Just running a very simple comparison between "normal" rotations and a DRM IT spamm one:
All this assuming T8 gear, IT glyph, Butchery and HoW:
A) PS IT OB BS BS - OB OB OB
generates 153 RP
B) PS IT BS BS OB - OB IT IT OB
generates 183 RP
C) OB OB BS BS - IT IT IT IT IT IT (assumes a first PS IT OB BS BS - OB IT IT IT IT cicle)
generates 228 RP
So in a comparison:
A) 1 PS, 1 IT, 2 BS, 4 OB, 4 FS
B) 1 PS, 3 IT, 2 BS, 3 OB, 5 FS
C) 2 BS, 2 OB, 6 IT, 7 FS
Assuming that B) beats A), then we have:
B) + 1 PS, +1 OB, Blood Plague
vs
C) +3 IT, +2 FS
My money is on C.
Edit: I forgot the 5 extra talented RP on OB. Doesn't change the balance in the short range but it means that over time B will get an extra FS every 2 rotations. So it's a 1.5 FS if you are going to spend at least 40 seconds on the target.
I think you messed up the analysis a little bit. You assumed you can spam 6 straight ITs, which I don't think will work. Specifically, I don't think you'd be able to ever get around to a 6x IT rotation, as from your intial rotation, you're always going to have at least one combination of Frost/Unholy runes.
Under that assumption, you get:
IT / PS / OB / BS /BS / DUMP (25+10+20+10+10=75 RP)
OB / IT / IT / IT / IT DUMP (20+25+25+25+25=120 RP)
VS.
IT / PS / OB / BS /BS / DUMP (25+10+20+10+10=75 RP)
OB / IT / PS / IT / IT DUMP (20+25+10+25+25=105 RP)
So, you'll lose 3% hit (or 3% crit, depending on what spec you take), damage from PS+BP (and lose a marginal amount of damage from clipping Frost Fever). In return, you'll gain the damage from IT and 15 RP.
Personally, I'm undecided about whether or not this is worth it, so I'm going to wait for someone to give this a shot and post a parse.
I think you messed up the analysis a little bit. You assumed you can spam 6 straight ITs, which I don't think will work. Specifically, I don't think you'd be able to ever get around to a 6x IT rotation, as from your intial rotation, you're always going to have at least one combination of Frost/Unholy runes.
Under that assumption, you get:
IT / PS / OB / BS /BS / DUMP (25+10+20+10+10=75 RP)
OB / IT / IT / IT / IT DUMP (20+25+25+25+25=120 RP)
VS.
IT / PS / OB / BS /BS / DUMP (25+10+20+10+10=75 RP)
OB / IT / PS / IT / IT DUMP (20+25+10+25+25=105 RP)
So, you'll lose 3% hit (or 3% crit, depending on what spec you take), damage from PS+BP (and lose a marginal amount of damage from clipping Frost Fever). In return, you'll gain the damage from IT and 15 RP.
Personally, I'm undecided about whether or not this is worth it, so I'm going to wait for someone to give this a shot and post a parse.
Mmmh. The problem is the initial rotation. You can then go:
F/U: OB F/U: OB B/B: BS BS
At this point you have 6 death runes, no? So you can spamm IT 6 times. On long fights the dps gain is probably enough to be able to keep doing the rotation and still gain damage even if you spend 10 seconds without diseases.
If you're hell bent on starting with IT, you can probably:
PS IT OB BS BS - OB IT IT IT IT
now runes return ad FF UU BB, and you go:
OB OB BS BS (FF is thicking)
now all runes return as death runes and you can use 6 IT.
I don't get the problem, honestly.
** What I really mean is, you're not gonna care about blood plague. You use PS once because you need to apply FF and so you have a spare unholy rune, but from then on, you'll have half rotation using OB and BS to generate death runes, and half IT spamm rotation. IT will be covering the "diseaseless" part of the rotation easily in UH presence.
Hmmm...it's an interesting idea. I'm still not entirely sold, but I'm going to investigate this further.
On a similar note, everyone I've seen is saying that you would drop 3/3 Virulence in order to pick up 3/3 DRM. However, if you're going to be spamming IT that much, it seems like it might be more beneficial to drop 5/5 Dark Conviction -> 2/5 DC. This still gives you a reasonable chance at getting spell-hit capped, though you will lose 3% crit.
Hmmm...it's an interesting idea. I'm still not entirely sold, but I'm going to investigate this further.
On a similar note, everyone I've seen is saying that you would drop 3/3 Virulence in order to pick up 3/3 DRM. However, if you're going to be spamming IT that much, it seems like it might be more beneficial to drop 5/5 Dark Conviction -> 2/5 DC. This still gives you a reasonable chance at getting spell-hit capped, though you will lose 3% crit.
