Maybe diseaseless Blood is better, I have no idea. Without the benefit of indepth analysis, and simply using my numbers posted above, Ill hypothesize a diseaseless and diseased rotation's damage (accounting for PS/BF, IT/FF, HS, and DS damage only).
Diseaseless Rotation: DS, DS, HS, HS
My average DS hit for ~6796 damage. x 4 = 27184 damage
My average HS hit for 4641 with diseases. Some have said that diseases add 1-1.5k damage, so Ill lowball that and reduce HS's damage by only 500.
So, average diseaseless HS hits for 3867. x4 = 15470 damage
Total damage of 1 diseaseless rotation: 42654 damage
Diseased Rotation: PS, IT, HS, HS, DS. DS, HS, HS, HS, HS, DS. Repeat.
My average PS was ~2034
My average IT was ~1284
My average Blood Plague ticked for ~468
My average Frost Fever ticked for ~463
All of those numbers were without Ebon Plague or Crypt Fever.
So, 1 PS and Blood Plague ticks + 1 IT and Frost Fever ticks = 8904 damage.
Average DS hits for ~6796. x2 = 13592 damage
Average diseased HS hits for 4641. x6 = 27846 damage
Total damage of 1 rotation: 50342 damage.
Thats a 30.6% increase in damage. Even if you remove the last DS (even though I always do get a 3rd DS in before reapplying PS/IT) and count that as part of the next rotation, the diseased damage comes out to 50432. Which still comes out to a 15% increase in damage over a diseaseless rotation. And all of this is under optimal conditions for diseaseless Blood. If the 1-1.5k disparity between diseased HS's and diseaseless HS's is true, then the diseased rotation gains an even bigger damage advantage, not to mention youre getting less procs of Sudden Doom.
And dont forget, the PS/IT/BF/FF damage is all without Ebon Plague or Crypt Fever.
Maybe diseaseless will be better going forward...but right now, diseased Blood appears to be much stronger.
Fixed your diseased rotation damage because you only get 2 DS in the disease rotation.
DS IT PS HS HS - HS HS DS HS HS (or whatever pattern you want to use)
Also, to figure out what HS should hit for without diseases, you simply divide by 1.2 (gets rid of the 20% dmg bonus from diseases).
Also, PS doesn't get any benefit from EP or CF, just the BP disease.
If he were to use HSx8 then the damage would be up to ~44528.
Still, disease 50342 > diseaseless 44528, no arguing it. The only issue is that the diseaseless benefits more from Wpn Dmg increases and ArPen, but even with max ArPen I think that at BEST diseaseless will be on par with diseased and there isn't a point where it would ever be better.
On a separate note, it seems that DRW generates an inordinate amount of attacks when Blood Boil is used. Here's the WWS from our Auriaya kill last night, you can see that while I hit with Blood Boil 302 times for the entire with only 20% uptime my DRW hit with Blood Boil 392 times and accounted for 10% of my total damage. I've noticed this a few other times but this is the most obvious I've seen it in the numbers. This happened across multiple pulls so it should be easily reproducible if people want to test it, I assume it's a bug as I seriously doubt DRW is meant to have that much AoE burst.
It was mentioned briefly earlier, I think, that DRW is treating Blood Boil similar to the way it was treating Pestilence. For every target you hit with pestilence, it would cast a pestilence on. Someone mentioned it is doing the same with Blood Boil. Very useful information to have and to take advantage of while it's in its current state.
I'm still fumbling with my Blood spec getting results all over the map in Ulduar for both disease and diseaseless testing; however, I'd disagree with you regarding AOTD in Ulduar: it's pretty darned good.
Flame Leviathan: moot point
Ignis: You may be able to bust it out right on the pull but it's a possible guild wiper later (molten adds), not recommended
Razorscale: You can pop before one of the ground phases, but it's better during the non-tethered ground phase since it is something of a DPS race at that point.
XT-002: Toss before Heart dropping. Good times here.
Kologarn: Can be used on the Right Arm if you're DPSing that, or perhaps the body; however, be careful as the 25 man Rubble have a nasty PBAoE which can wipe the raid if used poorly. I don't remember that mechanic on 10 man but it might be a problem there too. Probably just throw right off the top and be done with it.
Assembly of Iron: Initial Steelbreaker if you're doing non Hard mode, or perhaps Stormcaller at the end if he's pathing to the other side of the room during his air phase, not tested well here. I wouldn't recommend it with one down and Runemaster still up, too RNGish on Rune of Death.
