FS definitely has a higher crit rate due to Killing Machine. Last recount I can pull off the top of my head showed FS at 50% crit self-buffed (around 23% actual crit).
Not true. As you can see here my Obliterate has an average crit rate of about 68%, while FS sits around 60%. This is due to Oblit recieving much more +crit from talents than FS and because I still have 2p T7. However, even without the 2p, I would still be seeing Oblit at a marginally higher crit rate than FS.
The problem is that BiS Frost gear is another planet from BiS blood gear. I was BiS blood from head to toes pre Ulduar and I got a sensible dps increase from "inferior" gear like [Mirror of Truth] or from downgrading [Melancholy Sabatons] to the Council 10 boots and going way below the expertise cap for some extra ap. Frost is a fully different beast.
Btw, ever since I returned to Frost since 3.1, never in any fight or simulation or totem pole test or instance run Obliterate has contributed more than Frost Strike to my dps - ever. I've run a test with 2t7/2t8 in the lunchbreak, with Awareness, to stack up all the odds for Obliterate, and Frost Strike still came on top with 28% of my dmg compared to OB's 23%.
I understand that blood and frost BiS are different, but there is still a very large gap between OB and FS damage when I ran the sim. It was with 4pc t8 which I did fail to mention. When I took the bonus out for the sim, OB was still about 450 damage higher than FS. When I took off 300 armor pen from the sim, OB's damage dropped about 1000, significantly below FS, but overall OB and FS were each 28% of the damage. Depending on how much armor pen you have, OB could be better than
As for the 28% FS and 23% OB damage, what rotation are you looking at? When I was running frost last night (4pc t7.5, UP, 13/51/7, Awareness) I was getting 35% FS and 28% OB damage.
I understand that blood and frost BiS are different, but there is still a very large gap between OB and FS damage when I ran the sim. It was with 4pc t8 which I did fail to mention. When I took the bonus out for the sim, OB was still about 450 damage higher than FS. When I took off 300 armor pen from the sim, OB's damage dropped about 1000, significantly below FS, but overall OB and FS were each 28% of the damage. Depending on how much armor pen you have, OB could be better than
As for the 28% FS and 23% OB damage, what rotation are you looking at? When I was running frost last night (4pc t7.5, UP, 13/51/7, Awareness) I was getting 35% FS and 28% OB damage.
OB might hit harder than FS with all that armor pen. However, you're going to lose FS's with an OB heavy rotation (as gear stands now), and OB will probably barely beat out FS's damage contribution. Instead, generating more RP and getting more FS's while still maintaing some armor pen and a couple of OB's will more than likely net more dps and overall damage.
Note how much RP was gained from IT glyph and how Frost Strike is 30% of my damage. Still getting a feel for the spec, but I like the mobility and the flexibility.
I will update this post with WWS report links from my raids this week: 10 man tonight, 25's Wed, Thur, Sun night. Crossing my fingers for the [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart]
Please PM me if you have any suggestions or would like me to try anything.
-Picked up the 10 man T8 shoulders, tonight in 25's I will try the spec/rotation while breaking the T7 4pc bonus. The other DK Glayve is 2H unholy.
Last edited by Laurelai : 05/20/09 at 12:37 PM.
Reason: Update
I've just setup my DK with this spec and have a few simple questions.
ArP/Crit/Haste/Expertise In which order should I be looking to gear? Right now I'm moving towards crit based gear... Thoughts?
Is ArP worth as much for Frost as it is for Blood? I'm guessing with a OB rotation yes but if so how much?
Crit isn't worth a whole lot to Frost compared to other specs since KM procs are independent of crit rating. We only get the full benefit on attacks not affected by it, basically just Oblit, BS, and autoattack.