I'm finding it exceedingly easy to get over the hitcap with Ulduar gear. I think the issue may rise at BiS hardmode-loot levels, but if the specc performs well, you can probably use the Yogg 25 mace over Voldrethar in a BiS set and be done with it.
And personally, interesting or not I find this kind of specc wrong. Using all runes for a single ability isn't "working as intended". However, we're here to find the best dps rotation in the end.
Well, the sooner this rotation becomes popular, the sooner Blizzard becomes aware of the problem and the sooner they can fix it.
But what IS the fix? To know that we have to know the problem, and the problem seems to be that Blizzard has a hard time scaling Frost versus Blood and Unholy, because Frost is one type of priority (Our RP dump is far and away the best ability we have, versus our runes which are only there to power it), and Blood and Unholy are both the other type (Their Rune abilities are far and away more powerful than their RP dump(s), which are only there to fill in the gaps between rune cooldowns). It's tough to balance RP generation, especially with things like Glyph of Icy Touch and the T7 4 piece bonus around, because they give a much more powerful option: use those abilities at the expense of other abilities (that presumably they want you to still use) in order to edge out even more RP to use Frost Strike more.
So how do they make this right? Do they take away the Glyph of Icy Touch, changing it to something like "increases the damage of your Icy Touch by %"? That certainly seems like the first route they will take. But that just leaves us in a worse position than being reliant on it, because at that point we fall behind Blood and Unholy in terms of damage, unless we go with a single-disease HB rotation (which I'm not sure they like, either... they want us to use Plague Strike).
Do they nerf Frost Strike and buff Obliterate? No, I don't think that would work. Frost's "flavor" is having a really hard hitting single target, armor-ignoring strike, and that needs to stay - even if it is powered by runic power. Frost Strike had problems in beta because it wasn't fun to use as an on-next-swing ability. Eventually they built it up to be the focus of the spec, and that made it interesting.
I don't think Ghostcrawler will find that a "simple fix" will work for this one without damaging the class and making even more people spec Unholy or Blood. We may need something like a talent (possibly not even one deep in the tree, as Blood and Unholy specs have inferior RP dumps) that further increases our RP generation, maybe even artificially (Your Frost Strikes have a 33% chance to cost half their normal Runic Power)(Your Rime-procced Howling Blast now generates X runic power), in tandem with a change to the IT glyph.
I just really hope they don't nerf the IT glyph and then do nothing else, leaving us high-and-dry.
That's a tough question. Blood DK's may argue that buffing something to make frost generate more RP would be unfair to them since we normally do more damage than them in an AoE style encounter (or at least I seem to beat every blood DK I come across... of course you cannot always vouch for the skill of another player). Buffing our biggest hitter through a talented RP increase would make some cry foul.
I suppose our argument would be that unholy does great damage in both AoE and single target encounters and that the T8 bonus along with all the ArP gear in Ulduar makes us think Blizzard cares more about blood for dps. I guess they could make FS hit even harder and take away the extra RP from the IT glyph, but I don't think they planned for over half our damage to come from one source, which is possible considering the new sigil if they buffed FS.
Another solution would be to make FS or rime (preferably FS since it is less streaky) produce some type of chilled effect that ticked like a disease increasing the damage of obliterate similar to what the 3rd disease for unholy does. They could make it not spread to other targets through pestilence so that it would not dip too heavily into unholy's bag of tricks... or potentially make the "chilled" effect grant 10% extra damage to your next (fill in a number) offensive attacks (not diseases)... in effect "shattering" them. Make it a debuff called "Brittle Armor" or something.
The last suggestion may be cool in that it promotes more FS weaving to not waste charges since proper weaving of FS to eat KM proc's is already the mark of a good frost DK.
I like that idea. Some synergy between Frost Strike and Obliterate could go a long way to encourage using frost runes on Oblit instead of IT spam, and it even has a good theme going with Frost Strike freezing them and Obliterate shattering them.
I'm thinking the solution should have more to do with buffing Obliterate rather than nerfing IT again. Making Oblit more important would reduce IT spam because they both compete for frost runes, and it would also encourage using Blood Plague. It wouldn't diminish the role of Howling Blast either now because of Rime (rather, it would provide more chances for Rime procs).
I agree. The synergy is nice along with the fact it is such a deep talent that it won't tempt blood DK's to stop using DS or unholy DK's to stop using SS in lieu of the enhanced obliterate. It also cements Obliterate as the king of rune based abilities for frost and returns IT to the same value in all three trees. An increased emphasis on using blood plague to further buff an enhanced obliterate would also give us more benefit from the T8 bonus further balancing it to the respective talent trees.
I disagree however on Blizz wanting us to use Plague Strike. The HB would make no sense otherwise. If you need to use Plague Strike, using Icy Touch is more damage efficent to apply FF than using HB. And since having Ryme proccs apply FF wouldn't remove your need to apply BP, you would still have a spare rune for BP.
