Elitist Jerks There Will Be Blood (DPS) - Meet the new thread/Same as the old thread

04/17/09, 1:05 PM   #196
dwig102
Glass Joe

Draenei Hunter

Azjol-Nerub
 Originally Posted by Teme I don't know...diseaseless is still very viable and unless you have 4p T8 diseases are too much hassle. Assuming you have obvious glyphs and talents DS, HS, DC repeat is still working wonders.
I ran some math on this the other day in attempt to prove that diseaseless wasn't really viable, and much to my surprise, that's not really what the numbers showed.

Assuming a blood w/ diseases rotation of:
IT PS HS HS DS <dump>
DS HS HS HS HS <dump>

and a diseaseless rotation of:
DS HS HS HS HS <dump>
HS HS DS HS HS <dump>

Both rotations generate the exact same amount of runic power (not counting IT glyph if you use it), though the diseaseless spec would free up points in epidemic for points in ravenous dead or morbidity, depending on your preference, but more on this later.

For w = weapon damage and assuming 33% crit, the damage done over 3 rotations from rune abilities (approximately a minute) will be on average

diseaseless: 36.66w + 22217.68
w/ diseases: 36.23w + 22104.77 + 2.38ap

Increase the crit to 50%, and you get

diseaseless: 42.63w + 25837.42
w/ diseases: 42.10w + 25625.86 + 2.43ap

To get w, you have (Wdps + (1/14)ap)*3.3 (3.3 is normalized 2h speed). In the case of a Betrayer and 4000ap, you have w = 1678.43 average damage. In order to account for death coil damage, let's assume a spec of 51/0/20 for blood w/ diseases. To make that diseaseless, move the 2 points from epidemic into morbidity. Each rotation will generate 110 RP per iteration, though diseaseless will generate more DCs via sudden doom. On average, diseaseless will generate 11.85 DCs that hit harder than blood w/ diseases' 10.95 DCs. All together after 3 rotations, using a Betrayer with 4k ap, ability damage will be around
.......................33% crit (dps).............50% crit (dps)
diseaseless: 104543.24 (1742.4) 120841.14 (2014)
w/ diseases: 109902.48 (1831.7) 125708.73 (2095.1)

I include calculations for two values of crit to illustrate that the value of crit is bigger for diseaseless than for blood w/ diseases, but that the difference isn't nearly enough to magically make diseaseless effective (even at 100% crit). In addition, you have to factor in an extra 9% physical damage from BV and an extra 4% damage on everything but IT, FF and BP (clearly favoring diseaseless). Adding those in yields an overall change of less than 5dps in the difference between diseaseless and blood w/ diseases.

In conclusion, the math presents that blood w/ diseases is the optimal dps rotation, though not by a huge margin. In practice, it comes down to whether you can squeeze all of the HS into the disease timers consistently, which depends heavily on the amount of target switching/moving around that has to happen in a fight.

(Disclaimer: Keep in mind that the above math assumed no raid buffs, assumed hit cap and didn't factor in for armor mitigation, which would make minimal differences at best, seeing as how both rotations are heavily reliant on physical damage.)

 04/17/09, 1:29 PM #197 Tikiman49 Von Kaiser     Krayadin Tauren Paladin   Wyrmrest Accord This certainly affects the damage of a DK swinging on a dummy with no outside influences, but here are some other things to consider, dwig. Only one point in epidemic is really needed, meaning that a point could be moved from the diseased build to Morbidity, closing the gap in the strength of DC Dancing Rune Weapon will ALSO be doing higher damage than diseased with its strikes, meaning that the gap widens when you take into account DRW uptime I don't think a minute-long theorized test is the best way to compare the specs, as that isn't a long enough period for any worthwhile statistics to be generated. Over time, the gap will widen, leaving a more notable difference. And on that note, you didn't take into account that the first runecycle of diseaseless is DS DS HS HS (unless I'm mistaken...), which would have a large effect on a 60 second test. So basically, yes they may be close, but not as close as you theorized, I think.
04/17/09, 1:46 PM   #198
Grondarg
Von Kaiser