I thought I saw a stat weights chart a few pages back, but I can't seem to find it now. Anyway, I believe ArP is now the second-best stat for Frost, obviously after Strength. Frost doesn't benefit quite as much as Blood does, but it's still much better for us than it is for Unholy. Oblit, BS, and autoattack are the only significant sources affected by ArP, but together, at least in my experience, they account for around half our DPS on single-target fights. (Ironic, considering the above comment about crit.) Of course, its value drops the fewer Oblits you use, especially in a new IT-heavy rotation.
That's how I've been viewing this setup. I do use OB, BS often so stacking crit with ArP should work well. Thanks I just needed another eye on the subject.
But what IS the fix? To know that we have to know the problem, and the problem seems to be that Blizzard has a hard time scaling Frost versus Blood and Unholy, because Frost is one type of priority (Our RP dump is far and away the best ability we have, versus our runes which are only there to power it), and Blood and Unholy are both the other type (Their Rune abilities are far and away more powerful than their RP dump(s), which are only there to fill in the gaps between rune cooldowns). It's tough to balance RP generation, especially with things like Glyph of Icy Touch and the T7 4 piece bonus around, because they give a much more powerful option: use those abilities at the expense of other abilities (that presumably they want you to still use) in order to edge out even more RP to use Frost Strike more.
So how do they make this right? Do they take away the Glyph of Icy Touch, changing it to something like "increases the damage of your Icy Touch by %"? That certainly seems like the first route they will take. But that just leaves us in a worse position than being reliant on it, because at that point we fall behind Blood and Unholy in terms of damage, unless we go with a single-disease HB rotation (which I'm not sure they like, either... they want us to use Plague Strike).
Do they nerf Frost Strike and buff Obliterate? No, I don't think that would work. Frost's "flavor" is having a really hard hitting single target, armor-ignoring strike, and that needs to stay - even if it is powered by runic power. Frost Strike had problems in beta because it wasn't fun to use as an on-next-swing ability. Eventually they built it up to be the focus of the spec, and that made it interesting.
I don't think Ghostcrawler will find that a "simple fix" will work for this one without damaging the class and making even more people spec Unholy or Blood. We may need something like a talent (possibly not even one deep in the tree, as Blood and Unholy specs have inferior RP dumps) that further increases our RP generation, maybe even artificially (Your Frost Strikes have a 33% chance to cost half their normal Runic Power)(Your Rime-procced Howling Blast now generates X runic power), in tandem with a change to the IT glyph.
I just really hope they don't nerf the IT glyph and then do nothing else, leaving us high-and-dry.
Something definitely needs to be done to fix us. The 4 pce T7 change has merely exposed how dependant we were on that extra RP. It was clearly massively overpowered, just as the IT glyph is overpowered. IT should really only be used for putting up FF. It's damage is low, and it doesn't synergise well with our main dps talents, eating up our KM procs, and using runes that could be used to Oblit, and from there proc a Rime.
I really think that the two rotations we had pre-3.1.2 were ideal for Frost DK's. The HB one in particular, had beautiful synergy between Oblit and it's high runic power generation (with 4 pce T7), and Rime, and the Howling Blast glyph.
In my opinion, any RP generation from gear or glyphs has got to go. This would leave us hugely RP starved however, so they would need to give us more RP from talents to balance us. If they added 10 RP to Obliterate from deep Frost talents, then that would make Frost DK's want to Obliterate as much as possible, which we should want to do anyway, since it's our main rune based strike! They could then balance our dps around this set amount of RP generation, and we would be free to glyph and gear without having to blindly go with anything that increases our RP gen.
I made a thread on this on the damage dealing forums, please feel free to go and post your opinions there. The discussion in there seems fairly positive, and I think we need to raise awareness with Blizz of the issues Frost is having at the moment.
I agree on most other points, but I don't see anything innately wrong about using IT as more than just a source of FF. If it feels against the "philosophy" of the tree to anyone, remember that Frost buffs IT more and cares more about Frost Fever than Unholy does for PS and Blood Plague. As for the glyph, Glyph of SS is of comparable importance to Unholy's rotation. (If SS-SS-SS-dump can even be called a rotation, nyuk nyuk.) Of course, I'd be just as happy if Blizz went ahead and made Frost a dedicated dual wield tree, so who knows.
