A talent that allows you to hold 9.5k dps on Thorim phase 1 or Auriaya isn't "meh". Then there's Freya, there's Mimir phase 4, there's Kologarn, there's Razorscale and so on and so forth. HB is pretty amazing and while it doesn't replace Obliterate per se, it's gonna give you a lot more dps-per-rune in several situations in most fights.
There's positively no reason to go Frost if you don't take HB - you'll just have less single target dps than Blood and less aoe than Unholy.

Sustaining 9.5k dps on Thorim seems a tad excessive. I've not seen anyone in our raids doing more than 7k in the arena. Myself and one of our other DKs both do about 6.5-7k dps as blood in the arena, far above most of the raid, and significantly above our unholy DK. This *without* using BB or DnD, only HS/pest for AoE damage. Atm, BB is on top for AoE with the DRW bug. On trash pulls I can easily do 25k+ dps if there enough AoE mobs.

I won't deny that HB is a great AoE tool, but for single target it still is just "meh". It's really only used when you get a rime proc. I'll try it for next raid and see what happens on Thorim.

I ended last night's Thorim kill on 6.950 dps - and I promise you I wasn't holding 7k dps on the boss himself. I ended the arena event on 8.8k but I've had upwards of 9.6k depending on Ryme proccs. When there's aoe involved, HB + the glyph + Killing Machine + Ryme will generate absurdely high dps numbers.

When you mentioned the HB glyph, are you also doing the one disease rotation too? I've run through numbers several different ways to benefit that rotation, but it just doesn't seem to be more damage than the extra damage on OB, BS, etc. I see how using HB to apply FF could be nice for AoE situations, but not much worth replacing IT glyph if you use PS in your rotation.

Your right, and the general consensus is that you either have:

IT Glyph and run 2 diseases in either UP or BP depending on latency and whether you have 4t7
OR
HB Glyph and run 1 disease in BP and you mainly refresh FF by HB proc so you do not use the runes, instead using them on Oblit which evens out the dmg really well, and when you get a string of procs it far exceeds the above in damage.

At the end of the day however damage between these two options seems pretty close and each will do better for different fights. From personally experience however with all the running around in Ulduar I like to have UP so I am running the first.

Once again....

Are you using HB glyph? If yes, then you run solo disease.

Are you using IT glyph? If yes, then you run double disease.

HB is still good for single target DPS *IF* you use it only on Rime procs, if you have to expend runes on it in a single target fight often then you are losing dps.

Beyond single target lets look and see which bosses HB is really good for:


FL - No
Ignis - No
Razorscale - Absolutely amazing, use it on cooldown most of the time.
XT - Potentially absolutely amazing if you need to OT in 10 man (I OT in dps gear/frost presence and still routinely pull 6500 on 10 man) or if you need to help scrapbots
Kologarn - Absolutely amazing
Auriya - Absolutely amazing
Iron Council - No (but ranged application of FF that hits hard is nice when running between bosses)
Freya - Absolutely amazing
Thorim - Absolutely amazing
Hodir - No
Mimiron - Absolutely amazing
General Vezax - No
Yogg-Saron - pretty decent, not *too* much aoe going on

and this is just from a DPS on bosses perspective. 8/12 bosses. I'm just completely dumbstruck that there are actually people on this forum that are arguing AGAINST Howling Blast. Have you...not raided in Ulduar?

And as for the extra damage on OB and BS....*do some tests* and see what your dps difference is, see what your average OB damage is between the two specs, trust me, its very very small. Some of the main reasons that I prefer the HB BP rotation over IT/PS UP:

1) IT eats KM procs and does crap damage, if HB eats a KM proc it still does a very nice chunk.

