Freezing Hell Over, One Step at a Time (Frost DPS) - Page 49

GBF · 04/21/09, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Cabal

Is it just me, or is everyone completing ignoring Kahorie´s simulator? Please respect the work she has put into this awesome tool, and use it, instead of running absolutely pointless "wow I hit the dummy for a bit" "tests".

Just ran a couple of quick tests with it, and fallen crusader is consistently on top (although not by much).

I was also amazed to see that sigil of vengeful heart is an upgrade of 100+ dps, which is amazing for a single piece of gear.

So you're saying a simulator predicts results better than the actual game? I know simulators are fun and allow you to try out different things without say, using the time to actually test them (on say, a test dummy!), or wasting the gold for respecs that might not be a good final choice of talents, but they're just as imperfect as dummy testing, and certainly not as reliable (especially as the number of dummy tests goes up, making the RNG a non-factor).

Belladonnah · 04/21/09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by GBF

Belladonnah, were you using Sigil of Awareness or Sigil of the Vengeful Heart?

Awareness, havent got my hands on the other yet. But my guess is that it would influence even more my results for cinderglacier?

Snootzi · 04/21/09, 11:35 AM

Allways wanted to know this but was never sure 2h weapon damage increase by 4%, is that just melee auto hits or does it include stuff like scourge strike or heart strike for example.

Feyda · 04/21/09, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Belladonnah

Awareness, havent got my hands on the other yet. But my guess is that it would influence even more my results for cinderglacier?

I've found that Cingerglacier procs vary wildly. I've done 10 minute parses where I get 1-2PPM and the next parse is 6-7PPM. I don't know why the procs vary so greatly compared to Killing Machines (which seems to have fairly evenly spaced procs).

In my limited testing, Cinderglacier could produce some huge numbers if a) I got lucky and had a decent proc rate and b) I got lucky with crits. I was pulling 4750dps during one parse on an non-debuffed dummy because I got a string of Cingerglacier procs and FS crits. The next parse I had a sub-2PPM proc rate on Cindeglacier and was pushing about 3800dps.

Zimbambadu · 04/21/09, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by GBF

So you're saying a simulator predicts results better than the actual game? I know simulators are fun and allow you to try out different things without say, using the time to actually test them (on say, a test dummy!), or wasting the gold for respecs that might not be a good final choice of talents, but they're just as imperfect as dummy testing, and certainly not as reliable (especially as the number of dummy tests goes up, making the RNG a non-factor).

RNG is always a factor in any boss fight. Just keep that in mind.

salviastria · 04/21/09, 12:04 PM

Recurring things that I see in here that make absolutely no sense to me at all:

1) Why do I see so many people in-game and on here with 1/5 dark conviction instead of 1/3 ravenous dead. Str > crit for frost by a longshot imo.

2) Does anyone know on average in dps gear how much 1 point in Bladed Armor is worth in comparison to 1 point in ravenous dead? Servers are down at the moment and my calculations done off armory char sheet are almost certainly horribly wrong. My base assumption would be that as your gear gets better ravenous dead gets better?

3) After seeing all Ulduar fights w/ the exceptions of Algalol General and Yogg I see a marked advantage to using rotations that can be managed in Unholy Presence. As the Blues have said, there are no patchwerk tank and spank encounters that we can engorge our E-peens on with BP and standing still. There are a few fights in which as dps I would consider using blood presence if my rotation worked with it but for most the time on target and frontloading of UP is an advantage imo. Especially as frost with 4 piece t7 I have so much RP that if I go to BP I'm constantly losing a war against my RP bar, and I don't have any leeway in order to prioritize KM procs to FS.

4) Like I said earlier in my post, all of my tests both on dummys and on Ulduar bosses have been higher dps with crusader Every.Single.Time. It's new PPM/uptime, healing (every little bit counts in Ulduar), and scaling (it affects every move you make instead of razor or cinders partial buffing) makes it far and away the best enchant in my opinion with little room for discussion at the current time.

Feyda · 04/21/09, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by GBF

So you're saying a simulator predicts results better than the actual game? I know simulators are fun and allow you to try out different things without say, using the time to actually test them (on say, a test dummy!), or wasting the gold for respecs that might not be a good final choice of talents, but they're just as imperfect as dummy testing, and certainly not as reliable (especially as the number of dummy tests goes up, making the RNG a non-factor).

Dummy tests are relatively worthless for determining the differences between specs (or more specifically, different trees) because they fail to take into consideration how different specs scale with raid buffs and debuffs. When you're boss DPS is increasing by nearly 100% due to buffs/debuffs compared to dummy DPS, those scaling factors make drawing conclusions about boss DPS from dummy DPS a silly exercise.