And all those level 1s in that thread have a point, what right does a tanking tree have to be DPSing in the first place?
The problem with heavy IT rotation using DRM is pretty significant. The fact that IT's damage has been so severely nerfed since 3.1 came out that it pumps out less damage then Diseaseless Blood could do pre 3.1 makes a huge statement.
Yes the rp gen rivals that of using 4set t7/7.5 and may actually be possible as a substitute due to nerf but by far and large Frost builds will do far better with the pre 3.1 rotations for IT or HB. Thus said, if you didn't use PS in rotation your dps will increase even further as you can fit an extra OB into rotation for IT builds. PS shouldn't be used in HB builds as you blow dps even worse with it.
PS is nice for Frost as it bonuses OB (disease modifier) but that's the only affect and the damage from PS is minimal (weakest strike dk's have, even BS with the 15% damage bonus from BoTN is stronger now) and Blood Plague is minimal in comparison to an extra OB per rotation. This could change with 4set t8 but it's not really worth the dps loss to use 4set vs 2set + Ulduar or 2set t7.5 :P
That said, IT also lacks the ability to proc Rime which is a significant dps loss as well. But with the heavy IT build you could possibly do well if you're running a heavy UA usage + clicky trinket as Empower Rune Weapon + ITx6 might make a significant burst. This build also has issues with KM being eaten mistakenly by IT instead of FS. :/
PS: The heavy IT build may want to pick up Virulence unless in Ulduar as Hit Rating is a major concern due to GCD issues and the like :P (most likely dropped from Dark Conviction)
The Frost Gods smiled upon me today...I finally got the new Sigil!
I'm doing comparison tests and I'm incredibly surprised that 6xIT IS BACK! I was able to sustain 4150 DPS on the target dummy with good ol' single disease IT/FS spam. Of course Recount Acherus SS's are not the best source of information, but I thought that the results were good enough to post, especially in light of all this "IT Glyph is overpowered" talk.
Priority system, IT BS BS BT OB OB, ITx5/6 depending on how your death runes play out, sticking in FS where you get KM procs or inbetween ITs, whatever you end up liking the most. I tend to try to stick 2 FS in between each 'pair' of death runes so I can properly weave in FS on KM, just like back in the days when Rime proc'd off of IT. Unholy Presence is of course used, and HB only on Rime.
Figured I would try out Razor as ITx6 has a higher % frost damage as a whole, but I couldn't get my sustained DPS to go over 4k and I hit that easily with IT double disease crusader and 6x IT crusader.
Was curious as to how a rotation with more OBs would do...using the following rotation:
IT PS OB BS BS, OB OB IT IT, letting BP fall off to get the last tick of damage without negatively affecting your OB damage since FF always stays up. Was able to sustain 4300 for the first minute or two, then it dropped down to ~4k. OB moves from ~10% to ~20%, FS stays ~45-50%
Will have to do more testing tomorrow in a raid environment to see what gives best results, I'm kind of on the fence as to which one to choose. Single disease IT spam is probably the most fun, but I'm still thinking that double disease has some nice scaling with OB, especially with some ArP.
Will have to do more testing tomorrow in a raid environment to see what gives best results, I'm kind of on the fence as to which one to choose. Single disease IT spam is probably the most fun, but I'm still thinking that double disease has some nice scaling with OB, especially with some ArP.
We've been discussing these rotations for 2 pages now, but I guess this is the first test. I've not been posting recount shots because my infrequent visits of the Dung Heap sort of suggest that Kaubel isn't too fond of those. I'm surprised you only had 4200ish dps with the sigil, because I managed about 4100 without it. What presence are you using for this test?
