Ability Formulas

Sympa · 03/22/09, 11:55 PM

Small Preface
Please keep questions unrelated out of this thread. EG no, 'what spec is better' or 'help me choose between a and b'. This thread is about mapping mechanics.

Browsing over the DK Stat Weights: A Derivation (Now with more spreadsheets!) thread got me thinking. We should have a list somewhere statically of how the damage of each of our abilities are comprised. Had we the formulas for each ability we could technically map out death knight dps as a few of the spreadsheets that have been released have attempted to do.

The way death knight's work as a damaging class is fairly simple to map out. Each spec relies for the most part on a set rotation through a 20 second period, rinse and repeat. EG a common frost/unholy dw rot. would be something along the lines of:

plague strike • icy touch • howling blast • blood strike • blood strike • <dump>
plague strike • icy touch • howling blast • icy touch • icy touch • <dump>

All you would need are the formulas behind each ability and then add them up over a 20 second time table. Repeat ad infinity. You could even factor in damage modifiers / haste effects. Take for example blood lust/heroism effect on white damage: 30% haste for 40 seconds. Define a length of time for the fight to last (could even leave this as a variable for the user to set)

buff ( durationOfeffect / durationOffight ) = average buff effect through ought the fight.

Would be more difficult to model effects of proc events like Dark Moon card: Greatness and Fallen Crusader but at least it will give us a more accurate approach to mapping death knight dps.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________

Stats for in practise values

Damage: 574 - 740
Speed: 1.42
Power 3348
Hit Rating: 356
Crit Chance: 19.49%

Key

b = Base Damage
AP = Current Attack Power
k = Attack Power Coefficient
c = Current  Critical Chance (in percent)
m = Critical Damage Bonus (1, w/o CSD and talents)
d = Damage Done
mod= %modifier
DPS = Base Weapon DPS
 = Normalization Constant (3.3 for 2H, 2.4 for 1H)
z = Hit Percent/Expertise
w = Stat weight for an individual attack
p = Percent of total damage for an individual attack
W = Overall Stat weight

Icy Touch

Formula
(208 refers to sigil)

$(b + AP \cdot k)(1 + c \cdot m)\cdot mod +(208\cdot mod) = d$

In Practise
First average the base damage of icy touch. (227+245)/2=236. Includes Impurity (25%ap to spells), Rime (15% crit) and use Killing machine to round off crit to 50%. Also includes Chaotic Skyflare Diamond (3% crit damage modifier but because of the way spell crit works lets call it 6% untill further testing). Then add multipliers. Thanks to Kroot for helping with the sigil damage for Icy touch. Damage modifiers are applied if they are global but do not specificy the spell, eg ignoring glacier rot & improved icy touch but include bone shield, desecration, black ice etc.

$((236)+(3348 \cdot .125))(1+.5 \cdot 1.06) \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.1 \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.05 \cdot 1.02 + ( 208 \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.05 \cdot 1.02 ) = 2283.34492$

Frost Fever

Formula

$mod \cdot (b + (AP\cdot mod \cdot k))=d$

In practise
1.15 for blood pres, 1.3 for black ice, 1.25 for impurity

$1.15 \cdot 1.3 \cdot (25.6+ ((3348\cdot 1.25)\cdot.055))=382.38$

Foxx2405 · 03/23/09, 6:04 AM

As far as i can see there are numerous flaws in your math. It's early in the morning though so maybe I'm not thinking straight yet.

I'm talking about calculating the IT damage here:

1. When you added impurity you multiply by: ".1.25" that just has to be ".125". No need for an extra dot

2. Chaotic Skyflare Diamond adds 3% crit damage, not 30%.
Now am unsure how how much that makes the modifier, because in TBC this same bonus used to add 9% damage for casters, but I'm not sure if death knights spells follow the trend. Assuming it does:

Using the following calculation:
Normal spell crits for 150%. Runic Focus doubles the bonus.