If the purpose of the HB glyph is to spread FF on many targets in a single gcd (which most DKs who use the glyph don't, as throwing a pestilence on your main target is more damage efficent), then it should be a minor at best.
We frosties have constated a fair amount of mitigated (resisted ?) dammage on FS (from 1,6 to 5% depending on the encounter).
We wondered if it wasn't magic resistance from the boss (obviously superior to 165) that wasn't suppressed by the warlock curse.
So we came to wonder if spell pen wouldn't be an help to dps (as we're not that convinced that 23 haste or 22 agi is such a "great" improvement for a frosty).
Some very quick testing with a 35 pene enchant on cloack tend to prove that it does reduce the amount of mitigated FS.
I couldn't find a lot of informations yet on Ulduar bosses magic resistance (investigated very quickly this morning, i'll check in tools like rawr what is the default MR ) so i was wondering:
If anyone constated the same amount of mitigated dmg on FS ?
Is magic resistance from the boss the cause ?
Did anyone tested spell pene and does this reduce also for you the amount of mitigated dammage ?
Read quickly the 45 page of the thread but i didn't came across thoses questions or answers (then again i'm slippy so i may have failed on this)
If anyone constated the same amount of mitigated dmg on FS ?
Is magic resistance from the boss the cause ?
Did anyone tested spell pene and does this reduce also for you the amount of mitigated dammage ?
Bosses have an innate magic damage migitation that is based on the level difference that can not be decreased by spell penetration.
Heya guys i was just wondering if someone could tell me a really good rotation. atm im using IT , PS, OB til its on CD then FS til no RP left and pestilience then just RP from OB and FS. I would really like someone to tell me if there is any rly good rotation as frost dps atm
Heya guys i was just wondering if someone could tell me a really good rotation. atm im using IT , PS, OB til its on CD then FS til no RP left and pestilience then just RP from OB and FS. I would really like someone to tell me if there is any rly good rotation as frost dps atm
Kind Regards Ktyz.
We really need to update the frost dps page, because otherwise people is gonna keep asking these questions and get moderated.
I'll give a shot at making a new compilation thread, I should be able to be fairly active and keep it updated.
We really need to update the frost dps page, because otherwise people is gonna keep asking these questions and get moderated.
I'll give a shot at making a new compilation thread, I should be able to be fairly active and keep it updated.
yeah that would be awesome. I really hope that i could figure out the best rotation on my own but i wanted to see what other players were using
But what IS the fix? I just really hope they don't nerf the IT glyph and then do nothing else, leaving us high-and-dry.
I would LIKE to see the IT glyph nerfed just so that IT spam rotations die completely. I thought this had occurred with the last patch, but as I can see, the RP generated from IT still makes it worth looking at. Personally, I would like to see HB glyph apply both diseases, since applying one is just kind of silly for dps. Another thing they could do is change FS to do the same damage now (base) and then add more per disease, but I believe that is unlikely as well. If they allow rime procs to generate the full RP from HB, it would help, but not be a full remedy. Maybe if they changed glyph of BS to generating 5-10 more RP, we might be in business. Outside of gaining death runes, use of BS just feels like dead time.
On another note, everyone still claims that FS is our best ability, yet I've seen OB hit harder, especially with the increasing amount of armor pen in Ulduar gear. This may also be due to Awareness over Vengeful Heart, but a guildie of mine was hitting OB for ~3800, and FS for ~3300, then factor in the OB has about 10% more crit. With the switch in sigils, FS may hit harder, but still won't scale with armor pen that is on everything. Just to reiterate though, this is only one player, not the general population. I just wanted to throw this out for discussion.
I would LIKE to see the IT glyph nerfed just so that IT spam rotations die completely. I thought this had occurred with the last patch, but as I can see, the RP generated from IT still makes it worth looking at. Personally, I would like to see HB glyph apply both diseases, since applying one is just kind of silly for dps. Another thing they could do is change FS to do the same damage now (base) and then add more per disease, but I believe that is unlikely as well. If they allow rime procs to generate the full RP from HB, it would help, but not be a full remedy. Maybe if they changed glyph of BS to generating 5-10 more RP, we might be in business. Outside of gaining death runes, use of BS just feels like dead time.
On another note, everyone still claims that FS is our best ability, yet I've seen OB hit harder, especially with the increasing amount of armor pen in Ulduar gear. This may also be due to Awareness over Vengeful Heart, but a guildie of mine was hitting OB for ~3800, and FS for ~3300, then factor in the OB has about 10% more crit. With the switch in sigils, FS may hit harder, but still won't scale with armor pen that is on everything. Just to reiterate though, this is only one player, not the general population. I just wanted to throw this out for discussion.
That is just a matter of sigils. My OB hits for more than FS on average, but if I manage to see a Vengeful Heart drop, my FSs will go up 1k and my OB will go down 500 dmg. In the end the FS sigil is much, much better.