2) After the first HB it is very common for me to not ever have to spend runes to apply my disease (Rime procs) and therefor can spam more OB (especially with 13/51/7). This is especially important when you have a limited time in which to do the most damage possible, and I believe the HB BP pulls ahead here as you only use your most damaging attacks. (Though for certain situations I'm sure that, if you have ERW up, UP GCD advantage will pull ahead for that window like Mimiron P3 and XT Heart)

EDIT: In my personal experience the only encounter in Ulduar that I switch to UP for is the Yogg-Saron fight. For every other fight I have been able to survive no problem with BP + minor speed on boots. Initially when my guild was learning Ulduar I was fanatical about UP and its advantages, but once you smooth out the execution of your fights and can anticipate what is going to happen next it becomes less mandatory. Plus I love the HB glyph and the rotation catches a lot of dead time if you run it in UP.

For the most part I agree with you Erek.

If you spam HB every cooldown or get the proc before FF falls off you not only save the runes for an oblit but your secondary targets you hit gain roughly 40% damage on each following HB because they are afflicted with FF from the previous ( I think please correct me if I am wrong). Your HB skyrockets and as mentioned above if you get a string of procs its amazing.

My issues with the HB approach are as follows:
1) You really cant use this approach in UP, or at least I have not been able too. There is too much down time and it just falls off the map damage wise. ( My experiences and maybe I was doing something wrong )
2) I do not like having my DPS so influenced by RNG. If you do not get a proc before FF falls off your DPS plummets
3) I believe this approach does not work as well with certain cool downs which scale with the extra disease ( UA, Trinkets, Heroism, EPW )
4) Does not work as well as IT Glyph approach with 4t8 ( which btw anyone have any more information on that mechanic or calculations, have done them myself and I believe they are horribly wrong )
5) It clips disease ticks, however this can be mitigated with well timing


And I have just thought of a little different rotation for encounters where spamming HB would be beneficial as IT Glyph approach:
IT -> PS -> BS -> Pest -> HB
Oblit -> Oblit -> HB

Maybe everyone knows this and I am slow off the train but would this work as well as I think. Surely the extra damage that HB would do to afflicted targets of FF and the spreading of BP would make up for BS. Or instead of the BS and Oblit do 3 BBs because the BBs would scale better with 2 diseases?

Anyways, please correct me if I am wrong, still kinda new at this theory crafting thing.

If you mean 4/5 T8, it works like we assume it does. I tested it on the PTR. It's not a bonus we absolutely have to aim for.

1) Correct, you cannot run HB glyph rotation in UP without losing maximum DPS
2) I also do not like having my DPS influenced by RNG and therefor why I use 13/51/7 for the extra time on diseases, even though I don't use PS (I have the 2 points in Dodge, actually): there is a very low chance that I will go through all of those OB in the 21 second window without activating Rime, however with the 15 second diseases it happens a *lot* (at least, to me).
3) Again, I dispute that the difference between 1 disease and 2 is statistically significant, even with the t8 bonus, but I am open to the possibility of being proven wrong. Also, in relation to CDs I find that with TellMeWhen or a similar buff monitor, Frost does very well with stacking buffs. As for Unbreakable Armor, try to make sure you stagger cds so that it is available during a sub-35% phase, and use it following 2x BS with Blood Tap in order to preserve your rotation and continue to max out on OB
4) I don't understand your logic as to how IT glyph is better. If you are running in UP then you aren't using HB glyph, in which case the IT glyph is the obvious choice. However, the incoming nerf of t7 is making UP rotations harder to maintain without AMS soaks
5) In terms of your overall damage, ticks of FF are pretty low. I'd much rather get a free re-application that does thousands of damage.

And also, when you're debating rotations and priorities, the general assumption is that we're talking about single target dps, because HB is superior to OB whenever there is a 2nd target up that HB can hit, and OB is superior to HB for single target *unless* your FF is about to fall off.

On some fights, I prioritize HB over OB on cooldown...Kologarn, Phase 4 Mimiron, etc. That's the great thing about Frost dps: a dynamic priority system that doesn't rely on pet-cds (DRW, Gargoyle) to do maximum damage.

