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Old 04/17/09, 9:34 AM   #181
Montegomery
Aloof Aggravator
 
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Sutiru
Undead Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by jraschke11 View Post
Hmm, not sure if you are in unholy stance for this? Or just smoking something buddy. I just spent the last few hours on this rotation. Your fourth HS hits right exactly as your first disease expires. NO ROOM whatsoever for error.
Allow me to make it clear how this works. Here is the timeline starting with the first, priming iteration.

00.0: IT
01.5: PS
03.0: HS
04.5: HS
06.0: DS
07.5: DC
09.0: GCD Ends, but the first Frost Rune hasn't refreshed yet.
10.0: F refreshes, but the first Unholy Rune hasn't refreshed yet.
11.5: U refreshes, DS
13.0: HS
14.5: HS
16.0: HS
17.5: HS
19.0: DC
20.5: DC, end of the first iteration
21.0: Because of the notable delay in the first iteration, you would get additional DoT ticks here from 2/2 Epidemic.
21.5: UF Refresh
22.0: GCD ends, IT.
23.5: PS, this rune will refresh at the same time as the F rune.
25.0: HS
26.5: HS
28.0: DS
29.5: DC
31.0: GCD ends, but we still have a second before the UF refresh.
32.0: UF refresh, DS
33.5: HS
35.0: HS
36.5: HS
38.0: HS, it has been 16 seconds since we used IT.
39.5: DC
41.0: DC, end of the second iteration
42.0: UF runes refresh
42.5: GCD ends, IT, continue ad nauseam.

Compare what you have been doing against that timeline. You should be able to see A) why it works and B) what it is you're doing differently.

Originally Posted by Vectivus View Post
... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.
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Old 04/17/09, 9:40 AM   #182
Drakanis
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Gaz1099 View Post
The difference is not just perma ghoul, but perma ghoul+UB+Ghoul glyph. Plus, Blood gorged is not always active, esp. as we get more raid damage intensive fights, and less Patch type fights. 44/0/27 gains simpler and easier excution, and 51/x/x has on-demand burst.
This and you still get some additional damage from Dirge generating more RP for another DC in your rotation...which is a solid DPS increase as well. There is also some passive (albeit relatively crappy) damage contributed from Blood Caked Blade as well. I would also add that the damage is more consistent to the description of the 44/0/27 (quoted above).

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Old 04/17/09, 10:22 AM   #183
Pirjo
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade View Post
Allow me to make it clear how this works. Here is the timeline starting with the first, priming iteration.
...
07.5: DC
09.0: GCD Ends, but the first Frost Rune hasn't refreshed yet.
10.0: F refreshes, but the first Unholy Rune hasn't refreshed yet.
11.5: U refreshes, DS
13.0: HS
14.5: HS
16.0: HS
17.5: HS
19.0: DC
20.5: DC, end of the first iteration
21.0: Because of the notable delay in the first iteration, you would get additional DoT ticks here from 2/2 Epidemic.
21.5: UF Refresh
22.0: GCD ends, IT.
23.5: PS, this rune will refresh at the same time as the F rune.

Compare what you have been doing against that timeline. You should be able to see A) why it works and B) what it is you're doing differently.
Based on this, couldn't you just RP dump again at 9.0 seconds instead of 20.5 seconds? These would leave you with only requiring pushing to the ideal rotation from 21.5 seconds to 22.0 seconds periodically, instead of every time. Of course this would require RPM to not DC below 25 during that dump phase without energy loss, since you are opening with DS. Worst case you enter 11.5 seconds with just under 65 RP, and reach ~130 when you hit DC range at 19.0 seconds.
Overall though, I would argue for the second point of epidemic. Take Salviastria's wws on page 4. One extra tick for 550 damage per disease every ~22 seconds is a 50 dps increase. He did 5.450k dps, the extra ticks are worth 0.92% dps* on their own, in addition to the effects of not losing disease buffs to HS due to fight mechanics breaking up the rotation. If you remember from earlier in this thread, morbidity is worth ~0.5-0.6% dps per talent point, making epidemic a higher priority talent to max then morbidity, ignoring the DnD CD reduction.
Based on this I advise we assume 2/2 epidemic is worthwhile and move to:
morbidity vs rav dead... morbidity we basically know, but rav dead calculations need to be specified: NotD or no NotD.

