All I'm saying is even that combination wont be a clear lead or loss (yes I tried this combo as well). T8 4p makes the worse pieces of T8 work like they were itemized properly or better. Guess we'll have to see with real testing.

Edit: To comment on gemming for ArP instead of STR. The more ArP you have the more powerful it is. It will never be much more powerful than STR though so for rounding out stats It may be better to just stick with STR or even a Mix to be more effective in all situations.

I have quite a bit issues with choosing talents from unholy. Since army was very usable in Naxx I though that Notd for blood would be very nice but so far it seems that least ghoul army looks quite un-usable in lots of fights in Ulduar.

Army is only dps upgrade if you summon them pre-pull. 3 runes + 6sec channeling isn't worth it in middle of fight in most cases. I'm using atm 51/2/18 with 5/5 necrosis and 3/3 BCB leaving ravenous dead and notd out of the build since those 2 talents will be "up" all the time. Unfortunately since necrosis nerf it's only doing around 3.6-4% of my total damage.

I could always drop 2p necrosis and get notd but without ghoul glyph and ravenous dead is it worth the trouble? Dropping RPM and 3/5 necrosis you can fit ravenous dead and notd but is it really dps increase?

My post wasnt referring to swapping Str for ArP gems. We should gem for Str, always, no matter what. Im simply talking about replacing 4 pc T8 with 2 pieces of ArP gear.

Either way, its still not much of a bonus. Even 5% wouldnt be all that much.

I agree, you cant really lose either way. But I dont like the idea of having to pick up haste gear (or extremely hit heavy gear like our gloves) in order to get a bonus that applies to one ability. And not only that...but a bonus that clearly has been shown to be subpar. I think the ArP bonus will eventually win out, but we will see.

NotD provides the temporary ghoul with AoE damage reduction. The temporary ghoul should be cast on every single cooldown. His DPS can not be understated.

And why are you not getting Ravenous Dead? Your points should be: 2/2 Vicious Strikes, 3/3 Virulence, 3/3 Morbidity, 1/2 Epidemic, and 3/3 Ravenous Dead as your first 12 points. Ravenous Dead not only buffs the temp ghoul, but DRW as well. The more STR we have, the better our stats are, the harder DRW hits.

As you mentioned yourself though, and in previous tests, 1 STR always trumps 1 ArP. So it's true that ArP doesn't scare linearly ...but it also makes strength yield an increasing return, right?

Also...here is some food for thought: Since my talents were refunded today, I accidentally dragged Blood Strike onto my bar instead of heart strike. I tanked for most of the night, and didn't notice it until I was looking at logs.

XT-WMO

• This week:
  DPS using BS: 6036 (51/0/20)
  
• Average BS hit: 3,355
• Average BS crit: 10,163.

• From last week:
  DPS using HS: 6078 (51/2/18)
• Average HS hit: 3,705
• Average HS crit: 9,741

Sorry, I only have XT...it's the only boss I DPS on these days. I'm fully aware that it is far from the best DPS benchmark by any means.

I had specced 44/0/27 yesterday and actualy did start out with UB glyph, but changed this rather soon for DS just because of the sheer damage increase.

As for those people who are saying blood 51/2/18 or 51/0/20 is putting out more dps single target dps im happy to inform you this is far from being true.

I was able to keep up and on some times beat our unholy by a mile, where as before i had trouble reaching him.

Bloodgorged simply isnt worth taking nowadays with the decrease of DS healing, staying capped out for the actual damage increase took me a lot of effort with rune tap/ams/ibf.

Errr, what? That doesnt make any sense. How is 10% more damage and 10% more Armor Pen not worth taking? And you yourself just pointed to the problem. Attempting to stay capped out (by sacrificing blood runes for rune tap, or runic power for IBF) is a dps loss.

Blood Tap > Rune tap fyi.

Point being.. i dont even have to worry about popping any of these skills in 44/0/27.


We'll all I really have as comparison to my old spec in data of wws is kologarn but this is rather trivial since ub is hitting everything.

Still a loss in DPS. That Blood Tap could be used on a Heart Strike. No offense, but youre arguing from the position of someone who isnt playing the spec properly. And your argument is similar to those who think diseaseless blood is better. Im pretty sure Im stealing someones quote from a few pages earlier, but nonetheless: "easier doesnt mean better."

"Not worrying about popping any of these skills" doesnt make your spec better. Nor does it make any sense, since we use DRW every 90 seconds...and you use UB every 20-30 seconds.