I'm actually mind boggled that people can comfortably run 13/51/7. Frost DPS relies heavily on its high crit chances to dish out big numbers, giving up 5% crit for an extra 6 seconds on diseases is incomprehensible to me, especially the cost of having it is 2 wasted talent points in Vicious Strikes given that you never even use PS.

Just looking back on my combat log for a pug nax, my Obliterate is coming in at around 66% crit, and Frost Strike is going between 50-65% crit depending on how lucky I get with KM procs. Giving up 4% (not 5%) crit is unfortunate, but hardly the huge deal that you make it out to be. In fact, I personally weight Crit very, very low on the scale seeing as we have KM for our most damaging attack, plus talents like Subversion and Rime that boost crit.

If you constantly have to *use runes* on Howling Blast to keep your disease up, then you are losing dps. *In my experience* I get higher dps with 13/51/7 more consistently. Sure, if I luck out and get Rime procs every rotation, 17/51/3 is better. I have tried it out on dummies and Ulduar bosses (Gen V extensively)...I get higher dps with 13/51/7. Heck, I just did Thaddius and TWICE I went through 21 second duration diseases without *any* Rime procs. Think of those 4 talent points giving you more OBs instead of worrying so much about crit.

Deleted.

Unfortunately Frost with the HB glyph gets the least out of T8. The crit bonus applies to like one third of your FS's and since your're using only one disease, you'll get a tiny bonus on your Oblit's. I truely hope they change the two piece bonus to +%dmg.

Say what now? Did you mix my post with some HB fanboys post ?
In my opinion 13/51/7 with IT glyph is superior already now and even more with T8 set bonus. Both specs have their good and bad, but I just cant find the bad in 2 diseases spec right now.

One thing what I have been thinking about tho is that do you guys expect Sigil of Awareness to work better than Sigil of Vengeful Heart after we gather 4x T8 gear ? I am one of those guys who doesn't use math, i test everything in raids.

Yes, the 2 piece is lack-luster for Frost but saying that you have KM up for 2/3 of your Frost Strikes is being a little generous don't you think? If they change the 2 piece to +% dmg on Frost Strike/Death Coil it would be massively overpowered for Frost (like the new sigil)...I think they'd be better off completely revamping the bonuses altogether. I look at the other bonuses for other classes and they are amazing...and ours is a 1% DPS increase for the spec to which it has the most benefit (Blood DPS thread)? Yeah....makes sense.

But anyways, back to the Oblit issue. Of course, I'm open to be proven wrong and I will test it myself as soon as I get shoulders or gloves for 4 piece, but *FOR FROST* the t8 4 piece bonus does not look game-breaking at all. Let's look at a ~6 minute dps screenshot I just did right now. Now, note that I have Awareness and one I switch to Vengeful Heart my OB will be even less of my total damage.



Now, before I do this extremely horrible math, note that I am extremely horrible at math, but I'm going to do it in a way that (I think) will be the most beneficial to t8 bonus. If I (and therefor my conclusions) am incredibly mistaken, please correct me

423,855 total OB damage, multiply that by .20 in order to get an additional 20% bonus (yes, massive shortcut: the real bonus will in no way be this large) and you get a bonus damage of 84,771 out of a total damage pool of 1,356,069

To see how big of a difference this is for our total dps, take the initial OB damage + bonus damage (423,855+84,771=508,626), divide that by the new total damage (1,356,069+84,771=1,440,840) so we get 508,626 / 1,440,840 x 100 = 35.3% of our total damage

This is compared to the 31.3% overall contribution that OB has originally.

Horrible math disregarded, the actual set bonus is probably *less* effective than this measurement for Frost DPS. So, forgive me if I'm not really worried about the disease scaling on an ability that only adds up to ~1/3 of my DPS, and especially still when that 1/3 will soon be less than that once I replace my Sigil.

Note that this is all TC and has no real-game experience to back it up though I hope to remedy that tonight if I am lucky!

If you are going for 4/5 T8 you would want to use 2 diseases (as 13/51/7 most likely), additionally 4/5 bonus also affect Blood Strike. In summary when you put 2 diseases on target your OB and BS will do 5% more damage.