Orc Death Knight

 Originally Posted by dwig102 I ran some math on this the other day in attempt to prove that diseaseless wasn't really viable, and much to my surprise, that's not really what the numbers showed. Assuming a blood w/ diseases rotation of: IT PS HS HS DS DS HS HS HS HS and a diseaseless rotation of: DS HS HS HS HS HS HS DS HS HS

Shouldn't these be:

DS It PS HS HS <dump>
HS HS HS HS HS HS <dump>

and:

DS DS HS HS <Dump>
HS HS HS HS HS HS <dump>

 04/17/09, 2:06 PM #199 dwig102 Glass Joe   Zilnis Draenei Hunter   Azjol-Nerub Thanks for pointing those out, Tiki. I left out the math regarding DRW under the assumption that it would simply mirror what was already happening, and the 60 seconds is meant to be a snapshot of a longer dps cycle (assuming the setups of DS DS HS HS and DS IT PS HS HS), but ignoring the setup's effect on dps was bad of me, especially if you start with 0 RP. All in all, I'm very much a fan of blood with diseases rather than without (love those huge crits), and the points you make further emphasize that blood w/ diseases is the optimal way to go. Grondarg: DS DS HS HS followed by HSx6 produces the same strike totals, 8HS and 2DC per rotation as the one I used. As far as I've seen, it's just a matter of preference as to whether you like more GCDs for RP dumping after part 1 or if you like the same number of GCDs between each part. I always went with DS HSx4 because it was easier for me to maintain, not that either is particularly difficult. Last edited by dwig102 : 04/17/09 at 2:12 PM. Reason: clarity
04/17/09, 2:09 PM   #200
halfpint
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Death Knight

Lightbringer
 Originally Posted by Grondarg Shouldn't these be: DS It PS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS and: DS DS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS
First one would be

DS It PS HS HS <dump>
HS HS HS HS DS <dump>

IT & PS don't turn into deathrunes

04/17/09, 2:27 PM   #201
jraschke11
Glass Joe

Night Elf Death Knight

Elune
 Originally Posted by Nightseye He's not smoking anything... he specifically said in his explanation that the first rotation will skim near the end of Frost Fever, but the subsequent rotations will not have the same problem.

I honestly cannot understand what I am doing wrong. I even tried it in OS last night and could not consistently keep both diseases up for the full rotation.

Yes, the numbers work out on paper. But this is not a game of paper. It's a game of moving out of lava walls and void zones, which means no rotation that is that close will be perfect.

I will just keep 2/2 epidemic, 3/3 morbidity, 3/3 revenous dead, 5/5 necrosis, and 2/3 BCB and be happy with it.

The non-perma ghoul damage just doesn't do enough to warrant the points in NoTD from my testing.

Last edited by jraschke11 : 04/17/09 at 2:58 PM.

 04/17/09, 3:15 PM #202 AtheistGod Piston Honda     AtheistGods Orc Death Knight   Zul'Jin I'm using Excel to try and compare diseased and diseaseless. If anyone had ideas about a good diseaseless rotation it would be helpful.
04/17/09, 3:29 PM   #203
Alendia
Glass Joe

Bloodscalp
 Originally Posted by AtheistGod I'm using Excel to try and compare diseased and diseaseless. If anyone had ideas about a good diseaseless rotation it would be helpful.
A good pair of rotations to compare would probably be:

HS-HS-DS-HS-HS-DC-DC
HS-HS-HS-HS-DS-DC

and

IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-DC-DC
DS-HS-HS-HS-HS-DC

Both are fairly simple and the only real difference is the diseases. This should make comparisons easier. In both cases, the 2 RP loss per cycle is made up by refreshing HoW every few rotations, or possibly using BT+HS.

Edit: As people will no doubt leap to point out, these are only the repeating parts of the cycle. Both rotations have a slightly different startup.