So I take it maxing out Morbidity is prioritized from a dps value per point perspective to maxing out Necrosis?

I would like to start with saying that I have been keeping up with this thread since day one and for the most part have found the information to be accurate and helpful. However, since 3.1 I keep seeing a lot of opinions being given with no wws/wmo to back them up.

As of right now you can check my armory for spec/gear/glyphs and here is a link to tonight's brief raid. Wow Web Stats

As far as people saying that 44/0/27 is better dps or that using no diseases is superior then I urge you to post results backing your claim or don't bother posting as it is not contributing in the slightest. From my experience neither of those specs/rotations can come close to what I can pull using the good old 51/0/20.

Dont know, its just preference mostly. I prefer the higher DC damage and lower CD on DnD. Looking at Thoreck's WWS, there doesnt appear to be much of a difference. I cant post a WWS because our WWS logger hasnt done his job in a few weeks, but I do remember my recount before I wiped it.

My 51/2/18 build (3/5 Necro, 1/3 BCB, 3/3 Morbidity):
DC damage is ~10-11%
Necrosis 3%
BCB 1%
DND around 2%

Thoreck's 51/0/20 (1/3 Morbid, 5/5 Necro, 3/3 BCB):
DC damage is 6%
Necrosis is 4%
BCB is 3%.
DnD damage is 1%

Tbh, I think it all evens out. Ignoring DnD (completely random and based on how much you use it) my numbers come out to 14-15% and his 13%. Thats way too close to call and is easily influenced by factors like xt's heart, razorscale's adds, kologarn's arms, etc etc.

No worries, to each his/her own. I do want to forward you to a post I made in the other Blood dps thread.

Blood DPS App. Stn. - Don't Stop Diseasin' (Feat. Runic Power Mastery).mp3

Notice Sim 3 and Sim 4. Granted, its just one test. But thats where the basis of my argument is coming from. Simply switching out 4 pc T8 for 100 ArP yielded around 1.5% more overall dps. If were able to get somewhere around 140-150 ArP from those 2 items switched out...then youre talking about a gain of around 2%.

It just seems dually beneficial: we dump 2 poorly itemized pieces for 2 pieces with very good itemization, and gain overall damage from it. Not to mention were less pigeonholed. Instead of going for a bonus that affects 30% of our damage, were going for a stat that affects around 60-70% of our damage.

I think my issue with that is there is no clean exchange like that from gear at the moment. When you switch stats for ArP you are losing the value of those stats you exchanged. Instead of 100 ArP you would need 100ArP+value of stats lost. I'll look into this later to further my point.

Ok, I've looked into your combination and (with T8 shoulders too) you are well over Hit cap. A major itemization issue is balancing that hit cap with other stats since blood gets virtually nothing from extra hit. I see where you are coming from since you are assuming Grim Toll instead of Mjolnir Runestone. Once you add Mjolnir Runestone to the equation the large amounts of hit on the T8 gloves and shoulders is actually a really good use of stats.

What makes the combo I posted earlier the best for my spreadsheets is that it uses the best items in the best way it can while still utilizing the T8 Bonus and wasting the least amount of Hit. This may change once more gear is available (more shoulders please!) but for now I'm getting a solid 7k DPS out of my selection where yours would be closer to 6900. Again, take this with a grain of salt since it really is nothing but theory.

EDIT: I forgot you don't have the Draenei hit aura. Replace Str of automaton with Bladebearer and it's similar.

Yes, this is what was said before the new ArP formula was developed. It is still true now but to a certain point. Before there was a strong drop of ArP effectiveness after about 600ish when it meant switching STR for ArP. Now it actually sliiiiightly passes STR around that point. Not enough to justify a full regemming mind you. For all intents and purposes I'm willing to say that STR and ArP are twins in single target DPS but STR still wins in any aoe situation.

For example the gear I listed earlier in the table. If I replace all of the gems with Bold(STR) instead of Fractured (ArP) I see a dps loss of about 25dps. 7000-25dps is really nothing to fret about. That same gear in an aoe Situation benefits substantially from going all STR with any aoe where DND or BB's are concerned.

Hi all, long time reader, first time poster


First thanks all you guys for the information you are putting on this forum.

I play a Blood DK (51/2/18) in a french guild exploring the new Ulduar content in heroic mode.

I did not read any post pointing at the coming point, so please excuse me if it has already been mentionned.


Pre 3.1 I used to DRW + pestilence on AoE fights. As Xaer mentionned it in the old post, DRW was casting pestilence on each target of our own pestilence, thus doing lots of damages.
Post 3.1 this is no more the case since pestilence does no damage. However it seems we've got the same behaviour with blood boil.