*Edit: Due to rune grace period the extra ticks from 2/2 epidemic are limited to the opening rotation, and places where dps contact is lost. So the disease ticks would yield lower than a 0.92% dps increase.

Last edited by Pirjo : 04/17/09 at 12:17 PM.

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Old 04/17/09, 10:29 AM   #184
Grobmoscher
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Eredar (EU)
Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade View Post
Allow me to make it clear how this works. Here is the timeline starting with the first, priming iteration.


....timeline......


Compare what you have been doing against that timeline. You should be able to see A) why it works and B) what it is you're doing differently.
Is there an reason why you dont start with DS for an Abomination's Might buff right from the start?

This would although change the timeline, like


00.0: IT -> DS
01.5: PS -> IT
03.0: HS -> PS
04.5: HS -> HS
06.0: DS -> HS
07.5: DC -> DC
09.0: GCD Ends, but the first Frost/Unholy Rune hasn't refreshed yet.
10.0: F refreshes, -> F/U aka D/D refreshes, HS
11.5: U refreshes, DS -> HS
13.0: HS -> DC
14.5: HS -> HS
16.0: HS -> HS
17.5: HS -> DS
19.0: DC -> DC
.
.
.

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Old 04/17/09, 11:06 AM   #185
Montegomery
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Sutiru
Undead Warrior
 
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Originally Posted by Pirjo View Post
Based on this, couldn't you just RP dump again at 9.0 seconds instead of 20.5 seconds? These would leave you with only requiring pushing to the ideal rotation from 21.5 seconds to 22.0 seconds periodically, instead of every time. Of course this would require RPM to not DC below 25 during that dump phase without energy loss, since you are opening with DS. Worst case you enter 11.5 seconds with just under 65 RP, and reach ~130 when you hit DC range at 19.0 seconds.
Overall though, I would argue for the second point of epidemic. Take Salviastria's wws on page 4. One extra tick for 550 damage per disease every ~22 seconds is a 50 dps increase. He did 5.450k dps, the extra ticks are worth 0.92% dps on their own, in addition to the effects of not losing disease buffs to HS due to fight mechanics breaking up the rotation. If you remember from earlier in this thread, morbidity is worth ~0.5-0.6% dps per talent point, making epidemic a higher priority talent to max then morbidity, ignoring the DnD CD reduction.
Based on this I advise we assume 2/2 epidemic is worthwhile and move to:
morbidity vs rav dead... morbidity we basically know, but rav dead calculations need to be specified: NotD or no NotD.
Going backwards, you only get the extra tick on "priming" iterations or when movement forces you away from a boss. That may be often enough to make it worthwhile, or it may not. The lost HS argument doesn't resonate with me, as most events I've experienced which separate you from a boss do so to an extent that makes the point moot.

To answer your first question, if you have the RP for it you have a good point, a half second can be shaved off the priming iteration by using DC twice there and only once after the second half. If you don't have the RP you probably want to skip the DC at 20.5 seconds anyway in order to build RP.

You may actually end up skipping the third DC fairly often. With DRW being used every 90 seconds, you need to store 100-130 RP over 4.5-5 rotations, effectively requiring an average surplus of 25 RP per rotation. However, if we use 3 DCs every rotation we have a deficit of 2 RP (110 RP generated from runes, 8 from Butchery). Thus you can only use a third DC once or twice out of 4-5 rotations, barring outside effects generating RP (such as Resto Druids and Disc Priests).