As said above, I really don't see what's fun about turning one of the most interactive and complex melee classes into a single button spamm one.
Personally I don't see the double OB rotation evening out. PS will run out anyways, and you don't have the talent points to get Epidemic. 2 OB generate 40 ap, while 4 IT generate 100. There's no way you edge out 2 Frost Strikes with the dmg difference between OB and IT.
Edit:
Just to clarify further, your rotation would be:
(HoW) IT (35 RP) FS PS OB (33 RP) FS BS BS - OB (41 RP) FS OB - and here FF falls - IT etc
Now if you check it, this essentially only works if you don't have extra gcds to stick in (which you will, as you're on 29 rp over the second OB, and with Butchery you will already have rp for another FS which won't be covered by FF, then sum up moving etc).
Unless of course you're doing this in unholy presence, but if you go UH and don't aim for the maximum RP generation, it's generally a nerf to your dmg output.
I am currently playing a Frost spec, 17/51/3. ( Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft )
DPS Rotation:
PS-IT-OB-BS-BS-FS-FS
OB-OB-OB-FS-FS-FS
HB if Rime procs and only during FS spam phase.
Diseases are up until the last OB and disappears during FS spam phase on 2nd cycle of rotation.
My stats are: (Completely unbuffed)
3351 AP
265 HIT
21 EXPERTISE
33.13% CRIT
3.13 WEAPON SPEED
11.13% ARMPEN
Gear:
Head - Heroes Scourgeborne Helmet
Neck - Pendant of the Dragonsworn
Shoulders - Valorous Scourgeborne Shoulderplates
Back - Aged Winter's Cloak
Chest - Valorous Scourgeborne Battleplate
Bracer - Wristbands of the Sentinel Huntress
Weapon - Death's Bite
Sigil - Sigil of Awareness
Hand - Valorous Scourgeborne Gauntlets
Belt - Girdle of Razuvious
Leggings - Staggering Legplates
Feet - Melancholy Sabatons
Ring1 - Ruthlessness
Rung2 - Haemorrhaging Circle
Trink1 - Mirror of Truth
Trink2 - Loatheb's Shadow
Gem choices are Bold Scarlet Rubies and 2x Sovereign Twilight Opal and the +21Crit/+3%CritDMG Meta Gem.
Enchants are as follows:
Head - +50AP +20CRIT
Shoulders - +40AP +15CRIT
Back - +22AGI
Chest - +10STATS
Bracers - +50AP
Weapon - Rune of Razorice
Hand - +44AP
Leggings - +75AP +22CRIT
Feet - +12HIT +12CRIT
Alternative Gear choices:
Weapon - Ironsoul
Trinket - Fury of the Five Flights
I want to ask, is there any better specs/rotations and should I swap out any of my current gear for the alternative ones I have with me?
Questions like the above are getting pretty stupid. Erekose, you should just go ahead and create a new Frost thread as the OP of this one hasn't been back for over two months.
Originally Posted by Apate
Yeah, I'm barely OK with myself being in the room while I have sex
Just to recap what we found out many months ago regarding 6*IT:
Use BS OB IT IT IT -> IT IT IT BS OB rather than the OB OB BS BS -> IT*6 rotation. It gives you more chance to unload RP, so reduces the chance you will cap yourself mid rotation & waste RP.
Just to recap what we found out many months ago regarding 6*IT:
Use BS OB IT IT IT -> IT IT IT BS OB rather than the OB OB BS BS -> IT*6 rotation. It gives you more chance to unload RP, so reduces the chance you will cap yourself mid rotation & waste RP.
Because most people will just RP dump when runes are on cooldown (after each subset). Which causes you to sit at 150 RP + any RP left from the previous subset, which again is not possible with a 130 RP cap, causing you to effectively waste DPS. If you weave your Frost Strikes into the subsets anyway (which is the dps maximizing variant, but more complicated) there is no difference.
