL. You definitely would not want to drop FS or OBL, so adding in an extra IT to the rotation, but losing the glyph really makes no sense.

Hidden · 04/07/09, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Vaelzek

I didn't see it on the PTR notes anywhere on MMO-Champ, but RZ recently got nerfed back down to 5% stacks. Used to be/currently is 5%, went up to 10%, nerfed back down to 5%. Staying at 5% as well as fixing the KM proc bug would probably favor FC more, especially since Obl (which doesn't benefit from RZ) is becoming such a bigger part of Frost.

I can confirm this, after noticing the tooltip saying 5% on PTR I also tested it (with Frost Fever which doesn't have a damage range) and it's not only a tooltip error but really back at 5%.

In my tests using a HB>Oblit>BS>BS>Dump>HB>Oblit>Oblit>Oblit (using Rime procs as soon as possible) rotation I've also had more than 50% of my damage being physical, In this rotation the theoretical uptime of FC should be in the >80% range according to some quick calculations so you'll get an average increase of >12% Strength opposing to the ~2.5% damage boost of RI.

Lollersk8er · 04/07/09, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hidden

I can confirm this, after noticing the tooltip saying 5% on PTR I also tested it (with Frost Fever which doesn't have a damage range) and it's not only a tooltip error but really back at 5%.

You're right. That's not nice for DW, especially Frost. For 2h FC is now a no brainer.

Gaffadin · 04/08/09, 12:37 AM

For T7 which pieces are you guys wearing for the 4pc bonus, or do you go for all 5?

I think I'm likely to give Frost a try come 3.1 and I know what's BiS for Blood but not for Frost. I've got a lot of stuff in the bank (it was either take it or it's getting d/e'd) that I don't use for Blood that I can see as being maybe useful for Frost.

In particular I'm guessing my Grim Toll may not be amazing for Frost, even though it's helping me stay hit-capped. Although recent tests with the HB -> OB -> BS -> BS -> Dump -> HB -> OB -> OB -> Dump rotation have showed my physical damage percentage at somewhere between 52 and 53%, so perhaps ArP still has a place in Frost just not as a frontline stat (Str/Crit).

Belzi.ET · 04/08/09, 4:29 AM

Originally Posted by Vaelzek

*snip*
I don't see that playstyle being very viable because you lose the holy trinity of Frost glyphs... FS/IT/OBL. You definitely would not want to drop FS or OBL, so adding in an extra IT to the rotation, but losing the glyph really makes no sense.

You don't have to break the holy trinity of your glyphs.
In a comparison to IT/PS/OB/BS/BS dump > OB/OB/OB rotation you you IT twice as much, making the glyph even more valuable. Or you can swap the IT-glyph for HB-glyph to play with an alternate HB-heavy rotation for trash.

Or is it, that the Pestilence-glyph is a major one? I made a check on divine diary (blog) and he mentioned the glyph being a minor one.

Torrential · 04/08/09, 10:18 AM

[Glyph of Disease]

Edit: Heh, looks like the EJ item linking thingy can' t handle ptr. wowhead yet.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?item=45805

It's major. That would be one hell of a minor glyph. :o

Vaelzek · 04/08/09, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Belzi.ET

You don't have to break the holy trinity of your glyphs.
In a comparison to IT/PS/OB/BS/BS dump > OB/OB/OB rotation you you IT twice as much, making the glyph even more valuable. Or you can swap the IT-glyph for HB-glyph to play with an alternate HB-heavy rotation for trash.

Or is it, that the Pestilence-glyph is a major one? I made a check on divine diary (blog) and he mentioned the glyph being a minor one.

Glyph of Disease is a major glyph.

Seref · 04/08/09, 11:34 AM

Anyone have any stat weights for frost 3.1? I don't have PTR so I can't test them myself.

Thanks, -Seref

aldy · 04/08/09, 11:22 PM

This seems to come up continually in every DK DPS thread, every time there is a class change. As has been said before: you CANNOT judge BP vs UP on a test dummy; results on a raid boss won't be the same. Wait and get some data from boss fights.

Soath · 04/09/09, 8:46 AM

Thinking purely from a single target pespective. Is Glyph of Blood Strike a good 3rd Glyph? BS is used a lot after all.
Also does Chilblains proc the 20% extra from the glyph? I'm thinking of 1 point in it to make sure BS gets it's extra 20% damage.
Also would Chilblains appear on the boss even though we know it will be immune to the effect?

EwokChilli · 04/09/09, 9:41 AM

Previous tests on Live Sarth have shown that the debuff goes on the mob, it just doesn't do anything, which should activate BS glyph (at least that's what the Blood thread went over a month ago).

NeuronRider · 04/09/09, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by Soath

Thinking purely from a single target pespective. Is Glyph of Blood Strike a good 3rd Glyph? BS is used a lot after all.
Also does Chilblains proc the 20% extra from the glyph? I'm thinking of 1 point in it to make sure BS gets it's extra 20% damage.
Also would Chilblains appear on the boss even though we know it will be immune to the effect?

Using a major glyph to buff a strike that makes up ~5-6% of your overall DPS, compared to one that either makes up 25-30+% (Oblit/FS) or one with significant utility (HB/IT) is not a good strategy. Moreover, you're talking about glyphing for a strike that is otherwise basically un-enhanced by the entirety of the build in question, and makes up precisely 2 out of ~13 globals every 20 seconds.

On top of that, there's another opportunity cost incurred by taking Chillblains to trigger this glyph. You'd have to sacrifice a DPS talent point somewhere to achieve that 1.2% (tops) increase in DPS.

end3r · 04/09/09, 11:20 PM

I ok i have a question. Right now im useing a 27/44 build right now. I have glyph of FS, OB, IT. I use the six icy touch rotation. with the FS runic dump. I pull around 3500k in 25man and 2.4k in heroics. Im decently geared and was wondering if my build is a good build and rotation is a good one. Do yall have any good tips for me? here is a link to my build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.