On the other hand, simulators have their own set of issues. I tried the DK simulator mentioned and its calculations for the Sigil of the Vengeful Heart were WAY off. The more complex the simulator, the more likely it is to have math and coding errors that will make its numbers unreliable. I'm especially dubious of DK simulators in particular because of the complexity and variety of our rotations. It is extremely difficult to validate the numbers that these simulators are producing. As someone that does scientific modeling all day, a simulation without validation isn't something you want to make decisions based upon.

Feyda · 04/21/09, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by salviastria

Recurring things that I see in here that make absolutely no sense to me at all:

1) Why do I see so many people in-game and on here with 1/5 dark conviction instead of 1/3 ravenous dead. Str > crit for frost by a longshot imo.

2) Does anyone know on average in dps gear how much 1 point in Bladed Armor is worth in comparison to 1 point in ravenous dead? Servers are down at the moment and my calculations done off armory char sheet are almost certainly horribly wrong. My base assumption would be that as your gear gets better ravenous dead gets better?

Bladed Armor is about ~90-100AP/point, Ravenous Dead is ~40-50AP/point, and Toughness is ~15AP/point (/w Bladed Armor)

Bladed Armor also gets you a nice 100AP for 2 minutes from Indestructible Potions.

3) After seeing all Ulduar fights w/ the exceptions of Algalol General and Yogg I see a marked advantage to using rotations that can be managed in Unholy Presence. As the Blues have said, there are no patchwerk tank and spank encounters that we can engorge our E-peens on with BP and standing still. There are a few fights in which as dps I would consider using blood presence if my rotation worked with it but for most the time on target and frontloading of UP is an advantage imo. Especially as frost with 4 piece t7 I have so much RP that if I go to BP I'm constantly losing a war against my RP bar, and I don't have any leeway in order to prioritize KM procs to FS.

I've found that rotations are much easier to manage in BP since I have exactly 7 GCDs per rotation (using IT/OB/BS/OB/FS/FS/FS). This lets me macro a castsequence and never have to a) look at rune cooldowns, b) look at procs, or c) hit more than 3 buttons to DPS. The rotation never fails (e.g. no blood runing coming up weird or anything like that) and it is easy to restart when switching targets.

On a fight like Mimiron, I really like not having to worry about any of that.

salviastria · 04/21/09, 12:55 PM

Feyda,

Thanks for the data on BA and RD....I'll have to verify once that game comes up, but I'll probably be adjusting to 5/5 bladed armor and 1/3 ravenous dead. Interesting about the Indestructible Potion...

However though, I must say that using a cast-sequence macro for DPS as a DK, especially as frost, is imo extremely lazy and un-efficient. You don't utilize Rime procs, you don't use a second disease, you don't prioritize FS to KM procs at all like you said, and you don't have any form of +movement speed (no enchant on boots, no UP).

It's funny you should mention Mimiron because that fight requires you to be moving as fast as possible and in BP you're quite slow in comparison. Not hitting more than 3 buttons to dps, to me, seems like you're just trying for a super easy rotation/way to dps, not the most damaging way to dps.

Looking at Rune cooldowns, procs, and adjusting according to your situation is one of the hallmarks of a good DK.

Tetriste · 04/21/09, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by salviastria

Recurring things that I see in here that make absolutely no sense to me at all:

1) Why do I see so many people in-game and on here with 1/5 dark conviction instead of 1/3 ravenous dead. Str > crit for frost by a longshot imo.

2) Does anyone know on average in dps gear how much 1 point in Bladed Armor is worth in comparison to 1 point in ravenous dead? Servers are down at the moment and my calculations done off armory char sheet are almost certainly horribly wrong. My base assumption would be that as your gear gets better ravenous dead gets better?

3) After seeing all Ulduar fights w/ the exceptions of Algalol General and Yogg I see a marked advantage to using rotations that can be managed in Unholy Presence. As the Blues have said, there are no patchwerk tank and spank encounters that we can engorge our E-peens on with BP and standing still. There are a few fights in which as dps I would consider using blood presence if my rotation worked with it but for most the time on target and frontloading of UP is an advantage imo. Especially as frost with 4 piece t7 I have so much RP that if I go to BP I'm constantly losing a war against my RP bar, and I don't have any leeway in order to prioritize KM procs to FS.

4) Like I said earlier in my post, all of my tests both on dummys and on Ulduar bosses have been higher dps with crusader Every.Single.Time. It's new PPM/uptime, healing (every little bit counts in Ulduar), and scaling (it affects every move you make instead of razor or cinders partial buffing) makes it far and away the best enchant in my opinion with little room for discussion at the current time.