Auriaya: Jury's still out on initial pull at least in my experience, I didn't try it because we were having so many problems anyway, but if it soaks a pounce it might be a godsend; however, it's going to be a crap shoot regardless given the timer even if it does work until the pull reliably can happen anyway after which it wouldn't be needed. Beyond that after the sentries are down, go nuts for the most part. Feral defender is usually a moot point unless you're going for the achievement, but if you kill the crazy kitty you can toss it without problems during the respawn timer.
Hodir: I was really surprised at the army resilience here, extremely pleasantly surprised even though it might've been somewhat RNGish since I wasn't paying close attention but it was effective in both 10 and 25 man. You can throw during a flash freeze phase if for whatever reason you're not on a safety patch that is in melee range for Hodir instead of IT spamming or whatever. You may get an extra bonus since some tanks will move Hodir upon seeing incoming ice drops on melee.
Freya: It would be a mess here during the add phases, definitely don't do it then. Probably would be solid post add DPS time but I didn't try it.
Thorim: RNG issues on the lightning cone, don't think there's any reasonable method for not running into it on the actual boss fight. Theorizing however, I think in the arena it could be useful especially if your group is having problems with the adds down there, and certainly it'd be beneficial on the gauntlet phase if you're there on a mini without much problem.
Mimiron: drop it on the transition to phase 4 after you've finished up the adds. Very, very good here.
Vezax: You can throw it effectively any time dependent on your role, if you're primary interrupting make sure you do it right after one of his flame calls as to not miss one potentially.
Yogg: I haven't seen this fight other than in videos so can't offer any first hand experience.
Algalon: same as above of course.
Vezax can throw the flame thingy back to back, so make sure to do it with MF on cooldown and it's not during the kite phase.
DO NOT THROW ARMY ON P1 OR P3 YOGG.
DO NOT THROW ARMY ON P1 OR P3 YOGG.
With that out of the way, you can throw army after taking a portal to yogg's brain and killing the tentacles. Army will stay down and dps the brain after you have to port back up.
It's easier to itemize around Rune Edge using the assumption that you'll later upgrade to Voldrethar, as neither have hit or exp. You wouldn't have to worry about trying to squeeze either stat into your gear set up later if you've been planning around your weapon not having any in the first place.
Rune Edge will give you around half the AP (give or take), but it also has a good bit of crit and ArP, so I think that may outweigh the AP you get from Worldcarver's Str in the end, considering ArP is weighed almost as highly as Str.
What is the opinion on Worldcarver vs. Rune Edge for the first Naxx replacement weapon?
Based on normalized stat weights I see Worldcarver ahead, but provided you at or close to the Expertise cap, Rune Edge surpasses it. I also think Rune Edge is easier to itemize around, while waiting for Voldrethar.
On another note, has anyone picked up Ironsoul and noticed a DPS increase with that over Betrayer? Depending on stat priority it appears that this could a slight upgrade despite the ~10 weapon DPS loss.
On another note, has anyone picked up Ironsoul and noticed a DPS increase with that over Betrayer? Depending on stat priority it appears that this could a slight upgrade despite the ~10 weapon DPS loss.
Going by Methods numbers on page 12 and assuming I still know how to do math they are just about even with Ironsoul coming in at ~2741 and Betrayer coming in at ~2744. This is just going by the numbers so it's by no means a definitive statement, but it doesn't appear to really be an upgrade to Betrayer. It is however a very viable alternative if you aren't running Naxx regularly anymore. I may try to snag one just for the racial bonus so I can dump a little more expertise.
Just as an addition to Swarly, if you have a racial expertise bonus, Ironsoul does appear to be slightly better than Betrayer. I know Methods had a number for weapon dps weighting, but there was nothing on speed weighting. Everything I have seen says that slower weapons (Ironsoul) are still very slightly better. Is it possible that this factor makes Ironsoul better without any racial?
Just as an addition to Swarly, if you have a racial expertise bonus, Ironsoul does appear to be slightly better than Betrayer. I know Methods had a number for weapon dps weighting, but there was nothing on speed weighting. Everything I have seen says that slower weapons (Ironsoul) are still very slightly better. Is it possible that this factor makes Ironsoul better without any racial?
This is only the case when the slower wpn has higher top end damage than the fast one. Slow wpns are favorable because, while they may have the same or slightly lower dps, they do a higher range of damage when they hit. In this case, Ironsoul does not have higher top end damage, meaning it's "speed" rating to dps rating ratio is still lower than betrayer.
If I'm not mistaken Methods' weights a few pages back were normalized, or partially normalized. I think the weighting on Agility might be a bit too high as well as the weighting on Haste, both of which the Betrayer has. On paper to me anyway Ironsoul looks to be a clear upgrade, but that doesn't always translate into the game. Does anyone have a parse out there using Ironsoul and one with Betrayer?