Originally Posted by Grobmoscher View Post
Is there an reason why you dont start with DS for an Abomination's Might buff right from the start?
Mostly because I was caught up in making it clear how, through repetition and what I thought was a simple example, the gap between the final HS and diseases dropping widens. In a "real world" scenario you should definitely open as you described.

Last edited by Montegomery : 04/17/09 at 11:17 AM.

Originally Posted by Vectivus View Post
... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.
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Old 04/17/09, 11:27 AM   #186
Pirjo
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade View Post
Allow me to make it clear how this works. Here is the timeline starting with the first, priming iteration.
22.0: GCD ends, IT.
23.5: PS, this rune will refresh at the same time as the F rune.
25.0: HS
26.5: HS
28.0: DS
29.5: DC
31.0: GCD ends, but we still have a second before the UF refresh.
32.0: UF refresh, DS
It isn't just the priming rotation, all future rotations are 21.5 seconds long as well. The error that allowed for post-priming rotations is highlighted. Basically, every time you IT, PS then DS, your DS is 11.5 seconds after your IT. Your next IT is always 10 seconds later. So the time between IT's can never be less then 21.5 seconds (in BP). So every 21.5 seconds you gain a tick of each disease.

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Old 04/17/09, 11:44 AM   #187
Montegomery
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Sutiru
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Originally Posted by Pirjo View Post
It isn't just the priming rotation, all future rotations are 21.5 seconds long as well. The error that allowed for post-priming rotations is highlighted. Basically, every time you IT, PS then DS, your DS is 11.5 seconds after your IT. Your next IT is always 10 seconds later. So the time between IT's can never be less then 21.5 seconds (in BP). So every 21.5 seconds you gain a tick of each disease.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you objecting to my claim that the Unholy rune used at 23.5 seconds will refresh at the same time as the Frost rune used at 22.0? If so, the following section of the TTT might be useful reference.

Death Knight: PvE DPS

If not, I'll have to ask you to be more specific, as otherwise I don't know what it is that's wrong.

Originally Posted by Vectivus View Post
... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.
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Old 04/17/09, 11:47 AM   #188
SMSick
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Shadowmoon
Hey new guy here.

I was curious as to why more mention hasn't been given to Glyph of Disease. I have been trying to do a rotation seems to be working out decently, other than I don't have my mind wrapped around pushing the pushing the Pest hotkey instead of my IT/PS keys.

DS (UF), IT (F), PS (U), HS (B), HS (B)
HS (D), HS (D), DS (UF), HS (B), Pest (B)
DS (UF), HS (D), HS (D), HS (B), HS(B)
HS (D), HS (D), DS (UF), HS (B), Pest(B)

Obviously, RP dump in there.

I havn't counted but I think you would gain an extra HS in this mess. Thoughts anyone?

Btw, im running with 51/2/18 with 2/2 Epidemic.

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Old 04/17/09, 12:10 PM   #189
Lazareth
Piston Honda
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by SMSick View Post
I was curious as to why more mention hasn't been given to Glyph of Disease.

...

I havn't counted but I think you would gain an extra HS in this mess. Thoughts anyone?
A lot of mention has been given on this very subject (more than necessary, in fact), at least once per page and in the old blood thread as well. This is not new and amazing information. The skinny of it is, it is not worth the loss of a major glyph spot. Do a search for more detailed information, but it has been theorized and tested to not be as efficient as just re-applying your diseases.