FS definitely has a higher crit rate due to Killing Machine. Last recount I can pull off the top of my head showed FS at 50% crit self-buffed (around 23% actual crit).
That is just a matter of sigils. My OB hits for more than FS on average, but if I manage to see a Vengeful Heart drop, my FSs will go up 1k and my OB will go down 500 dmg. In the end the FS sigil is much, much better.
I absolutely agree with this. However, what about armor pen and higher crit on OB? Will there be enough for OB to still hit harder given the absurd amount of armor pen obtainable in Ulduar? Another thing is the 4pc bonus. I haven't read far enough back in this thread to check if it is necessary for frost, but I know it's not needed for blood. If you do take it, that's another ~4% more OB damage. At the very least it might be close and worth looking into.
Edit: I just ran a sim with frost spec, vengeful heart, and BiS *blood* gear that has high armor pen (520). It came out with average OB at 7843 and average FS at 7432.
I hope this isnt repeating something old but after a quick search I couldnt find anything old on this subject.
im very interested in the possibility of a 2/51/18 build.
The idea is to take a slow 230dps or 240dps weapon, namely the pvp weapon rewards.
Fight in unholy pressence, stack some haste.
Take points in imp icy talons and, blood caked blade and necrosis.
Rotation would be:
ps > it > bs > bs > obl > RP dump || obl > obl > obl > RP dump
It may be necessery to dump RP between rune skills as with icy touch glyph i would expect runic power to build up to 130 fairly fast.
Obviousely HB would be used whenever it pops up to but just after the swing timer.
Sigil of vengefull heart would be desirable for this and the following glyphs:
FS, OBl, IT
If anyone has vengull heart and some nice gear + the time / willingness to test this then it would be really interesting to see the results. Unfortuantely my guild needs me as a tank and dont even have top end dps gear QQ
I absolutely agree with this. However, what about armor pen and higher crit on OB? Will there be enough for OB to still hit harder given the absurd amount of armor pen obtainable in Ulduar? Another thing is the 4pc bonus. I haven't read far enough back in this thread to check if it is necessary for frost, but I know it's not needed for blood. If you do take it, that's another ~4% more OB damage. At the very least it might be close and worth looking into.
Edit: I just ran a sim with frost spec, vengeful heart, and BiS *blood* gear that has high armor pen (520). It came out with average OB at 7843 and average FS at 7432.
The problem is that BiS Frost gear is another planet from BiS blood gear. I was BiS blood from head to toes pre Ulduar and I got a sensible dps increase from "inferior" gear like [Mirror of Truth] or from downgrading [Melancholy Sabatons] to the Council 10 boots and going way below the expertise cap for some extra ap. Frost is a fully different beast.
Btw, ever since I returned to Frost since 3.1, never in any fight or simulation or totem pole test or instance run Obliterate has contributed more than Frost Strike to my dps - ever. I've run a test with 2t7/2t8 in the lunchbreak, with Awareness, to stack up all the odds for Obliterate, and Frost Strike still came on top with 28% of my dmg compared to OB's 23%.
I absolutely agree with this. However, what about armor pen and higher crit on OB? Will there be enough for OB to still hit harder given the absurd amount of armor pen obtainable in Ulduar? Another thing is the 4pc bonus. I haven't read far enough back in this thread to check if it is necessary for frost, but I know it's not needed for blood. If you do take it, that's another ~4% more OB damage. At the very least it might be close and worth looking into.
Edit: I just ran a sim with frost spec, vengeful heart, and BiS *blood* gear that has high armor pen (520). It came out with average OB at 7843 and average FS at 7432.
In BiS Blood gear you're going out of your way to buff Oblit at the expense of all your other skills (save Auto and BS). If you want to run an Oblit heavy rotation, your BiS gear for that purpose is in the EJ BiS thread and has a moderate amount of Armor Pen, which is what you should use in a comparison. You're also forgetting that in 2 rotations through your runes you'll do 3-4 Oblits, you'll do 5 or more FS depending on your RP level.
Why not use the latest version? It's been of some help to me.
Interesting that the existence of this spreadsheet isn't more well known. Having neither spreadsheet experience (as in making one, not using one) or any real math knowledge I can't check the formulas in the sheet. I was wondering if anyone could attest to its accuracy. I only ask because with my given inputs it showed a 400 DPS gain going from Unholy to Frost, with only a Glyph swap. Since servers are down for the patch right now I can't do any kind of testing, but you can be sure the first thing I will be doing when servers come back up is checking to see if tests support the sheet (obviously Dummy tests won't be that accurate, so I'll have to wait for a raid to try that).
I'm new to the Frost thread, and I read a few pages back and didn't see anything on this, though if I missed something please excuse me.
05/18/09, 10:51 AM
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