You should definitely replace Death's Bite with Ironsoul. Unless I'm being forgetful and they're the same iLevel, Ironsoul is a huge upgrade. One point of weapon DPS (from the tooltip) is worth several times one point of anything else, and since all our strikes are normalized there's no reason not to take the highest iLevel weapon possible. I think FotFF is also an upgrade, but I don't have exact stats on hand for which other trinket you should replace.
I don't have a citation for this either, but I remember reading that the haste enchant (Greater Speed or something) is now the best option for cloaks. Finally, I'm pretty sure Fallen Crusader is still our best runeforge, especially since you'll have a tough time getting the most out of Razorice on a lot of fights in Ulduar (Hodir, Freya, etc.)
I decided to go 17/51/3 Frost last night using the following rotation
IT>PS>BS>BS>OB
IT>PS>OBx3
What I did was use a priority order of things...
if IT < 3s, use IT
if PS <3s use PS
if Blood runes <> Death Runes, Blood Strike
If KM Proc use FS
If Rime procs use Howling Blast
I also keep in mind to stagger my Obliterates and Frost Strikes to try and catch as many KM procs as possible, anyway, here is the wws of Ignis and xt002. The one problem with XT002 is I did get light bomb so that damage is factored into the wws... I did the math and it still put me at ~6600 dps which I think is pretty good being we don't have a high powered cooldown. I was also pleased I was able to hold my own against the blood dk we had with us last night . I did use every rime proc I got and overall I saw a dps increase from doing that and really didn't run into any gcd issues. I know theoretically it would be better to use rime when you have fully dumped all your RP and have an extra global which does happen, but, I found it happened much less when I used every rime proc instead of holding them.
my gear is almost exactly the same as my armory, I have access to the bandits Insignia but I've had better results in raids with FotFF lately since most fights in Ulduar it has ~98% up time. I also replaced my shoulders last night so I was using T8 all of last night.
Overall I was glad to see that an Obliterate rotation is viable and strong since I personally don't like IT spam since, in my humble opinion, it goes against many of the core principles of the class. I was really happy with the numbers I was putting out last night and it gave me the indication that Frost is nowhere near "dead" as some posters seem to be eluding to.
I normally raid as Blood, but decided to give frost a try last night after reading some of the last few pages. I tested the spec using DRM with rotation of OBx2 BSx2 -> ITx6 running in UH presence. Overall my damage on each fight was lower than my normal for blood, but i'm willing to chuck some of that up to only having ~20 min of dummy experience with the spec before raid - I was obliterating with death runes on accident sometimes. I have to say i found playing this spec quite fun though, seems so much faster paced with UH pres coming from GCD locked blood with blood pres.
Like I said, damage was a bit lower than anticipated, but it was a joy to play. I can see a change coming to glyph of IT, but until this spec starts topping all meters I don't see it coming quickly. It probably wasn't designed to be used this way, but as someone mentioned above it really isn't a whole lot different than calling SSx3 -> SSx2 BSx2 an involved rotation that requires you to think.
Why not drop PS and run an extra OB in rotation? Especially with the loss of 4set t7 the extra rp while generating sufficient damage outweighs PS imo.
IT - Oblit - BSx2 - BT - Oblit - FS*
Using the BT directly after the BS doesn't skew with cds while allowing the Unholy + Death rune for OB while not ruining latter part of rotation.
The problem with PS is it's the weakest strikes and it gets nothing out of talents except for Black Ice, Tundra Stalker and the universal talents whereas OB feeds off Subversion, Rime and etc. The extra OB can also help with Rime procs/rp generation.
For the Rime proc don't hold off unless you're fully rp capped at 130. The issue with that being that you can't use OB until Rime is used, it only generates 5 rp (Chill of the Grave) as clearcasting abilities do not generate any sort of energy, rp, rage or the like by themselves.
05/19/09, 10:31 AM
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