1% strength ~ 11 strength, so 22 ap. 1% crit ~ 45.91 crit rating. Go by feeling...

Okay more seriously, 1% crit ~ 1% dmg increase. 1% str is about 11 strength, so 22 ap.

I don't know what are the exact maths, but I'm quite confident 1 ap does not equal 1 dps, it's actually less than that, else I'd do 6k dps in raids on everything. so 22 ap is less than 22 dps. 1% crit is actually more than 1% dmg increase, because of the talents that boost crit dmg and the gem too. And 1% dmg increase is more than 22 dps, unless you stand in greens and blues. I know, my maths aren't sharp on the subject, but it can at least tell that 1% crit > 1% str.

1 point in bladed armor is 1 ap per 180 armor. You usually stand in 14k armor. 14k/180 ~ 78 ap, which is a lot actually. It's more than ravenous dead. The only real interest in ravenous dead is that it boost your pet, and it has the side bonus of boosting your strength.

As for your unholy presence remark, there's a lot of testing needed, but the general idea is that you attack 15% faster, but you lose 15% dmg. Attacking faster can only beat the 15%dmg if there's a "proc on attack" talent that deals a lot of damage. Before, unholy wasn't even worth mentionning because it doesn't accelerate rune cooldowns. Now it's just more close to the 15% dmg. In frost, there's quite a lot of things that can proc, but I maintain that the right rotation hasn't been found yet for blood presence. I suggested earlier that blood strikes shouldn't be used in blood presence unless you have time to waste (all runes on CD and runic power at 0), which, as you noticed, doesn't happen often. That's all supposition though.

I'll have to agree that the 15% movement increase is nice for fights where you have to move, but can't you make the switch? I mean you don't have to stay in blood presence all the time, when you gotta run, just change of presence and run. That's what I did on Sapphiron, I was remaining near him to deal more dmg when he was flying, and after a time, I switched to unholy presence and ran, to make it just on time for the deep breath.

For the enchants, well that's also an interesting topic. I tested on dummies, and razor was doing more damage. However dummies don't move, and perhaps I did a few things wrong, which is why I'm gonna test it again tonight, and perhaps I'll switch to crusaders just because it's a self buff instead of a debuff applied. Cinderglacier was just behind those two enchants during my testing, but I'll also give it one more try tonight and see for myself.

Allways wanted to know this but was never sure 2h weapon damage increase by 4%, is that just melee auto hits or does it include stuff like scourge strike or heart strike for example.

needs testing, but Blizzard usually specifies "auto attack" when it's only auto attack. Take Necrosis for exemple, it says auto attacks deals 20% more dmg in shadow dmg. So I'd tend to say it's 4% of every attacks that uses your 2h weapon (excludes spells like howling blast, death and decay, death coil, etc.)

Najani · 04/21/09, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Zimbambadu

I still use the HB BS BS OB -> FS // OB OB OB -> FS

In a fight where you don't have to move, UP will have crazy down time. BP wins out in low mobility fights. On burst / running fights UP wins out because you pack the whole rotation in as fast as possible and move on.

BP also wins when doing AoE. Also, it's pretty much impossible to fit a ERW into your rotation efficiently when you're trying to max out your FS DPS, since thats where most of my damage comes from.

EDIT: I take hungering cold as well, it comes in handy on tons of trash / boss adds, even if it's only to spread FF. HC -> deathchill -> HB -> $$$

Here's a WWS of the only fight I've been able to DPS in Ulduar (normally main tank). My dps set isn't terribad (5pc t7.5, deadly glad sword w/razorice, varoius 25m badge pieces), but most are either gemmed for pvp (bunch of spell pen), or unenchanted. Hodir isn't great for comparisons, but regardless I was kind of amazed to see myself 2nd in a pack of best in slot naxx ppl.

WWS here.

All I can say I that I love the HB glyph. The simplified rotations and absurd threat and great mitigation (from my similar 12/51/8 tank spec) ensure that I'll never go back to unholy/blood. The insane crit rates are fun too.

Tetriste · 04/21/09, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Najani

Here's a WWS of the only fight I've been able to DPS in Ulduar (normally main tank). My dps set isn't terribad (5pc t7.5, deadly glad sword w/razorice, varoius 25m badge pieces), but most are either gemmed for pvp (bunch of spell pen), or unenchanted. Hodir isn't great for comparisons, but regardless I was kind of amazed to see myself 2nd in a pack of best in slot naxx ppl.