150% * 1.03 = 154.5%
154.5% - 100% = 54.5% (this is the crit BONUS damage)
54.5% * 2 = 109% (runic focus doubles the bonus damage)
100% + 109% = 209% (total damage on a crit)

So if the meta works this way for us as well it should add 9% damage on a crit. If it doesn't then most likely it adds 6% (200% * 1.03 = 206%).

3. Your multipliers in the last step are added together.
As far as i know the multipliers stack multiplicatively.
(Using your wrong numbers but putting them in the right calculation):

1079.925 * 1.3 * 1.3 * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.05 = 2150.118796

(If you wanna do it nicely you could expand each modifier to: ( 1 + 0.x ), but for correction sake i just put it this way.)

Sympa · 03/23/09, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

As far as i can see there are numerous flaws in your math. It's early in the morning though so maybe I'm not thinking straight yet.

I'm talking about calculating the IT damage here:

1. When you added impurity you multiply by: ".1.25" that just has to be ".125". No need for an extra dot

2. Chaotic Skyflare Diamond adds 3% crit damage, not 30%.
Now am unsure how how much that makes the modifier, because in TBC this same bonus used to add 9% damage for casters, but I'm not sure if death knights spells follow the trend. Assuming it does:

Using the following calculation:
Normal spell crits for 150%. Runic Focus doubles the bonus.

150% * 1.03 = 154.5%
154.5% - 100% = 54.5% (this is the crit BONUS damage)
54.5% * 2 = 109% (runic focus doubles the bonus damage)
100% + 109% = 209% (total damage on a crit)

So if the meta works this way for us as well it should add 9% damage on a crit. If it doesn't then most likely it adds 6% (200% * 1.03 = 206%).

3. Your multipliers in the last step are added together.
As far as i know the multipliers stack multiplicatively.
(Using your wrong numbers but putting them in the right calculation):

1079.925 * 1.3 * 1.3 * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.05 = 2150.118796

(If you wanna do it nicely you could expand each modifier to: ( 1 + 0.x ), but for correction sake i just put it this way.)

My apologies, bit tired here as well. Will edit to correct the math. This is exactly what I am looking for though - to make the information more available per ability.

Now to do some more math on the issues of sigils . It can be added one of three places, which is correct I have no idea. Icy touch sigil adds 208 damage.

One place is to the base damage.
$((236)+(3348\cdot.125))(1+.5\cdot1.06)\cdot1.3\cdot1.3\cdot1.1\cdot1.05\cdot1.02=2612 .1277$

Another is after initial damage but before percentage modifiers.
$[((236)+(3348\cdot.125))(1+.5\cdot1.06)+208]\cdot1.3\cdot1.3\cdot1.1\cdot1.05\cdot1.02=2407.87223$

And the last to add the damage after the percentage modifiers.
$((236)+(3348\cdot.125))(1+.5\cdot1.06)\cdot1.3\cdot1.3\cdot1.1\cdot1.05\cdot1.02+208= 2201.74652$

Will be testing this in game tomorrow.

Afabar · 03/23/09, 6:57 AM

A little note : Annihilation is only for melee special abilities.

Sympa · 03/23/09, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Afabar

A little note : Annihilation is only for melee special abilities.

Mislabeled killing machine as annihilation.

♦ Darkside · 03/23/09, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sympa

Bdditionally where is damage from sigils added, to the base modifier or after the initial damage calculation but before the percentage modifiers?

Sigils are interesting. They are not (at least the IT sigil is not) affected by any talents that would affect only that spell, but are affected by talents that affect overall damage.

In the case of Icy Touch, this means that the damage from the sigil is NOT affected by Glacier Rot and Improved Icy Touch, but does get a bonus from Desecration, Bone Shield, Black Ice etc. etc.

Some testing would be required to see if this holds true for all the sigils (I would assume that it does).

