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Old 04/14/09, 12:06 PM   #26
Tikiman49
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Wyrmrest Accord
Yes, Necrosis isn't quite as good as it used to be and this is probably the standard 50/0/21 spec.

OP, mind putting up some links for the 3-4 main specs? There were some good ones a few pages back on the original thread in the Blood DPS FAQ. Or just c/p the FAQ over here ^_^

Last edited by Tikiman49 : 04/14/09 at 12:41 PM.

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Old 04/14/09, 12:11 PM   #27
Leaflock
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blackhand
I think the allocation of the last handful of points in Unholy is largely a matter of preference at this point. There are several talents beyond the first tier worth investing in: Ravenous Dead, Morbidity, Epidemic, Necrosis, BCB, Night of the Dead. One point here or there isn't a huge deal (1/2 Epidemic being the only arguably mandatory minimum), and largely depends on how much you use your ghoul.

I see a lot of these specs dropping DRW for UB, though, which seems a bit of a foolish overreaction to the nerf. Fewer AOE situations plus more fights demanding burst dps makes the decision clear to me. There are more possible circumstances in Ulduar where UB is undesirable compared to DRW being undesirable. Our base AOE abilities in DND and BB are actually pretty substantial as it is, and they don't require us to stand in melee range of the mobs, either.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Tikiman49 View Post
Yes, Necrosis has been nerfed to hell...
... and is still worth 1% of your damage per point. This is the same deal-- screaming "nerf" while ignoring the present value of the talent doesn't give you the whole picture.

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Old 04/14/09, 12:15 PM   #28
Bllets
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Death Knight
 
Stormscale (EU)
Originally Posted by Tikiman49 View Post
Yes, Necrosis has been nerfed to hell and this is probably the standard 50/0/21 spec.

OP, mind putting up some links for the 3-4 main specs? There were some good ones a few pages back on the original thread in the Blood DPS FAQ. Or just c/p the FAQ over here ^_^
Currently Necrosis is the same in 3.1 as in 3.0.9?

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Old 04/14/09, 12:16 PM   #29
Grondarg
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Lightning's Blade
Originally Posted by Bonecaller View Post
The patch notes are kind of not actual. There are some recent changes that are on ptr, but not right on patch notes (eg death strike glyph, Death Strike: The amount of healing per damage done has been reduced by 20%. and so on).

So i dont believe that the patch notes are really up to the current ptr built. But it doesnt make a lot of sense, we will have to when patch is deployed.
The patch notes extracted from the actual patch was posted on MMO champion last night. You can find them here:
Patch 3.1 - Patch Notes

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Old 04/14/09, 12:36 PM   #30
Syrvantez
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Human Death Knight
 
Laughing Skull
Regarding DRW vs UB, it is, by many people, and overreaction to the nerf. The issue with DRW is this: how long are we going to be dpsing single target versus AoE? Truthfully we won't know with 100% certainty until we begin to see Ulduar clears, and subsequently it will be very dependent. For example:

Scenario 1: Your raid runs very AoE heavy, and more often then not, your targets die relatively quickly. While you execute your rotation nearly perfect each time.

Scenario 2: Your raid runs very melee heavy, and most of your trash and boss adds wind up right in the thick of melee combat.

Obviously these are idealized conditions, and we all run with various raid comps but most of you can see where I'm going with this. If you have boss adds, trash, or just typically have significant amounts of time spent in combat where AoE will generate more dps then obviously it will be an upgrade to take UB over DRW. So if you run in a raid that fits Scenario 1, then DRW will probably be your pick, as Scenario 2 will favor UB for dps. The math has been done multiple times in the previous thread and the honest answer to this is "It Depends."

My recommendation is rather than speculate endlessly about which is "truly better" run a week of Ulduar with each spec and compare your WWS. Then consider the situations of the two (how often were you dead, afk, not paying attention, etc.) and figure it out. Another major key component is micromanagement.

Micro-managing your DK is very important if you choose to go with a DRW spec as you need to bank RP in order to use it to its maximum efficiency. The other major shortfall is hit mechanics, you suffer a dps loss whenever your attacks do not land, and when you have such a limited uptime on DRW, that can cost you. Essentially if you are good at timing, micromanagement, banking RP, and timing your CDs well, then DRW will probably be competitive. If you aren't very attentive, then the set-it-and-forget-it mentality of UB might be more up your alley.

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Old 04/14/09, 12:41 PM   #31
Tikiman49
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Wyrmrest Accord
From everything I've read, the value of Necrosis is less than the value of Morbidity, per point. I probably should have worded that better, my mistake.

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Old 04/14/09, 12:55 PM   #32
Darq111
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by Magmon View Post
Ideal Gear (Best-in-Slot) list would be nice addition to this post.
Would be nice idd. Used to use:
MaxDps
But I don't know if it counts the new haste/arp changes.