Also switching to T8 most likely seal use of BP over UP as even with same dps from both BP provides 15% more aoe damage and small self-heal vs 15% run speed.

Now given WWS from Ignis from 13/51/7 UP/BP you can calculate values of "new" T7 and T8 bonuses quite easily aside maybe from UP to BP switch.

I think the obvious choice now is 2-piece T8 (chest/gloves), hard-mode ilevel 239 drops (leggings/helmet), and the shoulders off Auriaya. The stats on the other 3 pieces of T8 are terrible and the loss of the completely lackluster 4-piece bonus is more than made up for by the superior stats on the non-set items available.

Well that is most likely choice, and possibly for all specs too. However that will take some time and I think problem for now is helm/shoulders T7 vs T8 as they have pretty much same value and you just changing bonus. And if we look at it that way we have 5% OB crit vs 5% OB and BS damage so T8 wins but it is not live and death.

In short:
1) Get T8 gloves (BiS), chest (BiS non-hit) and legs (upgrade).
2) Switch helm and/or shoulders to T8 if possible. Both will be best choice as you won't get ilvl239 helm and legs at once.
3) Get ilvl239 helm and legs.

Just did some tests on the Acherus dummy to compare the difference in OB damage between solo and double disease and IT/HB glyph, here are my findings (all tests done in Blood Presence for 10 minutes, using Horn and UA, etc)

1) IT double disease - 3823.9 dps, avg OB crit 8689, avg OB hit 3401
2) IT single disease - 3569 dps, avg OB crit 7802, avg OB hit 3091
3) HB single disease - 3971, avg OB crit 7961, avg OB hit 3151

So, as expected, double disease increases OB damage, but at the cost of overall dps. These are only test dummies, and this is only for single target dps and the HB single disease came out ahead (for me), so you can easily see why this is significantly superior in any fight where you're hitting multiple targets.

It is worth noting however that this is not a real-raid situation, and one should never consider these tests as solid proof, what with the relatively small sample size and lack of raid buffs.

OB will scale far more in a raid environment than HB will aside from AoE so going from these results alone one could be mislead. This is not to say that the winner is obvious either way but maybe getting some friends to apply major buffs/debuffs to the dummy could help in the debate. My gut (and Theorycraft) says 2 Disease should be leading in a raid environment.

If you were to repeat the tests with buffs Getting the most common ones in even 10 mans like Sunder+FF, EP, Winter's Chill, LotP, Totem of Wrath, Kings, and Battle Shout could go a long way in determining possible leaders.

Im inclined to disagree seeing as no matter if I have self buffs or raid buffs the relative % of my total damage is unchanged. For instance, looking at the last parse of XT, OB is 27.1% of my dps, and in my screenshot of my last recount I'm looking at, OB is 27.9% of my dps.

Double disease should indeed be leading in a raid environment....*IF* the largest % of our damage came from an ability that scaled with those diseases. The way I look at it, is that you sacrifice Blood Plague/PS in order to get more OBs (and therefor Rime procs). If you have 5 OBs that hit for 8500 apiece +ticks of blood plague +ps damage vs 6 OBs that hit for 8000 without the blood plague, you will do more overall damage with the 6 OBs even though on average your OBs hit for less.

That is not a real scenario with real math, simply a way of explaining it seeing as I'm mathematically challenged

I think that PS+BP+IT is more damage than one OB and that's not even counting in the four pieces T8 bonus. I don't have any good numbers here right now, but some rough math I did shows it.
In a real raid situation it will all be very close together. The HB rotation can use extra rp from AMS better, since it uses less gcd's. At Ignis and XT-002 you can constantly fill up your rp and almost every other boss has some magic aoe, too. You can also use HB while running to your next target, it's better for weak mobs and we won't start talking about aoe. Double disease does more single target damage.
In the end it more or less comes down to personal preference. You could make a frost dualspec, if you want to minmax your char for bosses like Vezax. The BS glyph is nice for single target dps btw.