 04/17/09, 3:50 PM #204 AtheistGod Piston Honda     AtheistGods Orc Death Knight   Zul'Jin I'll use those for my early numbers we can get more in depth if need be I guess. Hopefully there will be a clear winner with those alone.
04/17/09, 5:25 PM   #205
Lazareth
Piston Honda

Human Death Knight

Eldre'Thalas
 Originally Posted by AtheistGod I'm using Excel to try and compare diseased and diseaseless. If anyone had ideas about a good diseaseless rotation it would be helpful.
Pre-3.1 the Diseaseless rotation I used was OBx2 HSx2 Repeat. Try with DSx2 HSx2 and see how that does, I would guess.

And as an FYI, I don't see it coming out on top and, as with the last diseaseless breakthrough, it will likely be patched to not work later. Blizzard has stated numerous times that diseases are an integral mechanic of the Deathknight class and they do not want diseaseless to be a viable option. Maybe on weak trash but definitely not on solid rotations. I can't find the quote from Ghostcrawler right now but I will edit later if I stumble across it.

 04/17/09, 5:26 PM #206 AtheistGod Piston Honda     AtheistGods Orc Death Knight   Zul'Jin I will say that diseased blows diseaseless out of the water. This is purely because diseased scales better with AP. I never tested armor values above 0 however diseaseless is hit harder by armor. Weapon damage and crit both scale better with diseaseless than diseased but even at an impossible 100% crit chance and using voldrethar diseased was behind diseaseless at 5000 AP. Since even favoring diseaseless by giving 100% crit 100% ArP and a low 5000 AP doesn't allow it to overcome diseased I don't think it ever will. Edit: To Lazareth: I tried that out and that didn't even do as well as the previous diseaseless rotation. Edit 2: Ya i remember that quote and expected them to fix it if diseaseless did come out on top. It's just that with the switch from OB to DS I was wondering if the 0 impact diseases had on it would tip the scales back to diseaseless. But it seems Blizzard knew what they were doing since it takes numbers such as 100% crit 0 armor sub 3k AP and voldrethar for diseaseless to beat diseased. Last edited by AtheistGod : 04/17/09 at 5:49 PM.
 04/17/09, 6:23 PM #207 Farraden Glass Joe   Farraden Human Death Knight   Lothar Hey what should we do now that DS just got nerfed into the ground? Stick with DS specs or move back to OB?
04/17/09, 6:36 PM   #208
royaljester
Piston Honda

Orc Death Knight

Kil'Jaeden
 Originally Posted by Farraden Hey what should we do now that DS just got nerfed into the ground? Stick with DS specs or move back to OB?
Where do you see that? I've seen no mention of it being "nerfed" into the ground. Source?

My question is about stat weights. I was looking at the old stat weights done by zyrm I think, and wondered what changed for blood, if anything? I think the 25% buff to Haste and ArPen would be the only thing, correct? Anyone have some napkin math stat weights they'd like to share or link me to find one? I Searched the FAQ and the old Blood forum and didn't find anything.

 04/17/09, 6:44 PM #209 Farraden Glass Joe   Farraden Human Death Knight   Lothar Ah sorry, I was just reading from the class forums on the WoW website, also I was doing some tests and DS crits only heal me for barely 3k But if I have my numbers correct reading from these forums, didn't DS only have a very small increase over OB? I'm just wondering if we should respec back to OB rotations or still keep on using DS
04/17/09, 6:55 PM   #210
Alborak
Von Kaiser

Human Death Knight

Kilrogg
 Originally Posted by Dachef So are we keeping Sigil of Awareness as blood or the new Vengeful Heart?
Some napkin math:

SoVH = +380 to DC
SoA = +315 to DS

Standard rotations have 2 DS every rotation, with 3 DC in that same period. A rough modeling of Sudden doom is to apply 15% of a death coil to each HS, so with 6 HS per rotation thats 6(0.15) = .9 of another Death Coil.

Vengeful Heart: 380x3.9 = 1482 extra damage / rotation.
Awareness: 315x2 = 630 extra damage / rotaion.

Awareness does have the benefit of the MoM crit multiplier and a higher crit rate, but that should not be enough to overcome more than double base difference. Vengeance should be a pretty clear upgrade. Now only if I had done this before I let it go to the tank

 Elitist Jerks There Will Be Blood (DPS) - Meet the new thread/Same as the old thread