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Old 04/14/09, 1:03 PM   #33
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
DS is used to generate Death Runes for HS, or to heal if you're in a bind. HS is your bread and butter.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

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Old 04/14/09, 1:24 PM   #34
Redantisocial
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Alleria
Originally Posted by wolfetx View Post
Ok so i been using the 51/0/20 Disease Free spec. what has changed and is this still a viable spec?
You'll get a lot more benefit from using diseases in 3.1, check out some of the 51/0/20, 51/2/18 or 50/0/21 specs in this thread.

DS instead of OB will be the main Death Rune generator as it now has the capability of doing more damage for a blood spec with the DS talent added in 3.1

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Old 04/14/09, 1:26 PM   #35
Ziu
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Bloodhoof
No, since the diseases are going to be scaling on a percentage rather than a flat value, diseaseless is no longer viable

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Old 04/14/09, 1:29 PM   #36
Siyx
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Doomhammer
Even post-nerf, Necrosis is still worth ~1% damage per point (~5% of overall damage). From a single target perspective (ignoring the reduced DnD cooldown), I'm getting Morbidity coming out at a ~0.57% increase in overall damage per point. The talent would probably gain slight value if you find yourself making use of DnD more often.

I ran a sim using 0/3 Morbidity..

167739101 Death Coil Damage over 100 Hours equaling ~9% of the overall damage

With 3/3 Morbidity we see a 15% increase in Death Coil damage (167739101*0.15) = 25160865.15

Increasing total Death Coil damage (167739101+25160865.15) = 192899966.2

Overall damage done over 100 Hours was 1809339202

After factoring in Morbidity % of overall damage from Death Coil (192899966.2/1809339202) = 0.10661349 or 10.7%

% of overall damage from Death Coil increased from ~9% to 10.7% (1.7% increase) from having 3/3 Morbidity

(1.7/3) = ~0.57% overall damage increase per point in Morbidity
Obviously the results will vary a bit and it was based on a sim but I do believe that Necrosis is still worth more than Morbidity as a 51/0/20 build (or close variant).

As far as Best in Slot gear goes, you are going to want to pick up 4 Piece T8 as it is quite good for Blood with the best off-set piece known so far being the Plated Leggings of Ruination.

Last edited by Siyx : 04/14/09 at 1:35 PM.

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Old 04/14/09, 1:43 PM   #37
Redantisocial
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Alleria
Going 51/2/18, Glyph of Death Strike for sure, after that there's a bit of variation, but Glyph of DRW and Glyph of Dark Death are very popular

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Old 04/14/09, 1:45 PM   #38
iv4
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
50/0/21

this is the build i'm looking at.

i can't understand taking morbidity over necrosis, especially with less aoe in ulduar.
even if aoe is the case, i would rather use UB over DnD, saving my runes for single target.

next....

Additional 20% (shadow dmg) on ALL auto attacks vs 15% on DC's...
auto attacks are free, and frequent. DC's are based on RP, and therefore limited.

is my logic flawed?


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Old 04/14/09, 1:49 PM   #39
Siyx
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by iv4 View Post
50/0/21

this is the build i'm looking at.

i can't understand taking morbidity over necrosis, especially with less aoe in ulduar.
even if aoe is the case, i would rather use UB over DnD, saving my runes for single target.

next....

Additional 20% (shadow dmg) on ALL auto attacks vs 15% on DC's...
auto attacks are free, and frequent. DC's are based on RP, and therefore limited.

is my logic flawed?

I agree with you on Necrosis > Morbidity for Blood builds (scroll up a few posts and I did a little napkin math on the subject) however I think it is fairly ridiculous to not take DRW with Blood builds. UB will never be able to compete with a well timed DRW, plain and simple.

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Old 04/14/09, 1:55 PM   #40
iv4
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Siyx View Post
I agree with you on Necrosis > Morbidity for Blood builds (scroll up a few posts and I did a little napkin math on the subject) however I think it is fairly ridiculous to not take DRW with Blood builds. UB will never be able to compete with a well timed DRW, plain and simple.
i just read your post with the math, and its great to have some numbers to back it up.

as for the DRW vs UB...its a toss up for me right now. i think im choosing UB strictly for the fact I don't have to worry about banking RP, and another cooldown. obviously, DRW is going to put out more dmg (when its up and i've managed to bank RP correctly). but i think UB will allow for more freedom.

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Old 04/14/09, 1:58 PM   #41
Mortul
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Kargath
They're not picking up Morbidity cause of DnD, they're picking it for the 15% DC damage. The reduce 15 CD for DnD is a bonus.

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Old 04/14/09, 1:59 PM   #42
jraschke11
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Elune
With the new benefit from haste, auto attacks are going to be doing a lot more damage.