Sympa · 03/23/09, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Darkside

Sigils are interesting. They are not (at least the IT sigil is not) affected by any talents that would affect only that spell, but are affected by talents that affect overall damage.

In the case of Icy Touch, this means that the damage from the sigil is NOT affected by Glacier Rot and Improved Icy Touch, but does get a bonus from Desecration, Bone Shield, Black Ice etc. etc.

Some testing would be required to see if this holds true for all the sigils (I would assume that it does).

This is very interesting. So the math would become:
$((236)+(3348 \cdot .125))(1+.5 \cdot 1.06) \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.1 \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.05 \cdot 1.02 + ( 208 \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.05 \cdot 1.02 ) = 2283.34492$

Would the same hold true considering blood presence as well?
$((236)+(3348 \cdot .125))(1+.5 \cdot 1.06) \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.1 \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.05 \cdot 1.02 \cdot 1.15 + ( 208 \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.05 \cdot 1.02 \cdot1.15 ) = 2625.8466$

Will edit the original post to reflect the confirmed sigil data.

Next question How is the damage from frost fever calculated before we move on the the rest of dk abilities.

Althir · 03/24/09, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by Sympa

Next question How is the damage from frost fever calculated before we move on the the rest of dk abilities.

I did some 0 gear 0 talent point testing on live using a level 75 dummy, then took some numbers with all of the possible frost talents available: Imp Icy Touch, Glacier Rot, Black Ice, and Tundra Stalker.

Base damage for Frost Fever is 25.6 + (AP * 0.055). With 570 AP, this came out to 56.95. Checking on a level 75 dummy, this was confirmed with 57 damage per tick. For the sake of consistent data in preparation for Tundra Stalker, I also checked the damage when the FF was applied to a target already debuffed with FF, again yielding 57 damage per tick.

Next, I took 3/3 IIT and repeated the test both on an un-debuffed mob and applying FF over my own FF. Both cases yielded 57 damage per tick. IIT has no affect on FF.

Next, I took 2/2 Glacier Rot. Again, in both cases, 57 damage per tick. GR has no affect on FF.

5/5 Black Ice came next. Black Ice increased the damage per tick to 74:

57*1.3 = 74.1 - no surprises there.

Tundra Stalker was last on the list. When the mob was clean, the damage per tick remained at 74. However, when FF was applied to a mob that was already debuffed with (my own) FF, the damage increased to 81-82.

74 * 1.1 = 81.5

So, it looks like Frost Fever doesn't "see" itself for purposes of triggering Tundra Stalker. The debuff must be present at the time IT is cast for TS to be present.

Questions:
Does Impurity matter? (I'd guess yes, but I'll leave that for another session)
Does Rage of Rivendare work the same way that Tundra Stalker does? (Again, yes seems like the right answer here)
How difficult will it be to model average DoT damage considering the abnormal behavior of Tundra Stalker?
If the SS glyph procs these diseases, do the new diseases "see" talents like TS and RoR for damage calcalation?

It looks like most of these can be tested by a methodical trip up the unholy tree, if anybody wants to take a crack at it.

Amroo · 03/24/09, 8:15 AM

Originally Posted by Althir

If the SS glyph procs these diseases, do the new diseases "see" talents like TS and RoR for damage calcalation?

From theory this should be the case. SS Glyph reads "Your Scourge Strike has a 25% chance to cause Blood Plague and Frost Fever." "To cause" meaning that the diseases are actually newly applied. On the contrary we have for example the priest talent Pain and Suffering, which is worded "Your Mind Flay has a 100% chance to refresh the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain on the target..." and we know that it takes the values from the initial SW:P for the refreshed ticks. So, assuming the wording is reliable, if you apply diseases per PS-IT and your SS glyph procs later on, FF (which already did, since you applied BP first) and now BP, as well, should benefit from RoR.

concept84 · 03/24/09, 7:02 PM

It is my understanding that as long as the disease exists on the target talents like TS and RoR will get triggered.