I think my issue with that is there is no clean exchange like that from gear at the moment. When you switch stats for ArP you are losing the value of those stats you exchanged. Instead of 100 ArP you would need 100ArP+value of stats lost. I'll look into this later to further my point.
Don't know if this helps any but here's a wowhead comparison between the loot build you suggested and the one Lushen suggested. Both are pretty comparible. Click here for wow head comparison
Lushen's set gains:
63 Agi
84 AP
101 Armor Pen
31 Hit
Method's set gains:
50 Sta
100 Str
54 Armor
83 Crit
56 Haste
EDIT: Forgot to mention that Lushen's is on the left and Method's is on the right
Wasn't the decision made to gem for straight STR instead of ARP? I know ARP is good but STR is still our strongest stat and you would benefit more from not only single target dps but aoe as well.
One thing that bugs me about most of the lists of BiS gear is that no one looks at hit/expertise capping. Maybe it's not theoretically a better choice, but I know that it royally screws my rotation if I miss anything. That said, why does no one consider taking Method's BiS (with 4pc bonus) and replacing Strength of the Automaton with Bladerbearer's Signet? You trade 36 ARP and 46 crit for 36 expertise and 46 hit. This is more of a dps boost and caps you in both.
One thing that bugs me about most of the lists of BiS gear is that no one looks at hit/expertise capping. Maybe it's not theoretically a better choice, but I know that it royally screws my rotation if I miss anything. That said, why does no one consider taking Method's BiS (with 4pc bonus) and replacing Strength of the Automaton with Bladerbearer's Signet? You trade 36 ARP and 46 crit for 36 expertise and 46 hit. This is more of a dps boost and caps you in both.
I picked up Bladebearer's the other night for this exact reason. On paper armor with other stats could appear better than hit/exp, but in a raid scenario missing eve a small percentage can and will back up a rotation. The problem with stat weighting is that each time a new piece of gear is equipped or taken away the weights change.
Now that I have the formula for calculating ArP I can't for the life of me figure out how to correctly compare it in relation to attack power to get an accurate stat weight. Once I can hammer down ALL the little stuff I'll be releasing my sheet to the public on a web page where you can calculate and compare gear stats based upon your own stats. It will factor in stats you'll be losing when exchanging for a new piece and should give us a pretty accurate BiS set provided I can even finish it (crosses fingers).
One thing that bugs me about most of the lists of BiS gear is that no one looks at hit/expertise capping. Maybe it's not theoretically a better choice, but I know that it royally screws my rotation if I miss anything. That said, why does no one consider taking Method's BiS (with 4pc bonus) and replacing Strength of the Automaton with Bladerbearer's Signet? You trade 36 ARP and 46 crit for 36 expertise and 46 hit. This is more of a dps boost and caps you in both.
That should put you at both hit cap and exp soft cap. You can sub out Voldrethar for any weapon before you get it, and Frigid Strength can be swapped with Might of the Leviathan if you swap one of the purple gems into the gloves or shoulders.
With 2/2 epidemic I have had 0 issues with not being exp capped before and after 3.1. I have tested several times against dummy and earlier in Naxx that maxing out str > exp (gems). I still want and have quite high expertise but I don't go blindly after the exp gear. I agree that with 1/2 epidemic getting to exp soft cap is quite mandatory but 2/2 gives so much more room for any changes in combat that it outweights any other talent point choice imo.
I'm currently following your discussions here regarding gear sets so that I can update the 'BiS' thread when some conclusions are drawn. Gear discussion could always move there too if you like but I think it's fine here -- the whole purpose of my thread was for when these spec threads are 100 pages long and all this gear discussion is lost in the crowd.
Kaejin: Your set there is better for expertise but unless I'm missing something still only comes out to 16. Add in 6 from talents and you're still only at 22. Swapping in Belt of the Titans puts you over the cap though, annoyingly, so it might be the best balance right now.
I do agree with the comments about ArPen stacking seeming fine in theory but in practice it's likely to be less practical if it means you're not close to hit/exp capped.
Don't know if this helps any but here's a wowhead comparison between the loot build you suggested and the one Lushen suggested. Both are pretty comparible. Click here for wow head comparison
Lushen's set gains:
63 Agi
84 AP
101 Armor Pen
31 Hit
Method's set gains:
50 Sta
100 Str
54 Armor
83 Crit
56 Haste
EDIT: Forgot to mention that Lushen's is on the left and Method's is on the right
Also, PS doesn't get any benefit from EP or CF, just the BP disease.
Yes, I know. But its a significant increase in damage, especially when u consider how much harder diseased HS's hit for.
The only issue is that the diseaseless benefits more from Wpn Dmg increases and ArPen, but even with max ArPen I think that at BEST diseaseless will be on par with diseased and there isn't a point where it would ever be better.