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Old 04/17/09, 12:10 PM   #190
Alendia
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Bloodscalp
Originally Posted by Pirjo View Post
It isn't just the priming rotation, all future rotations are 21.5 seconds long as well. The error that allowed for post-priming rotations is highlighted. Basically, every time you IT, PS then DS, your DS is 11.5 seconds after your IT. Your next IT is always 10 seconds later. So the time between IT's can never be less then 21.5 seconds (in BP). So every 21.5 seconds you gain a tick of each disease.
The part you're missing here is that runes have a 2 second "grace period". As long as you use a rune within 2 seconds of it refreshing, it will count as if it was used right when it first refreshed. So if you have:

0.0 IT
1.5 PS
...
11.5 DS

your frost rune should come back up at 20.0 and your unholy rune at 21.5, because your frost rune was used within the grace period and therefore counted as being used at 10.0, when it refreshed. Of course, if you just miss the 2 second window, it gets a little icky, so sometimes you will end up with a >= 21.5 second rotation anyway.

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Old 04/17/09, 12:11 PM   #191
Pirjo
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you objecting to my claim that the Unholy rune used at 23.5 seconds will refresh at the same time as the Frost rune used at 22.0? If so, the following section of the TTT might be useful reference.
Death Knight: PvE DPS
If not, I'll have to ask you to be more specific, as otherwise I don't know what it is that's wrong.
That's what I was missing. Thanks.

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Old 04/17/09, 12:14 PM   #192
Antiock
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by SMSick View Post
Hey new guy here.

I was curious as to why more mention hasn't been given to Glyph of Disease. I have been trying to do a rotation seems to be working out decently, other than I don't have my mind wrapped around pushing the pushing the Pest hotkey instead of my IT/PS keys.

DS (UF), IT (F), PS (U), HS (B), HS (B)
HS (D), HS (D), DS (UF), HS (B), Pest (B)
DS (UF), HS (D), HS (D), HS (B), HS(B)
HS (D), HS (D), DS (UF), HS (B), Pest(B)

Obviously, RP dump in there.

I havn't counted but I think you would gain an extra HS in this mess. Thoughts anyone?

Btw, im running with 51/2/18 with 2/2 Epidemic.
You may want to read, like, any page in this thread. It gets brought up a lot. I think the concensus is that it's the best third glyph you can get until you find someone who can make DRW.

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Old 04/17/09, 12:16 PM   #193
Fhaze
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Gul'dan
Originally Posted by Tikiman49 View Post
Doing some quick 3-5 minute tests, I was finding a 44/0/27 build to be doing roughly the damage I remember getting from my 51/2/18 build on the PTR, within 50-100 dps, I can't be sure.

I'm not on a server with the DRW glyph yet so I can't test the 51/x/x spec properly, but can I get some people with higher gear levels (mine is relatively crappy) to test this out? How well does the ghoul scale with raid buffs?

Yes, the ghoul in a 44/0/27 build will scale with raid buffs. It works just like a hunter pet as in it will double dip on buffs (gets stats from you + your buffs and buffs tossed on it). I have been seeing some very nice numbers out of this build myself. However, in the build i am running, I have 2 points in Impurity instead of Dirge, and took GoDisease over Dark Death. I am not sure if Dark Death will give more DPS on this build since with Disease I can refresh my diseases with one rune vs. two therefore I am able to get in another HS on the refresh rotation.

44/0/27 Any pointers on this build are extremely welcome.

Last edited by Fhaze : 04/17/09 at 12:22 PM.

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Old 04/17/09, 1:01 PM   #194
Dachef
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Tortheldrin
So are we keeping Sigil of Awareness as blood or the new Vengeful Heart?

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Old 04/17/09, 1:04 PM   #195
Laraque
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Silver Hand
Originally Posted by SMSick View Post
I was curious as to why more mention hasn't been given to Glyph of Disease. I have been trying to do a rotation seems to be working out decently, other than I don't have my mind wrapped around pushing the pushing the Pest hotkey instead of my IT/PS keys.
Using actual parsed average values from a WWS report on Sarth:
IT damage + PS damage + HS damage = 1165+ 1344 + 2548 = 5057
DS damage + Pest damage = 3776 + 0 = 3776

I realize that one has 3 GDCs and the other has 2 GDCs but it is easy to see why the 3 runes are more effective at producing damage using IT, PS, & HS then DS & Pest.

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