Sympa · 03/24/09, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Althir

I did some 0 gear 0 talent point testing on live using a level 75 dummy, then took some numbers with all of the possible frost talents available: Imp Icy Touch, Glacier Rot, Black Ice, and Tundra Stalker.

Base damage for Frost Fever is 25.6 + (AP * 0.055). With 570 AP, this came out to 56.95. Checking on a level 75 dummy, this was confirmed with 57 damage per tick. For the sake of consistent data in preparation for Tundra Stalker, I also checked the damage when the FF was applied to a target already debuffed with FF, again yielding 57 damage per tick.

Next, I took 3/3 IIT and repeated the test both on an un-debuffed mob and applying FF over my own FF. Both cases yielded 57 damage per tick. IIT has no affect on FF.

Next, I took 2/2 Glacier Rot. Again, in both cases, 57 damage per tick. GR has no affect on FF.

5/5 Black Ice came next. Black Ice increased the damage per tick to 74:

57*1.3 = 74.1 - no surprises there.

Tundra Stalker was last on the list. When the mob was clean, the damage per tick remained at 74. However, when FF was applied to a mob that was already debuffed with (my own) FF, the damage increased to 81-82.

74 * 1.1 = 81.5

So, it looks like Frost Fever doesn't "see" itself for purposes of triggering Tundra Stalker. The debuff must be present at the time IT is cast for TS to be present.

Questions:
Does Impurity matter? (I'd guess yes, but I'll leave that for another session)
Does Rage of Rivendare work the same way that Tundra Stalker does? (Again, yes seems like the right answer here)
How difficult will it be to model average DoT damage considering the abnormal behavior of Tundra Stalker?
If the SS glyph procs these diseases, do the new diseases "see" talents like TS and RoR for damage calcalation?

It looks like most of these can be tested by a methodical trip up the unholy tree, if anybody wants to take a crack at it.

As far as tundra stalker is concerned I think the best we can do is calculate the damage including its effect and then factor it in later while setting up a rotation.

This is what we have so far. .055 is currently the AP Coefficient also defined in the key as k. and 25.6 is the base damage for frost fever. d is defined as damage done. I'll continue with the current example AP of 3348 for reference.

$(b + (AP\cdot k))=d$

$(25.6+ (3348\cdot.055))=209.74$

Now lets add in black ice just like the afore mentioned post.

$1.3 \cdot (25.6+ (3348\cdot.055))=272.662$

Impurity has to matter because going to a training dummy right now my Frost Fever is ticking for 382 (as 33/38 spec). SO now the question becomes how to add it in. Impurity - Spell - World of Warcraft

Spells Receive an additional 25% of your AP. I can see a few ways of doing this.

Lets try adding it in logically by multiplying the current ap value by 1.25 eg 25%.

$1.3 \cdot (25.6+ ((3348\cdot 1.25)\cdot.055))=332.507$

Clearly not the same figure as on live. Now lets try adding .25 to the AP coefficient.

$1.3 \cdot (25.6+ (3348\cdot(.055+.25)))=1360$

Again clearly wrong. At this point I'm really at a loss for how to add the damage in.

EDIT:Alright, re-approched the problem with two different methods. For the first I assumed the AP coeff. was wrong. X is the undefined number for both problems. I set d = 382 because that is the number I know is correct as the end damage for frost fever at 3348 AP and black ice + impurity.

Assuming the base AP Coeff is incorrect.

$1.3 \cdot (25.6+ ((3348\cdot 1.25)\cdot x))=382$

$1.3 \cdot (25.6+ 4185x))=382$

$33.28+5440x=382$

$x=\frac{382-33.28} {5440}$

$x=.06410$

Assuming the AP Coeff from impurity is incorrect.