Doubtful that diseased will ever catch up. Were spending 2 GCDs to increase our main strikes damage by ~1-1.5k, according to some. Not only that, but an 8 HS diseaseless rotation is incredibly ugly, considering that Death Runes dont get used properly (if we have 4 death runes, the 2 Unholy Death Runes are used first, then the 2 Death Frost Runes).
Kaejin: Your set there is better for expertise but unless I'm missing something still only comes out to 16. Add in 6 from talents and you're still only at 22. Swapping in Belt of the Titans puts you over the cap though, annoyingly, so it might be the best balance right now.
I should probably have pointed out the fact that I am a human and would have 3 extra expertise with Voldrethar since it is a sword. If I wasn't a human, I would definitely grab the Belt of Titans over Girdle of Embers, and then drop hit somewhere else if possible.
I know that you can get away with not being expertise capped, but a miss or a dodge is zero dps for the gcd. Generally you wouldn't lose the rotation that much, but there is still that chance of getting dodged multiple times in a row, on top of bad situations in Ulduar. For example, my rotation gets messed up on Auraiya when the fear happens and I run back with BBDDDD. I wish blizzard would distinguish the death runes with their original rune type at times =/
Kaejin: Your set there is better for expertise but unless I'm missing something still only comes out to 16. Add in 6 from talents and you're still only at 22. Swapping in Belt of the Titans puts you over the cap though, annoyingly, so it might be the best balance right now.
I found the mistake I made. I was using chardev.org to keep track of stats and whatnot, and even though Blood Gorged has the correct tooltip on the site, it was still adding 5 expertise to the character sheet. I feel a bit foolish now.
Belt of the Titans will over put you over the cap by one expertise point, thankfully, which isn't terrible. Interestingly it has three slots (including the BS one, of course) that can provide for 3 more Str than Girdle of Embers when fully loaded with Str gems. I think it's a reasonable trade for the ArP and soft capping exp.
You'll get a lot more benefit from using diseases in 3.1, check out some of the 51/0/20, 51/2/18 or 50/0/21 specs in this thread.
DS instead of OB will be the main Death Rune generator as it now has the capability of doing more damage for a blood spec with the DS talent added in 3.1
Yes this is true but with this spec your putting its harder to use I tried to dps with this spec and all I truly found out was that your HS become on a CD and you have to wait depending on the proc for the 5th 1 or the 6th 1
I read all the comment here and i have to say, your rotation is simply wrong. I know many ppl will ignore me just for write this but in all your post PS is first and IT second. It just not work good in game.
Yes theory show it max dps but in theory, in game its not. IT can be cast from range PS in melee. So if go to any boss or mob you cast IT way before you reach it then global cd pass then in melee you cast PS and rest of the rotation.
In a real raid it save you from 0.8 to 1.2sec every time you start rotation, compared to "your" max dps one, after 5 hour in raid you just see the diference. If you ppl leave theory and go out in the "field" you will get my point.
Anyway i realy needed to say this couse i read over 500 comment in diferent places with this rotation wich is nothing more than great "on paper" dps, and making dps in game is whole other story. Sorry for my bad eng. hope you get my point
I read all the comment here and i have to say, your rotation is simply wrong. I know many ppl will ignore me just for write this but in all your post PS is first and IT second. It just not work good in game.
Yes theory show it max dps but in theory, in game its not. IT can be cast from range PS in melee. So if go to any boss or mob you cast IT way before you reach it then global cd pass then in melee you cast PS and rest of the rotation.
In a real raid it save you from 0.8 to 1.2sec every time you start rotation, compared to "your" max dps one, after 5 hour in raid you just see the diference. If you ppl leave theory and go out in the "field" you will get my point.
Anyway i realy needed to say this couse i read over 500 comment in diferent places with this rotation wich is nothing more than great "on paper" dps, and making dps in game is whole other story. Sorry for my bad eng. hope you get my point
/agree
You should only start a rotation with PS, if you're unholy for Rage of Rivendare to be unleashed asap, but as Blood (and Frost as well) there's no reason at all to start any rotation with PS.
Yes this is true but with this spec your putting its harder to use I tried to dps with this spec and all I truly found out was that your HS become on a CD and you have to wait depending on the proc for the 5th 1 or the 6th 1
I'm not sure that I would call a more GCD intensive rotation easier. With the diseased rotation the first iteration you'll only have enough rp for one death coil. But thereafter you should have plenty to fill in the deadspace between rune cooldowns.
Although if your looking at maintaining maximum damage for Deathstrike you could only use 1 Death Coil per rune dump period if you have more than 66rp. If you have at least 1 point in rpm then you could get 2 in and not effect Deathstrike damage at all.
04/23/09, 11:53 AM