Fighting Auriaya last timer, I just IT + PS + Pestilence + DRW + BB x2 when she summons a bunch of little kitties. Here is my recount data for the kitties only (one summoning) :
- My own BB : 56k dmg
- My DRW BB : 512k dmg

My understanding is that DRW cast BB on each target, resulting in the following formula (should be mathematically valid with a huge amount of target) :

D = (n + 0.5 * n²) * x

where :
- D : total damage from BB using DRW
- n : number of target
- x : average BB damage on 1 target without DRW

I reproduce the same behaviour on Freya's trash mobs (pack of plants once the big one is down), but since there are less mobs the results were less impressive (Topping the chart at 23k dps including dpsing the big one)

Please excuse the lack of screenshots / WWS logs but I don't get them.

One more thing : I read on mmo-champion that BB will no more need a target to be casted. I assume this will also correct this behaviour.

Please record and post results. Also, what rotations are you using?

None of this means anything without results.

Last week I was running with a 0/3 Morbity 5/5 nec 3/3 bcb build and was getting DC dmg around 11%. I switched this week to using a 3/3 morbity spec (I had 2/2 epidemic last week, and used my Non-NOTD spec this week). I got somewhere around 2% damage increase from DC, but my pet was near worthless on anything but XT. Either way, my 0/3 morb had quite a bit higher DC dmg than 6%.

I think the same conclusions can be drawn though: Nec is consistently 4.6-5% of my overall damage, and BcB is holding steady at 3%. From what data I have available, Morbity is falling decently below 1% damage per point, so I think dropping any points from Nec or BcB for morb is not a great idea. Note that this is WITHOUT the new sigil, so this could very well change with it.

WOL for 0/3 morbity (less familiarity with fights + rotation as a whole, first week of Ulduar)
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

WOL for 3/3 Morbity (Second week of Ulduar, no NOTD in spec)
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If you're unfamiliar with World of Logs, you'll have to go to the damage by spell tab to see breakdowns. Also, it does not yet merge pets into this tab for you, but pet damage is visible and attached to owners on the large damage done page, (each pet gets a dmg by spell page, but its not displayed simultaneously with your page)

Maybe im just retarded but im just not comprehending how a 20% bonus PER DISEASE on Heart Strike comes out to only 3% additional bonus on heart strike. 2 diseases would mean a 40% increase in damage, wouldnt that mean that heart strike hits literally 40% harder? Does it only appy to base strike damage? Or does it apply to strike damage after AP modifier? And if its that low of a number then shy is diseased that much better than diseaseless. Seems to me if that 20% is only that small of a gain, then the original disease adder would be pretty tiny as well. But since its not then that makes me think that 3% is a little odd.

I saw some equation on the page before but it just had numbers in it and didnt explain what the numbers meant. Momma always told me dont just trust what someone says just because they said it. Can someone please explain the way this works with reasons for the numbers used?

Disease multipliers adjust the total damage of a strike after all other considerations. The T8 4P bonus increases the disease multiplier by 20% not to 20%. So for example:

HS has a disease multiplier of 10% per disease on the target.

HS = 3000 (assumed) damage before the disease multiplier.

After 2 Diseases HS = 3000*(1+10%*2 diseases) = 3600 damage.

With T8 4P and 2 Diseases HS = 3000*(1+(10%*(1.2 T8 4P)*2 Diseases =

HS = 3000*(1+12%*2 Diseases) = 3720 damage or a 3.33% ((3600-3720)/3600) damage increase.


This was probably explained either here or the old Blood thread. Hope that helps.

The simple version, shiv, is that the 20% bonus to HS disease damage is a 20% bonus TO THE 20% that it already gets. In other words, it's not HS*(20% + 20%), it's HS*(20% * 20%). 20% + 20% would clearly be 40%, as you state, making HS nearly 20% better, but 20% * 20% is only 24%, which is shy of a 4% increase.

EDIT: Gah. Methods beat me to it, and with better math. Good job.

I realize this is the correct math with the wording on the set bonus itself.. but it just seems... WAY too horrible to be a 4p bonus..

Has anyone looked at the actual spell code itself, or assembled the 4p bonus on the PTR? (To know 100% for if this is the case)

I'm just..... trying to be hopeful, heh.

Uh, a straight up 40% bonus damage to Heart Strike would be pretty ridiculously powerful. It would pretty much lock you into 4 pc T8 unless the T9 bonuses are stupidly powerful.