$1.3 \cdot (25.6+ ((3348\cdot x)\cdot.055))=382$

$1.3 \cdot (25.6+ 184.14x)=382$

$33.28+239.382x=382$

$x=\frac{382-33.28}{239.382}$

$x=1.45673$

Of course both formulas are based on the idea that AP is being modified directly by impurity which may not be the case.

Amroo · 03/25/09, 12:36 AM

I'm doing some testing myself right now (will add in the results later on), but just on a hunch - are you in blood or unholy presence? Because 1.15 * 332.5075 equals exactly 382.something...

EDIT

3219 AP, unequipped Greatness DMC for chance of freak proc, all tests in UP

Untalented:

Expected value: 25.6 + (3219 * 0.055) = 202.645 = d
Observed value: 203

With only Black Ice:

Expected value: 1.3 * d = 263.439
Observed value: 263-264

With BI and Impurity - no talents, that increase strength taken on way to Impurity:

Expected value: 1.3 (25.6 + (3219 * 0.055 * 1.25)) = 320.978
Observed value: 321

Fits, so I'd assume it's just blood presence that made the difference in your case.

Going onwards: With BI, Impurity and Tundra Stalker (Rank 1)

Expected value: 1.02 * 1.3 (25.6 + (3219 * 0.055 * 1.25)) = 327.398
But only if applied and FF has already been on the mob.

Observed value:
Applying once: 321
Applying twice: 327-328

Also works as suspected.

Sympa · 03/25/09, 1:17 AM

Ah that'd be it completely forgot blood. Epic win
mod being defined as any percentage modifier.

Revised:
$mod \cdot (b + (AP\cdot mod \cdot k))=d$

$1.15 \cdot 1.3 \cdot (25.6+ ((3348\cdot 1.25)\cdot.055))=382.38$

I will be forming a list of how damage is calculated for each spell in the first post. Reposting the original calculations for IT in this post.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To start off the math lets begin with the damage formula given for an instant spell like icy touch in the DK Stat Weights: A Derivation (Now with more spreadsheets!) thread posted by kroot.

Key

b = Base Damage
AP = Current Attack Power
k = Attack Power Coefficient
c = Current  Critical Chance (in percent)
m = Critical Damage Bonus (1, w/o CSD and talents)
d = Damage Done
mod= %modifier
DPS = Base Weapon DPS
 = Normalization Constant (3.3 for 2H, 2.4 for 1H)
z = Hit Percent/Expertise
w = Stat weight for an individual attack
p = Percent of total damage for an individual attack
W = Overall Stat weight

I will use my own stats to plug in to this formula. I will not include bone shield or any other modifiers for this initial formula and we will assume 0/0/0 for the spec.

Damage: 574 - 740
Speed: 1.42
Power 3348
Hit Rating: 356
Crit Chance: 19.49%

The formula given for icy touch is:

$(b + AP \cdot k)(1 + c \cdot m) = d$

Now lets plug in the numbers:

Icy Touch - Spell - World of Warcraft

First lets average base damage.

$(227+245)/2 = 236$

Now for the rest.

$(236+(3348\cdot.1))(1+.1949\cdot1)=682.048$

Now start adding in talents like impurity (25%ap to spells)

$(236+(3348\cdot.125))(1+.1949\cdot1)=782.062$

Rime 15% crit and lets use Killing Machine to round it off to 50% crit total for Icy touch

$(236+(3348\cdot.125))(1+.5\cdot1)=981.75$

Add in Chaotic Skyflare Diamond (3% crit damage modifier but because of the way spell crit works lets call it 6% untill further
testing refer to the second post)

$(236+(3348\cdot.125))(1+.5\cdot1.06)=1001.385$

Multiply this number by the % damage increases. 30% improved icy touch, 30% black ice, 10% glacier rot, 5% desecration, 2% bone shield

$1001.385\cdot1.3\cdot1.3\cdot1.1\cdot1.02\cdot1.05 = 1993.74652$

Thanks to Kroot for helping with the sigil damage for Icy touch. Damage modifiers are applied if they are global but do not specificy the spell, eg ignoring glacier rot & improved icy touch but include bone shield, desecration, black ice etc.