I know pre 3.1 my white melee damage was my highest damage and was 28% of my damage.

I am going with a 51/2/18 build and I will be putting 5/5 points in to Necrosis and 3/3 in Blood Caked Blade.

As stated above, auto attacks are free and easy.

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Old 04/14/09, 2:02 PM   #43
salviastria
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Aszune
51/2/18 My 3.1 Spec

I find it silly that people would be taking UB over DRW. It came up in the old thread: if UB > DRW then blizzard will buff DRW or nerf UB. a 21 pt talent should not be > a 51 talent tend of story, and I tend to agree that people taking UB over DRW are especially over-reactive to the DRW nerf.

Also, I see a lot of people not taking Improved Blood Presence. There is a lot of potential aoe dmg in Ulduar, and passive 10% healing while you are dpsing is damn nice. IBP/MoB > Bloodworms by a long shot, imo.

Also, 2 pts in NotD for AotD on near-every boss pull. It may not show up in other people's recount, but it sure does on mine. I consider that to be worth 1 pt in necrosis.

Last edited by salviastria : 04/14/09 at 2:04 PM. Reason: spelling

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Old 04/14/09, 2:06 PM   #44
Siyx
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Doomhammer
I don't see the two points in RPM being that useful anymore with the much decreased maximum duration of DRW, the talent loses a lot of it's worth and the points can be better spent in Unholy in my opinion.

51/0/20 is the build I've had the most success with and is more than likely what I will be using.

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Old 04/14/09, 2:08 PM   #45
Tikiman49
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Wyrmrest Accord
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't BCB a much better per-point talent than Necrosis?

[Edit] In response to 2/2 RPM, I believe some math was done around page 80 of the old thread commenting that 130RP allows more death coils without losing the 26RP DS buff, however, I don't have any problem getting 26RP before using DS with proper placement in rotations... so I don't really understand that math.

According to the standard rotation, you will either have IT-PS-HS-HS or X number of Heart Strikes before using Death Strike... meaning a minimum of 30RP even if you start at 0.

I guess it really comes down to how much damage DRW does in those 3 seconds. With the 3.5 weapon speed, you could get unlucky and not even get a white hit in that time.

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Old 04/14/09, 2:13 PM   #46
Siyx
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Tikiman49 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't BCB a much better per-point talent than Necrosis?
Yes, and they're both worth more than RPM and Morbidity at this point so you can set it up so you don't have to choose between the Necrosis and BCB if you want to.

From raid testing, dummy testing (I know), and simulations I cannot get RPM to out preform having those two points in Unholy, even if the difference is something like ~50 DPS.

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Old 04/14/09, 2:19 PM   #47
Eej
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Eej
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I'm not really sure if UB will ever beat out DRW for anything, but I'm sure if there are fights which really need you to squeeze out as much AE as you can, you can just dual spec two Blood DPS specs with just DRW and UB swapped around.

I mean, it's not like everyone is an off-tank, right?

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Old 04/14/09, 2:23 PM   #48
Siyx
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Eej View Post
I'm not really sure if UB will ever beat out DRW for anything, but I'm sure if there are fights which really need you to squeeze out as much AE as you can, you can just dual spec two Blood DPS specs with just DRW and UB swapped around.

I mean, it's not like everyone is an off-tank, right?
It would be far more beneficial to have your second spec full Unholy for AoE heavy situations, rather than having an alternate Blood spec with UB over DRW.

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Old 04/14/09, 2:39 PM   #49
CapitalistPig
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Blackwing Lair
I ran Blood 51/20 disease-less and loved it. When I heard of the DRW nerf and other changes, i went ahead and specced 17/0/54 to get used to Unholy before 3.1. My suprise was in getting quite a bit of dps improvement with the unholy spec. I understand this thread is about maximizing a blood spec, but is it time to actually figure out which spec is "better" in a raid situation and figure out wether or not blizzard just made blood spec a leveling only spec? Would like to see some input from some of you PTR regulars. I'm really concerned that my days of blood spec are over (until 3.2 or 3.3 anyways).

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Old 04/14/09, 2:42 PM   #50
Tikiman49
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
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Originally Posted by CapitalistPig View Post
I ran Blood 51/20 disease-less and loved it. When I heard of the DRW nerf and other changes, i went ahead and specced 17/0/54 to get used to Unholy before 3.1. My suprise was in getting quite a bit of dps improvement with the unholy spec. I understand this thread is about maximizing a blood spec, but is it time to actually figure out which spec is "better" in a raid situation and figure out wether or not blizzard just made blood spec a leveling only spec? Would like to see some input from some of you PTR regulars. I'm really concerned that my days of blood spec are over (until 3.2 or 3.3 anyways).
The order of the dps of each spec type is roughly: Blood ~= Unholy > Frost > DW. Discussion about it in the 3.1 Changes thread.

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