WWS here.

All I can say I that I love the HB glyph. The simplified rotations and absurd threat and great mitigation (from my similar 12/51/8 tank spec) ensure that I'll never go back to unholy/blood. The insane crit rates are fun too.

Which brings a question, does Hodir have frost resistance? Cause it can pretty much lower our dps by a lot if he does. Would also explains why it wasn't really bad for Najani to use spell penetration on him

salviastria · 04/21/09, 1:15 PM

At this point in the discussion, I think it safe to say that the majority of the people reading this thread are interested in maximizing DPS for *ulduar* as frost.

My logic is as follows:

more time on target = more dps on the target
ulduar fights = lots of movement, lots of 'boss is only available for x seconds' encounters

Now, to be fair a large chunk of my involvement in ulduar has been from a tank perspective, but I'm rarely sitting still and able to enjoy the benefits of blood presence If i were in it.

And Tetrise I completely disagree with you in that the attacking faster can only trump 15% dmg if theres a 'proc-on-attack' like KM. For my purposes the 15% auto-attack speed is nice, but it could be gone and I'd still use UP (for frost with 4pt7.5 anyways) mainly because of the 15% movement speed but the 1 sec GCD is amazing for throwing a lot of frost strikes. There are times when I will sit at 80-90 RP while my runes refresh and not do anything (except for moving around) because I have the luxury of an extra 2-3 GCDs in my rotation in which to wait on KM to proc for FS, summon a ghoul, blow horn of winter, whatever I feel is the best for the situation.

With blood presence, you have absolutely no leeway at all in your rotation; its super tight and discourages adjusting your rotation on the fly (the #1 reason I like frost dps; an unstable, evolving priority system based on what procs are up). With UP you can have something go unexpectedly or wrong and still make up for it; it lends itself very nicely to ulduar which rewards intelligent use of cooldowns and movement.

Also, the whole switching on the fly from UP to BP is nice in theory but in practice it just mucks up your rune rotation and owns your damage.

salviastria · 04/21/09, 1:17 PM

Also, I'm no math whiz so maybe my logic is borked here, but if your attacks are already running a significantly high crit rating (for instance, in the WWS that Nivani posted he's running 67% crit and 76% crit on his FS/OB respectively) on your most damaging attacks due to KM/Subversion+Rime, wouldn't making those attacks hit harder (via ravenous dead's str) be better than increasing their crit %?

Feyda · 04/21/09, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by salviastria

Feyda,

Thanks for the data on BA and RD....I'll have to verify once that game comes up, but I'll probably be adjusting to 5/5 bladed armor and 1/3 ravenous dead. Interesting about the Indestructible Potion...

However though, I must say that using a cast-sequence macro for DPS as a DK, especially as frost, is imo extremely lazy and un-efficient. You don't utilize Rime procs, you don't use a second disease, you don't prioritize FS to KM procs at all like you said, and you don't have any form of +movement speed (no enchant on boots, no UP).

It's funny you should mention Mimiron because that fight requires you to be moving as fast as possible and in BP you're quite slow in comparison. Not hitting more than 3 buttons to dps, to me, seems like you're just trying for a super easy rotation/way to dps, not the most damaging way to dps.

Looking at Rune cooldowns, procs, and adjusting according to your situation is one of the hallmarks of a good DK.

Because Rimed HBs produce no RP and are one of my least damaging abilities. Using a second disease costs me 4% crit (to get Epidemic), half of a FS every 2 rotations, all to buff 20% of my DPS by 12.5% and gain a DoT that does maybe 3-4% extra damage. At the expense of making my rotation either inefficient and clumsy (if you alternate IT and PS on each half of the rotation) or back-loaded (if you start with IT/PS/BS/BS).

With almost half of my strikes being Frost Strikes, trying to prioritize KM procs to FS doesn't gain me much over just letting luck take care of it. There is only one point in the rotation in which there is more than one strikes between two consecutive Frost Strikes.

But yes, I constantly strive to have the easiest rotation possible. One could say that I prioritize simple rotations because they work all the time, every time. They work without constant mental gymnastics and let one focus on the fight and not dying. That is worth more to me than a few percent theoretical DPS increase (if there even is one).

Why make things vastly more difficult for yourself for a minimal and potentially non-existent gain?

As far as Mimiron goes, I haven't had any issues with movement in the fight.

I've also been the top DPS on every kill so far, so I think I'm holding my own as far as my DPS role. Not trying to toot my own horn, just saying that I think the current obsession with integrating Plague Strike and using UP is a bit silly. The benefits are vastly overblown.