$((236)+(3348 \cdot .125))(1+.5 \cdot 1.06) \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.1 \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.05 \cdot 1.02 + ( 208 \cdot 1.3 \cdot 1.05 \cdot 1.02 ) = 2283.34492$

Althir · 03/25/09, 1:35 AM

Nevermind, 30 minutes behind.

Sympa · 03/25/09, 2:09 AM

Next up is plague strike. Will be working on this tomorrow (may just edit this post to include values). Would appreciate any information folks already have on plague strike / blood plague.

♦ Darkside · 03/25/09, 2:18 AM

Bleh, if I had access to mathtype, this would be a lot easier. It's the same basic idea as the IT formula, but with a few notable differences:

1) It's normalized.
2) It's affected by armor.
3) It can be dodged as well as missed.

Normalization just means that when calculating the bonus it gets from AP, you sub in the nomalization value (listed in the post you quoted) instead of the weapon speed. See: Normalization - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft for more information.

Armor is just a flat percentage reduction, I think it's around 40% for a mob w/o debuffs and closer to 30% with full debuffs. Precise values can be found here: Wrath boss armor testing. I'm not sure what the armor value of the test dummies is, but it's fairly simply to reverse engineer by autoattacking and then comparing the average hit value with the value shown on the paperdoll.

Dodge is the simplest of them all, you just add it directly into the chance of the attack to miss. Without any expertise, the miss chance then goes up by 6.5%.

This basic resoning holds true for essentially all of the Death Knight's Melee attacks. Some of them (SS, FS) ignore armor, so you just cut that part out, but otherwise it's all the same.

Althir · 03/25/09, 4:14 AM

I see no reason why Blood Plague should operate any differently than Frost Fever. Impurity, % shadow damage increases, doesn't "see itself" for purposes of RoR.

Plague Strike: Plague Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft

Before armor, we have:

[[(Weapon Damage) + (AP*3.3/14)]*0.3]

This is a normal hit. We have a 30% crit damage bonus, and a 6% crit chance increase from Vicious Strikes. We also have CSD

Crit = 200% damage

200% * (1 + 0.3 + 0.03) = 266%

[(Crit + 0.06)(2.66) + (1 - crit - 0.06)(1)] is our crit information with Vicious Strikes. So:

[[(Weapon Damage) + (AP*3.3/14)]*0.3]*[(Crit + 0.06)(2.66) + (1 - crit - 0.06)(1)] = Average PS hit

Also, a question to the OP: is there a reason we're doing this with live talents and not trying to get some numbers with PTR talents?

Sympa · 03/25/09, 4:26 AM

Originally Posted by Althir

Also, a question to the OP: is there a reason we're doing this with live talents and not trying to get some numbers with PTR talents?

For the most part changes have only been to percentage values. No telling how much more fine tuning there will be when ptr goes live. Additionally when the changes are made live all we have to do is change the formulas we've mapped somewhat slightly to account for percentage changes.

The point here really is to map the abilities so that some industrious theory-crafter can build a dps accurate spread sheet. But before anyone can really do that we really do need to flesh out how exactly damage is being calculated because right now there are 4-5 spreadsheets out there all calculating damage drastically differently. Not to discredit any of them however mapping out each ability would make all of them more accurate. Kroot's spreadsheet has been the best I've seen so far and that only really deals with stat weighting but the building blocks are there to model dps. Just need to add a length of the encounter and an actual rotation portion. Pet modeling would come later but for now I think it's well on its way.

elf-boy · 03/25/09, 8:25 AM

I have a question. This thread looks very promising to me and may well answer a few qestions in my mind.

With Identical gear live v PTR I am seeing a big hit to my Icy Touch with 0/20/51. Talent wise I am only expecting to take a 10% hit, the black ice reduction. Is the sigil which is being reduced quite a bit figured in at base damage before modifyers? Like +spell damage on a caster maybe? That would explain the damage diferance I am seeing.

Gona go run some more tests, right now on live I have my max crit value aorund 4k with Icy Touch (self buffs only, no raid, pots etc) and on PTR I can just scrape a 3k crit. Oddly, normal hits seem to have an even bigger range.... mayhaps some sort of bug at work?

Just spent some time beating up a few poor dummies. Obvioulsy all my abilities are not adding up damage properly, disease etc, I did come to notice another factor in my missing damage that seems to go well beyound talent changes. Cinderglasiers did not seem to be procing much at all. Unless this is ment as a total nerf that would also be a significant change in my damage. On the other hand blood boil is definatly up.

What I didnt get is that frost strike damage between the two titansteel crafted maces (eg on DW as main other the two hander) did not seem outside the small sample size. I expected the two hander to hit much harder with the strikes then it did. With the two specs (at least on the dummy) the DW damage was better then when using a 2h, but not what I am getting live. I'll do some more live testing tomorow.

On another note, is there an easy way to capture recount data to a file?

Thanks

Afabar · 03/25/09, 9:31 AM

Using 20 point in the frost tree,
* on live : Glacier Rot (+ 10%) and Black Ice (+ 30%)
* on the ptr : Black ice (+10%)

Sympa · 03/25/09, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by elf-boy

I have a question. This thread looks very promising to me and may well answer a few qestions in my mind.

With Identical gear live v PTR I am seeing a big hit to my Icy Touch with 0/20/51. Talent wise I am only expecting to take a 10% hit, the black ice reduction. Is the sigil which is being reduced quite a bit figured in at base damage before modifyers? Like +spell damage on a caster maybe? That would explain the damage diferance I am seeing.

Gona go run some more tests, right now on live I have my max crit value aorund 4k with Icy Touch (self buffs only, no raid, pots etc) and on PTR I can just scrape a 3k crit. Oddly, normal hits seem to have an even bigger range.... mayhaps some sort of bug at work?

Just spent some time beating up a few poor dummies. Obvioulsy all my abilities are not adding up damage properly, disease etc, I did come to notice another factor in my missing damage that seems to go well beyound talent changes. Cinderglasiers did not seem to be procing much at all. Unless this is ment as a total nerf that would also be a significant change in my damage. On the other hand blood boil is definatly up.

What I didnt get is that frost strike damage between the two titansteel crafted maces (eg on DW as main other the two hander) did not seem outside the small sample size. I expected the two hander to hit much harder with the strikes then it did. With the two specs (at least on the dummy) the DW damage was better then when using a 2h, but not what I am getting live. I'll do some more live testing tomorow.

On another note, is there an easy way to capture recount data to a file?

Thanks

Please keep questions like this to other threads. I really don't want this thread to become about rehashing mechanics and abilities and answering simple questions.

Yotka · 03/25/09, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Althir

I see no reason why Blood Plague should operate any differently than Frost Fever. Impurity, % shadow damage increases, doesn't "see itself" for purposes of RoR.

Plague Strike: Plague Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft

Before armor, we have:

[[(Weapon Damage) + (AP*3.3/14)]*0.3]

This is a normal hit. We have a 30% crit damage bonus, and a 6% crit chance increase from Vicious Strikes. We also have CSD

Crit = 200% damage

200% * (1 + 0.3 + 0.03) = 266%

[(Crit + 0.06)(2.66) + (1 - crit - 0.06)(1)] is our crit information with Vicious Strikes. So:

[[(Weapon Damage) + (AP*3.3/14)]*0.3]*[(Crit + 0.06)(2.66) + (1 - crit - 0.06)(1)] = Average PS hit

Also, a question to the OP: is there a reason we're doing this with live talents and not trying to get some numbers with PTR talents?

Your 200% * (1 + 0.3 + 0.03) = 266% is interesting.

The question is how exactly does GoG/MoM and VS exactly work?

((((758)+(5000/14)*3.3)*0.6)+150) = 1311.94

Now let's boost FS with all modifiers and a raid situation:

(((1311.94*1.1)*1.3)*1.1)*1.13 = 2331.96

If you have a blood subspec you can add *1.04 for 2331.96*1.04 = 2425.24 damage.

Using your formula we would have with GoG:

200% * (1 + 0.45 + 0.03 ) = 296% damage on a CRITICAL STRIKE.

2425.24 * 2.96 = 7178.7104

But... if we were to simply add the damage in a simplistic way:

200% + 45% +3% = 248%

And 2425.24 * 2.48 = 6014.59

And if we read the tooltip:

Apply Aura: Add % Modifier (15)
Value: 45

So that would simply be adding 45% to 200%.

So no it's no 266% on Plague strike but 233% at the most.

To add to that: Leaflocks WWS link (If you don't mind me using it of course).

START OF LOG FILE

0:01'37.219 Hewny Heart Strike hits Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test) for 2831 Physical. #1581
0:01'38.856 Hewny Heart Strike hits Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test) for 2632 Physical. #1815
0:01'47.643 Hewny Heart Strike hits Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test) for 3063 Physical. #3362
0:01'49.233 Hewny Heart Strike hits Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test) for 2913 Physical. #3557
0:01'50.940 Hewny Heart Strike hits Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test) for 2824 Physical. #3854
0:01'52.505 Hewny Heart Strike hits Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test) for 7514 Physical. (Critical) #4190
0:01'58.492 Hewny Heart Strike hits Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test) for 2799 Physical. #5153

2799+2824+3063+2831+2632+2913 = 17062

17062 / 6 = 2843 Average Heart Strike.

2843*2.96 = 8417 damage in my book.

Or we simply divide 7514 damage by 2.96... 7514 / 2.96 = 2538.51

2538.51 is a bit far off from his average HS damage isn't it?

♦ Darkside · 03/25/09, 3:42 PM

You need a much larger sample size than that (for crits at least), if you're going to try and experimentally determine the crit multiplier. We have no idea if that one crit that was recorded was the average, slightly deviant from the average or an outlier of epic proportions.

Yotka · 03/25/09, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Darkside

You need a much larger sample size than that (for crits at least), if you're going to try and experimentally determine the crit multiplier. We have no idea if that one crit that was recorded was the average, slightly deviant from the average or an outlier of epic proportions.

I entirely agree - but it allows us to look in a set direction - thus not betting on two horses at once and focusing on one.

We would need a sample of about 100 Heart Strikes (non-crits) and 100 Heart Strikes (crits) without Hysteria of course... to figure the correct numbers.

Which is what I'll do. And I'm hoping that others will also provide numbers.

This will affect stat weights as far as critical strike rating goes if it is indeed a 200% * (1 + CCMOD + CCMOD) value.

♦ Darkside · 03/25/09, 4:02 PM

My current understanding of the situation is that talents like GoG and MoM are straight multipliers to the crit bonus:

The standard crit bonus is 1, in that it adds 1*Damage to the attack whenever it crits. Taking one of these talents results in a crit bonus of 1*1.45 = 1.45.

Now for Howling Blast, it's a bit different, since it has a "base" crit bonus of 0.5 (w/o the passive DK ability, I'll get to that in a bit). Therefore, with GoG, it's bonus becomes 1.45*0.5 = 0.725. We then add 0.5 from the DK passive to this and get 1.25 as the final crit bonus (225% damage increase on crits). This issue (the odd method of calculation) was brought up in the general forums a while back and is reportedly "working as intended" according to the devs.

With respect to the Chaotic Skyflare meta, I'm not quite sure how it works. I know that it works differently from all the other crit enhancers, but I'm not sure exactly of the details. I'll post again when I've got it nailed down.